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#200220 - 11/02/05 05:30 PM Knife Disarm...overhead
GodsSpartan Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 92
Loc: Someplace in Outer Space
Whut you guys do?

For me I would go for the standard disarm. Depending on the person and situation I would either throw them away from my body or bring the arm over my shoulder thus breaking the arm. When they hit the ground I'm still holding the knife hand as I drop a knee to the chest.(For restraining them) Then thier knife would go to thier throat and stay there so that they really know not to move.
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With a steady steady hand hand hammer hammer blade blade through your sweaty sweaty skin skin skin.

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#200221 - 11/02/05 05:46 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: GodsSpartan]
dogfacedboyuk1 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 116
Quote:

Whut you guys do?

For me I would go for the standard disarm. Depending on the person and situation I would either throw them away from my body or bring the arm over my shoulder thus breaking the arm. When they hit the ground I'm still holding the knife hand as I drop a knee to the chest.(For restraining them) Then thier knife would go to thier throat and stay there so that they really know not to move.




And how often have you practiced this move against someone coming at you and I mean really coming at you with a knife?

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#200222 - 11/02/05 07:53 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: dogfacedboyuk1]
Lord_Morningstar Offline
Member

Registered: 10/27/05
Posts: 36
I usually have more of a problem with attacks stabbing in from the side. I find that it is easier to evade a blade which is pointing straight down rather than one which is coming in. When it's straight down, you can dive in and strike the arm to deflect the course of the knife. When it is coming in, its much harder because the blade is in the way.

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#200223 - 11/02/05 08:08 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: GodsSpartan]
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
So we are in a slasher movie being attacked by a masked psycho killer who has already killed everyone else at the summer camp?
We are Vivian Leigh taking a shower in are hotel, run by a disturbed young man?
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I'm sorry, I was just imaging what you would look like with duct tape over your mouth

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#200224 - 11/02/05 09:14 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: dogfacedboyuk1]
h2whoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Fiji
Best technique for street fights:

Run Away .

Best Technique for armed attack (knife)

Run Away Fast

Best technique for armed attack (guns)

I am not above crying and begging for my life!!


Seriously, I would hope that in those situations I would take it on intelligently, quickly and efficiently. With minimum damage to myself and my hounoured enemy!!
_________________________
No matter how fashionable it is on Krypton, I will not wear my underwear on the outside of my Gi!!

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#200225 - 11/02/05 09:51 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: h2whoa]
GodsSpartan Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 92
Loc: Someplace in Outer Space
sigh
_________________________
With a steady steady hand hand hammer hammer blade blade through your sweaty sweaty skin skin skin.

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#200226 - 11/02/05 10:09 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: GodsSpartan]
h2whoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Fiji
Quote:

sigh




okay, here I would grab the wrist of the handcoming down, place my other hand on his shoulder, then I would knee him in the nuts. Then I would RUN!!!!!

Or this:

http://www.yrjj.net/Udekudema.html

Then I would RUN!!!!!

Do you feel better.

*bows respectfully*
_________________________
No matter how fashionable it is on Krypton, I will not wear my underwear on the outside of my Gi!!

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#200227 - 11/03/05 12:31 AM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: h2whoa]
UofM Shorin Ryu Offline
Resident Forum Breakdancer

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 981
Why not take step 3 and just guide the knife into his leg r groin? His forward/downward motion will just carry the knife right to the target. Good ol' redirection! Make the dude stab himself! HAHA!
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#200228 - 11/03/05 12:06 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: h2whoa]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Side note: In a gun situation, running bent over in a zig-zag fashion apparently works pretty well, keeping to cover as much as you can. Most people can't aim well with a pistol beyond, say, 20 metres so once you make it to that distance you're a bit safer, unless they're a sharpshooter. Secondly, I'd say get out of line-of-sight as quickly as possible. If they can't see you they cant shoot you can they?

Of course if you're close enough, you could try a disarm but that's going to be pretty risky. I personally think that at extreme close range a knife is probably more dangerous than a pistol, and certainly more dangerous than a rifle (as long as there's no bayonette).
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Self Defense
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#200229 - 11/03/05 12:20 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: GodsSpartan]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
"Like most beginners, you attacked me WRONG!"- Jim Carey

This clip illustrates the futility and silliness generally associated with preplanned and coordinated knife defense moves.
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www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#200230 - 11/03/05 01:22 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: Fletch1]
ArcaneOne Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1
There is, of course, the old standby of a strong front kick to the body before they even get into range. If that doesn't solve the problem, reverse punch to the more delicate areas of the head. Granted, some people have longer arms than others, but one would be hard pressed to find someone with longer arms than nearly anyone's legs.

The more simple, the better.

Respectfully.

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#200231 - 11/03/05 03:04 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: GodsSpartan]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Overhead knife attacks "in the dojo" are the easiest to disarm, there are so many to choose from but if you think you can get a free bee leason that works over a computer...for get it, you need hands on for knife disarm techniques leasons. sorry.
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The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#200232 - 11/03/05 04:39 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: UofM Shorin Ryu]
fattts14 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 224
Loc: T.O. On, Can
I agree 100%. Redirect the knife into the attackers leg. It's not even really a "redirect" just keep the momentum going. Now the other option might be a little difficult to explain or for you guyd to understand but I'll give it a go.
With the mirrored hand to the knife, redirect the attack to your other arm, catching the wrist of the knife hand between the middle of your forearm and the middle of your bicep. Close the gap between you and the attacker so that his knife hand is trapped in the "V" of your arm and the blade is pointing to the outside of your body. You can then thrust the knife into your attacker's chest or neck using your shoulder. Remember that you may have to sacrafice a cut or two, to save your life. It will be worth it in the end.
_________________________
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#200233 - 11/03/05 08:42 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: GodsSpartan]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....Overhead x-block, then slow-motion run up the thigh and chest then, Wham, Bam, nidan geri to the head followed by somersault and landing in smart pose ready for the next guy.y.yy..yyy.y....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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#200234 - 11/19/05 08:23 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: McSensei]
Malachi Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 51
Loc: Seattle, Washington
Quote:

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....Overhead x-block, then slow-motion run up the thigh and chest then, Wham, Bam, nidan geri to the head followed by somersault and landing in smart pose ready for the next guy.y.yy..yyy.y....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz







Actually, if someone seriously interested in knife training, I highly suggest some of the escrima/kali/arnis systems out there. there fun to do, and great additions to traditional systems. and they do a lot of knife fighting.

personally, it depend on alal the environment variables. If I have a knife too, different story. If this is where you dont' have one, then I would probably use a deflection or redirection like morningstar. allow his energy to continue down and go for vitals inside, like eyes and throat. and assume your going to get cut.

Quote:

Best technique for street fights:

Run Away .

Best Technique for armed attack (knife)

Run Away Fast

Best technique for armed attack (guns)

I am not above crying and begging for my life!!





a martial artists greatest weapons are his feet

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#200235 - 11/19/05 09:36 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: Malachi]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Actually, if someone seriously interested in knife training, I highly suggest some of the escrima/kali/arnis systems out there. there fun to do, and great additions to traditional systems. and they do a lot of knife fighting.





Where "disarm" literally means dis-arm.

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#200236 - 11/19/05 10:42 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: GodsSpartan]
TaeKwonMiles Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Cincinati, Ohio, United States
They already have downward momentum going to you can us it and A) execute an upper side kick to their arm pit and dislocate their shoulder joint,
B) allow them to keeping going down and step to the side and help them drive the knife into their stomach.
C) step inside, grab their hand and twist their arm behind there back by cross stepping after grabbin their hand.
D) if you want others email me.

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#200237 - 11/20/05 03:22 AM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: TaeKwonMiles]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
A) I don't think so.
B) Maybe... but I think chances of actually pulling it of are quite slim... there are way better options...
C) Possibly, but...why? Where is the knife pointing now?
D) I'll pass thanks.

How long have you actually been practising knife disarms?

And since no one has mentioned this yet.... perhaps you should find a competent instructor and seek professional advice.



Edited by eyrie (11/20/05 04:14 AM)

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#200238 - 11/20/05 06:11 AM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: Malachi]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

a martial artists greatest weapons are his feet



I disagree. The greatest weapon anyone has is their brain.

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#200239 - 11/21/05 10:48 AM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: h2whoa]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

Best technique for street fights:

Run Away .

Best Technique for armed attack (knife)

Run Away Fast







On this..we agree!

There are two losers in any knife fight...one goes to the Emergency Room...the other to the Morgue.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#200240 - 12/07/05 09:43 AM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: RangerG]
dud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 96
Whatever I would do IF I couldn´t run, it would include control of the weapon hand with my both hands, off balance and if I can throwing him against a wall, traffic coming, electricity, whatever, and then run like hell to get my own weapon or to scape.
Of course, easier said than done. Grabbing a hand on the middle os the night, stress, speed, blood, sweat and tears, AIN´T EASY!

William E FAirbairn was a genious, and said that against a knife in trained hands...no defense. I have trained with good Arnis practicers and I say BS to all knife deffenses I see around being teaching. And this is in a DOjo... on the Street... my best martial art will be RUN - DO.
_________________________
I won´t fight, I will Kill.

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#200241 - 12/14/05 01:08 AM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: h2whoa]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#200242 - 12/14/05 01:44 AM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: Fletch1]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:



http://www.yrjj.net/Udekudema.html






ugh.




Double ugh.....prearranged garbage.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#200243 - 12/27/05 11:35 AM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: h2whoa]
mean_fighter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 160
Lets all keep in mind that being a martial artist (a good one) only slightly decreases the chance of you getting cut not stabbed.

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#200244 - 12/27/05 04:30 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: mean_fighter]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
Well, all I can say is there are a whole lot of people throughout human history who seem to disagree with you on the viability of knife disarms, Achille Marozzo for one:

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManuals/Marozzo/p187.jpg

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManuals/Marozzo/p193.jpg

I've never heard one of the old masters refer to knife disarms as "prearranged garbage". They're something that turns up quite often in fighting manuals.

Paulus Hector Mair teaches the 'guide into the leg' defense, and it's the first knife disarm we learn in Hapkido. Korea is thousands of miles away from Germany, do you really think we'd see exactly the same techniques if they were not effective?

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#200245 - 12/27/05 04:50 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: dud]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Very few arnis teach this strike unless as a final kill, it one of the more powerful stabs but its slow. I believe knife defense are valid and possible, even arnis and silat (all MAs teach it) teaches empty hand vs. the knife. Though obviously a disadvanatge, its possible to defend against.

But I really think in a practicle sense the thing is to defend unarmed until you can even the odds or get a stalemate. A chair bewteen you or a red brick or broken beer bottle. The man with the weapon has the advantage, get one.

Don't stay inside fighting a knife thats freely moving, if you have control never let go until he's injured serverly or disarmed. In a situation like that u might as well throw everything you got at him, its your only chance.
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DBAckerson

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#200246 - 12/27/05 04:51 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: Subedei]
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
The problem with this whole knife defense issue is that when done properly, you will never see it coming. This is what Fairburn was refering to. Attacking someone with a knife is an assasination. You will not see it , other than fakes, fonies, wanta be SF types, kids and tv anyone else dueling with a knife. It just does not happen in the pretense that is taught at your local dojo. To include all that civilian kali bs.
If I am going to use a knife on you, I will not show it, I will try to ambush or blind side you and I will stab you until you fall to the ground. Depending on the situation I may follow up with more stabs or escape the scene. Now how do you defend against this. It is a kin to get hit in the back of the head with a baseball bat.
If you happen to be on the un-lucky end of an knife attack your only recourse is to beat the living day lights out of the attacker by any means possible. No fancy moves just pure aggression and hopfully you have a hammer or something in your hand. Forget kotegeshi type moves or that BS that Fletch posted, it doesn't work ever...except when someone is uke compliant.
Pure hostile brute caveman aggression is the only offensive counter to a knife attack. How you do it is circumstantial. Your only thought process is ending the life of your attacker. Your Aikido class will not teach you that.


Edited by Ed Glasheen (12/27/05 05:02 PM)

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#200247 - 12/27/05 05:08 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: Ed Glasheen]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
Quote:

The problem with this whole knife defense issue is that when done properly, you will never see it coming. This is what Fairburn was refering to. Attacking someone with a knife is an assasination. You will not see it , other than fakes, fonies, wanta be SF types, kids and tv anyone else dueling with a knife. It just does not happen in the pretense that is taught at you local dojo. To include all that civilian kali bs.
If I am going to use a knife on you, I will not show it, I will try to ambush or blind side you and I will stab you until you fall to the ground. Depending on the situation I may follow up with more stabs or escape the scene. Now how do you defend against this. It is a kin to get hit in the back of the head with a baseball bat.
If you happen to be on the un-lucky end of an knife attack your only recourse is to beat the living day lights out of the attacker by any means possible. No fancy moves just pure aggression and hopfully you have a hammer or something in your hand. Forget kotegeshi type moves or that BS that Fletch posted, it doesn't work ever...except when someone is uke compliant.
Pure hostile brute caveman aggression is the only offensive counter to a knife attack. How you do it is circumstantial. Your only thought process is ending the life of your attacker. Your Aikido class will not teach you that.




I believe this attitude Ed, is why they haven't worked for you. Uncontrolled aggression is practically begging to be stabbed.

I stand by my assertion that if you can see the attack coming you can effectively defend against it. If you're caught completely unaware you're either facing someone very sneaky or you should have been paying more attention in a situation that's obviously headed towards violence. Either way you very well may survive and may be in fine condition to continue fighting, especially if you happen to be wearing thick clothing.

A study of swordfighting is very revealing as to what is required to actually incapacitate someone with a bladed weapon.


Edited by Subedei (12/27/05 07:22 PM)

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#200248 - 12/27/05 05:17 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: Subedei]
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Study swordfighting? like what Kendo? Aiki ken? even Kali? How many people walk around with swords? Not many. Last person I saw get killed was done with a screw driver. Not much sword play in that. Get real.


Edited by Ed Glasheen (12/27/05 05:17 PM)
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#200249 - 12/27/05 09:58 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: Ed Glasheen]
Mike_L Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 420
Loc: Rio Rancho NM/Louisville KY (U...
I just use a wrist lock with a sweep followed by a kick to the face for a knife disarm, who needs a sword?
_________________________
"There is no such thing as Perfection... Only excellence"

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#200250 - 12/27/05 10:19 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: Mike_L]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
You misunderstand, I was only saying a study of swordfighting can be helpful in determining how easily the human body can be injured and that this would be useful in discussing the lethality of a knife attack.

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#200251 - 12/28/05 12:23 AM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: Subedei]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I've never heard one of the old masters refer to knife disarms as "prearranged garbage".




I'm much more enlightened than they were.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#200252 - 12/28/05 01:57 AM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: BrianS]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
I apologize for my presumptiousness assumptions, I didn't realize you were alive during a time when bladed weapons where the primary tools of war for entire countries.

You're obviously far more experienced than I imagined.

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#200253 - 12/28/05 02:08 AM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: Subedei]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Apology accepted.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#200254 - 12/28/05 12:49 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: BrianS]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
I found this article on another forum and though unfortunately I don't know who wrote it, from my own experience I would say that it is fairly accurate and backs up what Ed G was saying.

Gladiator School

Very recently, due to my line of work, I had the opportunity to speak with a parolee who had just been released from serving 15 years of hard time in some of the toughest maximum-security federal penitentiaries in Canada. In the beginning, we both tested the waters with one another and were more adversarial, much like the mongoose and the Cobra, but as trust and report
were established, I was able to get some very important insight into how violence inside some of the most violent prisons in Canada is taught, learned and used. This person, who I will call Bob, estimated that he had been involved in approximately 130-150 violent confrontations while inside. Bob has experienced all levels of violence while in our prison system, both armed and unarmed, and has seen death several times. IMO, based upon Bob’s experience with violence, he is a subject matter expert on the topic of real world violence, and as such, has a lot of valuable insight to offer to those of us who are willing to listen; listen and learn I did. I hope you the reader will also glean some information from what it is I am about to share with you.

On The Topic Of Weapons:

On this topic, Bob stated that weapons give one the advantage and as such, anything and everything could, and was, used as a real or improvised weapon. If an inmate could grab something to defend himself with, then one would do so without hesitation. There is no dishonor in this tactic.
The weapon of choice, surprise, surprise, home made edged or pointed weapons (shivs) made from anything and everything including paper and hardened plastic or impact weapons (piping).

When I asked Bob how he would use the shiv, he replied; “using the element of surprise”. More often than not, a stabbing inside the prison was never an advertised event. Bob stated that if the intended “mark” heard that he was being targeted, then the target would make every effort to hit his identified attacker first. According to Bob, this was why “surprise” was a primary tactic used in prison; it gave the attacker the advantage of first strike.

I next asked Bob, if he was going to hit someone with a Shiv, what would be his primary target. I expected to hear; throat, kidney, groin, instead Bob stated; “ under the armpit is the target of choice inside.” This tactic was quite bewildering to me until I asked Bob why. Bob stated that a shiv attack to the throat, kidney, or groin areas were not guaranteed to immediately debilitate/stop an adversary (thus giving the target the ability to fight back), whereas a horizontal strike directly into the armpit would cause an immediate puncture and collapse of a lung which, based upon his personal experience
and observations, always caused the victim to buckle (the first thing that came to mind here was the last fight scene from Gladiator the movie when Russell Crowe was stabbed in the side of his rib cage prior to entering the coliseum. Infact when I painted this scene to Bob, he laughed stating “ I saw that movie, in the real world that wound would have immediately collapsed Crowe” ) . From this position, further multiple attacks with the knife to the body could easily take place if needed.
Another interesting piece of information that I found bewildering was that most knife attacks in prisons did not end in death, which Bob stated was “deliberate”. Yes, some attacks were planned assassinations, but most were designed to cause maximum damage, via multiple hits, without causing death to send a message to the intended target. Having said this, Bob
further stated that tactics of first strike did not differentiate between the two, what differed was how the fight was finished; assassination vs. message.

On the topic of Knife defence, Bob stated that if an inmate heard he was being targeted, and could not go and hit the attacker first, then several tactics were used:

* Magazines, especially National Geographic, would be bound (usually via shoe laces) to the front, sides, and under the arm pits of the body, at which time a heavy sweater or coat was placed overtop. This was “prison made” body amour which worked very well in protecting one from both puncture and slash attacks.

* Hands on self-defence against a shiv attack were simple, direct, and offensive in nature. Bob stated that the most important thing learned and taught was to control the blade/shiv first and then just “pound” the guy to hell.

I had heard of the first tactic (magazine body armor) before, but found Bob’s second tactic (hands on skills) very inspiring due to the fact that this was what I teach as well. I asked Bob why controlling the shiv was so important to him, to which he stated, “ I want to prevent multiple hits to my body because that is what is going to likely kill me.” When I asked Bob why he just did not strike the shiv arm, and then proceed to slam and jam the guy into oblivion (a tactic taught by some RBSD instructors), he laughed and stated, “ have you ever seen what adrenaline and the focused intent to live can do to a guy, they become super human, they feel no pain, you can hit the guy all you want but if you don’t control that shiv, you are going to get hit multiple times, and it’s the multiple hits that will get you killed. This is even more of a reality if the guy is high on speed, coke, or just plain mental” IMO, one of the true golden nuggets of wisdom offered by Bob. Bob further stated that in a knife fight it was extremely important to keep forward momentum and to engage with rage taking the fight to the attacker.

On the Topic Of Empty Hand Self Defence:

Again, Bob stated that the use of weapons was the preferred method of self-defence, but if a weapon was not around, he would attack three primary targets :

1. EYES: Bob stated that if someone was blinded, it made it hard to fight effectively. Bob proceeded to show me how he would jam his fingertips into a person’s eyes; very similar to the finger jab taught by myself, Senshido, and some Military Combatives.

2. THROAT: Bob stated that this was his favorite target due to the fact that when hit, it almost always caused a gag reflex. Bob demonstrated the two ways he learned inside to attack the throat:

a. Web hand strike up and under line of sight
b. Open hand chop

3. GROIN: Of the three this was Bob’d least favorite, due to effectiveness, but if the target presented itself, he would take it. Bob stated that he would primarily target this area with his shin or tip of boot/shoe. Bob stated that when this one worked, most victims would bend over thus allowing one to easily control the head and body. In fact, we both laughed
because it was this technique that allowed me to take immediate control of him.

Other techniques utilized if the physical fight went to grapple/ground were bites, gouges, mouth hooking, and ear rips. On the topic of ear rips, Bob had seen this little beauty work on more than one occasion when rolling around on the ground with someone who he called a “wrestler.” As Bob stated; “Grab an ear and yank down as hard as you can. People immediately begin to panic not because of pain, but because of the large amount of blood that begins to flow about their face.”

The use of bludgeons (piping) was also very common inside prison. Again attacks here did not travel any specific lines of attack. When a body target presented itself, it was hit from anywhere and everywhere. Primary target in most cases was the head and neck. As Bob stated, “ knock the guy out, and the rest is easy” No truer words have been spoken in my opinion.

Bob emphasized that if he had to go hand to hand, it was only to allow him time to transition to a real or improvised weapon, if able, as quickly as possible. Another important golden nugget, and one that is preached by some of the more “credible” RBSD instructors.

Bob also shared with me that many of the traditional martial arts are offered inside our prison system; karate, TKD, Judo, Tai Chi. Bob stated that many who took these arts did so for self discipline, fitness, focus, and stress reduction. When I asked him if he felt these arts helped in any way when it came to real world self-defence, he laughed and stated, “they look pretty and teach people how to dance.” Interesting comment. Bob further went onto say that even those who had black belts resorted to good old fashion dirty fighting when defending themselves on the tier or in the yard. Another interesting observation and comment. “Nothing fancy, just simply brutal is the name of the game inside the Pen.”

One last thing that Bob shared with me in this topic area was that multiple opponents (swarming) were not a real issue in the Canadian prison system. This is not to say that this does not happen, it does, but amongst the prison population this is seen to be a cowardly act. If you are going to go physical one should do so man to man. Many times, those that swarm, become free
targets for the rest of the population. Exception to this rule, riots where informers, rapists, and child molesters are targeted by groups

On Mindset For Survival:

Bob stated that if targeted for violence, you either become the “predator or the prey.” , You either “eat or be eaten”, You either “win or loose”, and at times you either “live or die”. Focused aggression, with the intent to live, and to cause as much damage as possible, as quickly as possible, utilizing the element of surprise is the key to survival. Threat of jail, more time, isolation, is impotent to those already doing time. Your goal is survival by any means necessary. There are no rules, and there is no honor amongst thieves as Bob so eloquently stated. You do what you have to do to live and survive. If you get in a beef that goes physical, put them down fast, and put them down hard, so that they don’t get back up right away.

MINDSET, is where Bob placed the heaviest emphasis on physical survival. As Bob stated, “ the most feared and NEVER targeted are those that are seen to be the craziest and will do anything, and I mean anything, to survive”

Final Comments:

I couldn’t help but compare what I was hearing from Bob to the roman gladiators of the past; prisoners taught to fight out of the need for survival and in some cases entertainment. Thus the reason for the title of this posting, “Gladiator School”.

Never in a million years did I ever think that our interaction together would have lead to Bob sharing the above noted information. Two adversaries, with a common link, self-protection and survival. Curiosities lead to exploration, and exploration lead to knowledge. As I have always said, knowledge and the understanding and application of that knowledge is power.

When it comes to “Real World” violence, Bob has been there and done that. He shared with me a world that many cannot even begin to understand or comprehend, but yet it is an “in your face” reality that many self-defence/RBSD instructors do not want to comprehend or understand due to ignorance or willful blindness. Now the question is:

“IS YOUR TRAINING BEST PREPARING YOU TO FACE THIS MODERN GLADIATOR GIVEN THE ABOVE NOTED INFORMATION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#200255 - 12/31/05 11:40 PM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: McSensei]
whitedragon_48 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/04
Posts: 185
Loc: W. Phoenix, AZ US
Salutations!

I agree with "Bob" above, as that is the reality for the most part in a Penitentiary, I know, I work one. As for knife attacks, I've mentioned before that I've trained extensively in the subject. Reality training is the key. I see stabbings with enough frequence as to be able to duplicate in the dojo the circumstances of them in order to explore the possible defenses. Also, I've been stabbed twice and cut once while on the job, that gave me a bit of an better insight on the subject (and some really cool scars that make quite the conversation piece). Let me talk briefly of these. As said before, you will rarely see the knife of a person bent on attacking you. You only see it if it is used for intimidation. My 1st stab I did not see or felt at all, I was breaking up a fight and I got stabbed about 9" from my groin (ouch). The second time an inmate came at me and pulled something from his clothes and swung at me cutting me slightly on the chest. I barely had time to back away from the attack. The 3rd (and hopefully, last) I saw him with the knife just as he was comming from overhead to stab me. I did an upper-block to his arm and caught the shank right in my forearm. It got stuck in the radius (spelling?) bone. But at least it wasn't my neck. I will not discuss how I ended those 3 incidents.

The moral of the story is awareness and reality based training which is hard to find.
_________________________
Yours in the Spirit of the Warrior-Scholar, Carlos M. Roman, Senior Instructor American Kenpo

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#200256 - 01/01/06 01:06 AM Re: Knife Disarm...overhead [Re: ArcaneOne]
SKYLER Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 15
Loc: USA OHIO
I like puppies,thankyou.


Edited by BrianS (01/01/06 10:28 PM)

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