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#201262 - 11/06/05 08:18 PM elbow down?
chickenchaser Offline

Registered: 10/29/05
Posts: 204
Loc: Auburn,New York,U.S.A.
first off i study shorinkan shorin-ryu karate . when i first started training my sensei wanted us to use a full turn of the fist when punching ending up having the elbow pointing away from the body. as of late though he has been telling us to change that and only do 3/4 turn of the fist and have the elbow end up pointing towards the ground. and i have found some definite power benefits in this technique. so i was just wondering if any of your styles use this technique? and what style do you study? and if your style doesn't use this techinque just to try it out because not only does it help my power out but i was always having a problem with making my arm completely straight which is bad for the elbow because you can hyper extend it so if you don't use it try it out if you can figure it out from my explanation....
"The early bird gets the worm, but the bird in a hurry only gets half of one." --- Sensei Corey

#201263 - 11/06/05 08:34 PM Re: elbow down? [Re: chickenchaser]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I believe that the full twist punch is a sport version. I believe it will get you hurt in a real situation. the 3/4 punch makes for proper bone and muscle alignment. I think it should be taught that way from the start. Your instructor may have just found out about this or changed his mind. Maybe he just wanted to see if you were serious enough to be taught the "real stuff" .
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

#201264 - 11/06/05 08:57 PM Re: elbow down? [Re: BrianS]
JeremyK Offline

Registered: 07/08/05
Posts: 8
I study Uechi-ryu and have also done some Goju-ryu and all the kata seem to do a full turn. It's fine as long as you keep your shoulder down and lats engaged.

#201265 - 11/06/05 08:59 PM Re: elbow down? [Re: BrianS]
Bushi_no_ki Offline

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1669
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Brian, I was always taught to make the weapon fit the target, and in line with that, the horizontal punch (full turn) is usually used below the neck, with some exceptions, and vertical fist (3/4 turn) is used on the head/face. You are right about bone alignment if you use the wrong punch on the wrong target (eg horizontal to the nose, where punching straight on does not allow the knuckles to make contact first).

#201266 - 11/06/05 09:10 PM Re: elbow down? [Re: JeremyK]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
The kata won't "do" a full turn unless you are taught that way.
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

#201267 - 11/06/05 09:14 PM Re: elbow down? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas

I see what you mean to a certain extent. The horizontal or vertical fists don't work for me under either circumstance straight on. With the 3/4 you can punch high or low,doesn't matter,the first two kcuckles will make contact without wrenching your own arm.
The exceptions would be hooks and uppercuts where a differen't part of the fist is making contact.
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

#201268 - 11/07/05 10:45 AM Re: elbow down? [Re: chickenchaser]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I see it simple as the full turn is for longer distance the 3/4 turn is for slightly shorter distance the under cut/no turn or 280 is for even closer.

I believe its a distance thing rather 1 better to use all the time over another. The full turn is harder to use soild in the face if you are shorter and the chin is as high as knuckle align properly unless you roll your shoulder like a overhand right. The verticle punch does this better albeit at slightly shorter range.

I think its a range/distance thing rather one punching technique better for all purpose thing.

#201269 - 11/07/05 11:09 AM Re: elbow down? [Re: Neko456]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I agree Neko, its about distance and point of contact.

I think the full twist is kept in kata to show penetration of technique.

Personally I hit with the 3/4 twist in most cases, penetrating with the full rotation - but the impact is at 3/4. my makiwara and heavy bag seem to agree tha tthis is best for me.
Jim Neeter

#201270 - 11/07/05 02:37 PM Re: elbow down? [Re: shoshinkan]
bo-ken Offline

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
I like to jab a lot so the full turn works well for me. I really haven't seen a 3/4 fist before unless you mean a vertical fist.

#201271 - 11/07/05 04:02 PM Re: elbow down? [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Yes, your sensei is correct. Elbow pointing down will accomodate 3/4 twist.

Bushi, a vertical fist is not the same as a 3/4 twist. Vertical (Tateken: Upright fist) is mainly for jabs. Full twist (Seiken - Horizontal fist) is mainly a training & kata form. 3/4 twist (Yama-ken) is when your index finger knuckle's position simulates the peak of a mountain ( ^ as you look down your extended arm). By canting the fist slightly, you achieve bone alignment & make for a superior punch.


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