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#198684 - 10/29/05 12:10 AM Non-Ueshiba Aikido?
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Just doing a search for MA schools in certain places I found this school:
http://www.aikidoschool.com/history.htm

Nihon Goshin Aikido, lists the influences of the founder as Daito-Ryu Aikijitsu, Judo, Kobudo, Karate, and Jujitsu.

Now I'm not saying it's not possible, but I've never heard of an aikido style not linked to Morihei Ueshiba. Are there other aikido styles that do not link to him? Does anyone have experience with this school/style?

ps-I like the way they did their video page, that's cool!
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#198685 - 10/29/05 01:04 AM Re: Non-Ueshiba Aikido? [Re: JoelM]
Joe Jutsu Offline
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Registered: 04/09/03
Posts: 575
My college club owns a video by MacEwen sensei called "Dynamic Aikido Combat," or something along those lines. It definitely looked effective, though definitely jutsu based in my opinion. Very demanding ukemi. Alot of the "throws" really looked like breaks to me. Cool and all, especially if you're insured. MacEwen sensei also goes into some elbow breaks. It is interesting stuff, and very different from what I do. But as for their lineage, I had no idea until now that they don't trace their roots to O Sensei. It's curious that they would choose to call their art aikido in the first place, especially if that moniker was already taken.

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#198686 - 10/29/05 11:13 AM Re: Non-Ueshiba Aikido? [Re: JoelM]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Hi Joel, there is an aikido school of self defense near me:

http://www.delmaraikido.cmasdirect.com/s...AEE5D0338967702

I actually spoke with the owner, Rick Wolslayer, some time ago and was impressed. As far as I can tell he has a good reputation in the area. I can't say anymore than that since I haven't visited the dojo or watched any calses. From what I gather though it is a bit different than aikikai in terms of it's training methods. When I spoke with him I had the clear impression that the style seems to emphasize it's effectiveness in self defense situations. This does not mean that it down plays the spiritual aspects of the art though. (I'm not sure that comes across the way I intended it to.)


Edited by KiDoHae (10/29/05 05:12 PM)

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#198687 - 11/12/05 12:17 PM Re: Non-Ueshiba Aikido? [Re: JoelM]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
No. Saying you're a Non Ueshiba Aikido is like saying you're a non Gichin Funikoshi(sp?) Shotokan. These people created the philosophy and backing of the art. If you simply take the name and use a completely different art... It makes no sense.


They seem more like an Aikijutsu type. Less an Aikido. Any true aikido dojo emphasises Morihei as "O'Sensei" because he brought spirituality into his (He created Aikido, it did not exist before him. It was Aikijutsu, Jujutsu, Judo, and other ryu's of Karate)

I wouldn't trust anyone who says they are Aikido and don't trace back to Ueshiba... It just seems like they'd be using a well known name just to get "associated with it" kind of like the people who don't actually practice Karate, but name their school something like "All American Karate"


And while Aikido is an effective art... If you do not take into account the spiritual/Ki aspects, your practice will suffer. At its highest level, Aikido is a practice of Ki motion... Its not just about physically redirecting your opponents kinetic energy, but is Ki energy in his intent to do harm to you.


Edited by phoenixsflame (11/12/05 12:21 PM)
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#198688 - 11/12/05 07:15 PM Re: Non-Ueshiba Aikido? [Re: phoenixsflame]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
In hind sight, since I didn't think of it when first reading the thread - I don't beleive that "non-Ueshiba" aikido was the right way to characterize it. I think it is quite safe to say that all aikido derives from O'Sensei. As has happened with so many other arts one of his students (or one of the students of his students) developed Nihon Goshen Aikido. This is not all that hard to understand since the nature of O'Sensei's aikido practice changed, as he did, during the course of his life. Any one of his esteemed students who trained with him at different periods may have seen aikido differently and preferred one flavor over another.

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#198689 - 11/12/05 08:09 PM Re: Non-Ueshiba Aikido? [Re: KiDoHae]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
http://www.aikidoinc.com/history.asp?sid=ZaJTJtvRlZDUVktSFh1W1VubNnXP2VS3CssBd4Am77NKGrMN1N -
Quote:

Master Shodo Morita founded the art of Nihon Goshin Aikido. He was trained by Yoshiro Kitaro, an instructor of Daito ryu Aikijitsu. Master Kitaro also trained in his family's system of self-defense. In addition to training in Daito ryu, Master Morita trained in Judo, Kobudo (weapons), Karate, and the esoteric arts. After mastering these arts, Master Morita realized that although they were highly effective, no single style was complete. Each art focused on a separate element of self-defense: The karate arts focused on striking. The judo arts focused on throwing. The jujitsu arts focused on joint locks.

Master Morita incorporated principles and techniques of each system into a new system called Nihon Goshin Aikido. It is significant to note that he did not merely choose the best techniques from each system, but a variety of techniques, recognizing that what works well for one person may not be effective for a second person due to height differences. Nihon Goshin Aikido is a highly effective form of martial arts due to its variety of principles.




There is absolutely no mention of Ueshiba. No student of his, no student of a student of his. Only Morita and Kitaro.

Does that change anything, KiDo, or am I misunderstanding you?
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#198690 - 11/12/05 10:51 PM Re: Non-Ueshiba Aikido? [Re: JoelM]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
To my knowlesge, neither of those two studied for extended periods of time with Ueshiba and in fact if dates are right in my head, Kitaro wasn't around during Ueshiba's time... ::shrugs::

How can you mention the masters and teachers of the art without O'Sensei? Its like making mention of the ingredients in Miso Soup without mentioning Tofu.
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#198691 - 11/12/05 11:53 PM Re: Non-Ueshiba Aikido? [Re: JoelM]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Hmmmmm.... It appears that you are correct Joel. I had not looked at the website and was going by memory. Which clearly is faulty. My mind "filled in the gaps" as I thought that he was a student of Ueshiba at some point.

Now I am as perplexed as you two!

My appologies to both you and Phoenix.

**KiDoHae goes to bed, after a long day**

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#198692 - 11/13/05 12:23 AM Re: Non-Ueshiba Aikido? [Re: KiDoHae]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
No apologies needed, KiDo.

Ok, so now that we've pretty much concluded that there is no Ueshiba influence in this style of Aikido, what do you all think of the fact that the founder called it Nihon Goshin Aikido?

We can only surmise on the reasons why. My guesses would be
  1. He wanted to capitalize on the success of Ueshiba's Aikido. Although maybe not. Morita founded his style in 1946 and Ueshiba started using the name "Aikido" in 1942. Is that long enough for the art to gain popularity and facilitate facsimiles? Although it seems Ueshiba was fairly well-known before then. Am I correct there?
  2. Certainly Morita knew of Ueshiba, he founded his art in Hokkaido, where Ueshiba studied Daito-ryu Aiki Jutsu. We could also surmise that knowing of Ueshiba and his style of Aikido that Morita saw similarities to the art he had developed and wanted to use the same name.
  3. Other.
  4. Mixture of all of the above.


What do you think?
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#198693 - 11/13/05 12:41 PM Re: Non-Ueshiba Aikido? [Re: JoelM]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
This is for discussion Discussion is good, it is the heart of all knowledge, don't apologize for bringing up the discussion.


Quote:


Ok, so now that we've pretty much concluded that there is no Ueshiba influence in this style of Aikido, what do you all think of the fact that the founder called it Nihon Goshin Aikido?

We can only surmise on the reasons why. My guesses would be
  1. He wanted to capitalize on the success of Ueshiba's Aikido. Although maybe not. Morita founded his style in 1946 and Ueshiba started using the name "Aikido" in 1942. Is that long enough for the art to gain popularity and facilitate facsimiles? Although it seems Ueshiba was fairly well-known before then. Am I correct there?
  2. Certainly Morita knew of Ueshiba, he founded his art in Hokkaido, where Ueshiba studied Daito-ryu Aiki Jutsu. We could also surmise that knowing of Ueshiba and his style of Aikido that Morita saw similarities to the art he had developed and wanted to use the same name.
  3. Other.
  4. Mixture of all of the above.


What do you think?






Well, Aikido had been in practice for a few years before being dubbed. Morihei Ueshiba had produced some amazing students in his early years of teaching and he commonly (from what I've read) did demonstrations of his art.

I think it would make sense that he would imitate the name.. Many people did the same with Karate.. They took their knowledge of Shira-te and Naha-te and created something independent of The traditional masters (Miagi, Funakoshi, Itosu and Higashiona to name some of them. ) Because they saw the "te's" being replaced by one Karate. Maybe without realizing that Aikido was something far different then Aikijutsu, he gave it the name because he thought it was the evolution of Aikijutsu just as the Te's evolved into Karate?


Thats the only "Innocent" way I could see it arising, partially out of ignorance of Ueshiba's art. Otherwise it looks like a plain and simple jumping on the band wagon mentality.


Editing Note :

The name of the art can show a lot. Direct translation makes it seem like he created an art called "Japanese Self-Defense Aikido"
Maybe he saw the spirituality in Aikido as frivilous and made an "Aikido" based solely off of Aikijutsu? Basically meaning it is an Aikijutsu NOT an Aikido. Or there are other ways it can be translated -- see below
(The two long path's of self defense?)
Nihon = Japan, or
Ni = Two, at, by, for, from, in, on, to
Hon = Book, (or a suffix for longer things, bottles, fingers, flowers, etc)
Goshin = Self Defense, or Misdiagnosis
Go = Five
Shin = Core, heart, center
Shi = Four, death, poem, teacher;master, city


Edited by phoenixsflame (11/13/05 12:53 PM)
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