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#198003 - 10/27/05 10:40 AM perception is reality?
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
We have a tendency to trust our senses and emotions to define reality.
http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/mot_adapt/index.html

The northern lights create a unique set of optical curiousities which we now understand why and how, but thousands of years ago humans may have looked at that same phenomenon and formed a different reality.

so now we have a set of realities that are a function of perception AND time.

why are some ancient realities no longer worth believing? look out to the sea - the horizon looks pretty flat to me...why wouldn't we still believe the earth is flat? it's still our perception that it is flat, so why isn't that our reality? Sailors never dared to sail into the altantic, since they were told they'd either fall off the edge or monsters would eat them or whatever the scarry story was at the time.

my question:
In Zen philosophy, does perception define reality?

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#198004 - 10/27/05 01:33 PM Re: perception is reality? [Re: Kintama]
rideonlythelabel Offline
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Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1242
Loc: st-hubert quebec canada
Quote:

We have a tendency to trust our senses and emotions to define reality.
http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/mot_adapt/index.html

The northern lights create a unique set of optical curiousities which we now understand why and how, but thousands of years ago humans may have looked at that same phenomenon and formed a different reality.

so now we have a set of realities that are a function of perception AND time.

why are some ancient realities no longer worth believing? look out to the sea - the horizon looks pretty flat to me...why wouldn't we still believe the earth is flat? it's still our perception that it is flat, so why isn't that our reality? Sailors never dared to sail into the altantic, since they were told they'd either fall off the edge or monsters would eat them or whatever the scarry story was at the time.

my question:
In Zen philosophy, does perception define reality?





Very interesting question.

Can't say much about Zen philosophy's take on that, but here's mine.

I'd say maybe perception defines reality to a certain extent. Perception does not define reality. There is reality, and our perception of reality, which are two somewhat different things. But is our perception of reality a reality in itself? Follow me on this.

Say you were to jump off a cliff believing 100% that you would fly. Would you fly? No, you'd fall down and die. Perception did not define reality and you're dead.

But, it goes farther than that.

Our perception of reality is deeply biased, not only as individuals and products of our environment, but simply as human beings. Take for an example color. What is a color? Our body's way of interpreting a ray of light spanning over certains wavelengths. But, in the absolute sense, does color exist? Or is it simply an electromagnetic wave of a certain frequency? Does God (assuming he exists) see color as we do (assuming He has a sense of vision)? Same thing for smells. That particular smell is only your brain's way of interpreting a particular mix of chemicals. Does smell exists in the absolute sense? Who knows? It exists for me, in my perception of reality, but maybe it only exists there?

Basically this is a spin of the good old if a tree falls and no one is there to hear it fall, does it still make a sound? Well it certainly still create an electromagnetic wave, but if no one hears that EM wave, is it still a sound? Or simply an EM wave?


Moving right along;

My perspective of reality is something intangible and ephemeral, but it exists for me, so does that mean it’s real?

If something only exists in my perspective of reality (smells, colors etc), does it become reality? If it does, that would mean that there are literally billions of different realities. Isn’t reality the only truth by definition? Is it possible to have billions of different truths, and all of them be true, real, and correct at the same time?

On the other hand, is it possible that those things that I feel are not real? I feel them, how could they not be real? The simple fact that I feel makes those feelings real doesn’t it? (read Descartes’ Discours de la Methode if you disagree)

Another possibility is that my perspective of reality is real, but not reality in itself. But then this begs the question; if it’s real but not reality, then what’s reality?

What’s reality, exactly?

*scratches head*

Maybe my little human mind is not big enough to embrace such concepts.

*bangs head on the keyboard*

I’m confused. I give up. I don't have an answer. I'll ask God if I ever meet him, because I think I'm too hopelessly human to answer myself.


Thank you Kin, great thread, made me think a lot.
_________________________
patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.

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#198005 - 10/27/05 01:40 PM Re: perception is reality? [Re: Kintama]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
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Perception is also a function of information. My parents used to tell me that that thunder was "angels bowling".

So just last week, I found out it's actually caused by lightning heating the air very rapidly.

My perception of thunder has changed because I have found more accurate information about it's true nature. Perception defines reality until information proves otherwise.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#198006 - 10/27/05 01:54 PM Re: perception is reality? [Re: MattJ]
UofM Shorin Ryu Offline
Resident Forum Breakdancer

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 981
Look at optical illusions.

http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/

What you perceive to be true is actually not.
My favorites are the Ames room, Muller-Lyer effect, and impossible figures.

Muller-Lyer:
http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/sze_muelue/index.html
Ames room:
http://psylux.psych.tu-dresden.de/i1/kaw.../ames_room.html
Impossible figures:
http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/cog_imposs1/index.html

Good fun!

Perception is a function of info, but even with info, I still get fooled by optical illusions, especially the Muller-Lyer applications.
_________________________
Alea iacta est ~ Gauis Julius Caesar Ne quis nimis ~ Solon Nuts to cancer ~ Sanchin31

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#198007 - 10/27/05 02:20 PM Re: perception is reality? [Re: Kintama]
Foolsgold Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 1635
Loc: South Lyon, MI, USA
Kintama-Actually, this is loosely intertwined with our conversation. (Speaking of which, I'm waiting on your reply. Don't leave a guy hangin'!)

The question that is brought up by this is, can reality exist outside of perception?


Edited by Foolsgold (10/27/05 02:22 PM)
_________________________
Soy stupido, pero soy guapo!

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#198008 - 10/27/05 04:55 PM Re: perception is reality? [Re: Foolsgold]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

The question that is brought up by this is, can reality exist outside of perception?



I think it most certainly does. how did people's perception of the moon change over time Vs. the reality of the moon over that same period? The moon has been virtually constant and predictable - human perceptions would be so lucky.
just once example as to why perception can't always be relied upon... seems like the more open a person is to accepting possible flaws in perception, then they would have more chance of finding truth than a person just taking someone's word for it.

here's how I think of it:
Critical thought reveils the reality to our perceptions.
Perceptions make us Human.

maybe Science is the pursuit of reality and Religion is the pursuit of Humans?

which would put Zen philosophy where? somewhere in the middle?

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#198009 - 10/27/05 05:02 PM Re: perception is reality? [Re: Kintama]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Can't help it...stuck in duality. I operate with the understanding that there is an 'internal reality', fabricated via processing, and an external reality where objects tossed out of tall buildings DO fall. And the two are seperate. To me, Zen philosophy is about a practice where one becomes familiar with the internal reality that is completely malleable.

It is a practice that 'wipes the internal mirror' so that one sees clearly the external reality.

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#198010 - 10/27/05 05:35 PM Re: perception is reality? [Re: harlan]
Foolsgold Offline
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Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 1635
Loc: South Lyon, MI, USA
harlan- Ooh, nice point.
_________________________
Soy stupido, pero soy guapo!

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#198011 - 10/27/05 10:39 PM Re: perception is reality? [Re: Kintama]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia


All I am prepared to say at this moment is I really don't know.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#198012 - 10/28/05 04:21 AM Re: perception is reality? [Re: Kintama]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
AH...the old philosophy question....if a tree fell over in a wood and there was no one there to hear it, would it make a sound?

In the end, it matter's little I think. Perception is a tool to guage reality. Whether our perception matches up exactly is what we all have been trying to do by letting scientists examine the natural world and letting the philosophers and religious among us, describe the reality underneath the perception.

Hey, if I see a green color, can I even be sure that this is the same green that others see? Perception. What if your color blind?

Ultimate truth is that dichotomy...the real that we experience and the real that we understand to be the cause of that experience, and ourselves in the middle...part of that experience trying to balance the issue.

If you believe something, you internalize that reality and perceive its worldly expression, inward, toward you. One may even rationalize outcomes of real world events to mesh with one's perceptions.

If not, then what happens in your perception of reality if it has no metaphysical cause that you can reason away? But the reality doesn't change...however, how we view the event may.

Whatever the case, you color the world even by your consideration of it, but when you are gone, the world won't care how you see it.

-B

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#198013 - 10/28/05 09:57 AM Re: perception is reality? [Re: Kintama]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
I do not remember the author But here is one related quote.

"Hot or cold, it is you that feels it".

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#198014 - 10/28/05 10:09 AM Re: perception is reality? [Re: Kintama]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Whose version of reality?

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#198015 - 10/28/05 11:42 AM Re: perception is reality? [Re: butterfly]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

Hey, if I see a green color, can I even be sure that this is the same green that others see? Perception. What if your color blind?





I am red-green colorblind. My reality is differnt from others, but is my reality is not the "true" reality?

I am only partially colorblind, but ingeneral, this is how I see.

http://www.vischeck.com/examples/
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#198016 - 10/28/05 12:06 PM Re: perception is reality? [Re: JoelM]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

"Hot or cold, it is you that feels it".



would the reality of it being 'hot' or 'cold' change if the sense of feeling was lost?

reguardless of how (don't want to get into that debate), all of our senses are there...I think we can all agree that they are there to serve a function - survival. there is the bias in the senses. our eyes reflect light into our brain a particular way, our brain proceses the images in another way. why is seeing color important to survival? lets just say, I wouldn't eat a pie where the berries were hand-picked by Joel.

does 'enlightenment' remove the filters and let us see reality for what it is...ala the Matrix?

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#198017 - 10/28/05 03:06 PM Dogen on perception [Re: Kintama]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
"Usually, the traditional 8th century Zen statement "The pictured cakes do not satisfy hunger" signifies something fantasized and unreal that cannot fill the stomach. But Dogen sees it differently, in a way that touches on the work of a computer. A process similar to what Dogen called ‘Dream-making within dreams' (musa-muchu).

Dogen: "The people think that such a view [‘The pictured cakes do not satisfy hunger’] tries to say that an unreal thing is really useless, but this is a grave mistake… What we now understand as the pictured cakes are all the paste cakes, vegetable cakes, cheese cakes, toasted cakes, nutritious cakes, and so on – and all are realized out of the pictured cakes. You should note that picture is nondual, cake is nondual, Dharma is nondual. For this reason, all the cakes that are now realized are the pictured cakes as a whole…

As you try to paint a landscape, you use paints, strange cliffs and grotesque boulders, the seven rare gems, and the four treasures [a brush, ink, paper, and an ink-stone]. The manner employed to draw cakes is also like this… Examine carefully the pictured Buddha and the pictured cakes. You should understand thoroughly which is a guardian lion, which is an iron staff, which is form, which is mind. [All are nothing but pictures.] Thus viewed, birth-and-death and coming-and-going are pictures without exception. Supreme enlightenment is nothing but a picture. As a rule, the phenomenal world and the empty sky – there is nothing that is not a picture… If you say that a picture is not real, all things are not real. If all things are not real, Dharma is not real either. If Dharma is real, the pictured cakes should be real."

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#198018 - 10/28/05 03:52 PM Re: Dogen on perception [Re: harlan]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
hmmmm...I usually like Dogen - in this case it sounds like circular reasoning. The arraingement of paint in the shape of what we SEE as food, doesn't change the reality that we can't survive by eating canvas.

We have to draw the line somewhere...I draw the line with life/death realities. If our current perceptions function as tools for survival....then over time, as human's lives become 'safer' (we don't have to worry daily about being eaten by animals anymore do we) ...our perception over generations and eons will be affected by more abstract and expanded thinking.
If we think of it in Universal terms, an alien race with double the amount of senses will have a much better grasp on 'reality' ...wouldn't they? The one with the right/best senses for survival wins?

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#198019 - 10/31/05 12:24 PM Re: Dogen on perception [Re: Kintama]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Just more questions: what is to be 'won' through 'grasping'? What is the nature of thought? And how does the attachment to intellect in any way preclude the inevitable?

"Good and bad, happy and sad,
all thoughts vanish into emptiness
like the imprint of a bird in the sky "

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche,
The Sadhana of Mahamudra


Quote:

If we think of it in Universal terms, an alien race with double the amount of senses will have a much better grasp on 'reality' ...wouldn't they? The one with the right/best senses for survival wins?



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#198020 - 10/31/05 01:42 PM Re: Dogen on perception [Re: harlan]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
an Asteroid tumbling towards Earth cannot be seen with the naked eye until it is too late. by extending our perception (telescope & radio) and grasping it's importance to do so, the thing to be gained is survival. It seems worth it to try and change the seemingly inevitable.

It's also inevitable that as we eventually deplete the planet of resources while continuing exponential population growth, tensions between people will grow accordingly. Along this course, wars are inevitable.
If our collective perception is allowed to honestly look at Human history and it's self-destructive nature when put under pressure, we'd start putting more money into terra-forming Mars to a habitable planet. Right now, all of the Mars projects world-wide total research investment each year is less than what oil company profits are each quarter.

Some things seem inevitable now, only because we haven't allowed ourselves to perceive them otherwise.
Just a thought.

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#198021 - 10/31/05 01:54 PM Re: Dogen on perception [Re: Kintama]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
So, if human nature is inherently self-destructive, how will an expanded perception of external reality 'fix' that? If we carry the seeds of our own destruction...then terra-forming Mars will result in the continuation of the species...as well as reinforcing the same negative behaviour.

"Fixing mars' for human habitation is about as useful as 'fixing dogs' that aren't broke.


Edited by harlan (10/31/05 01:56 PM)

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#198022 - 10/31/05 02:12 PM Re: Dogen on perception [Re: harlan]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
So....let everybody die off here and survival of the fittest?

'Fixing' animals has proven to be beneficial from a psychological(as it would be best for human companionship) and medical perspective.

Arguing semantics...they're not 'fixed' because they're broken, it's just a choice of words.

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#198023 - 10/31/05 02:15 PM Re: Dogen on perception [Re: Kintama]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

If we think of it in Universal terms, an alien race with double the amount of senses will have a much better grasp on 'reality' ...wouldn't they? The one with the right/best senses for survival wins?




Just a thought on 'alien' senses...sharks, stingrays, and other fish use electromagnetic sensors to find prey. Dolphins, bats, and some fish use 'sonar' to navigate and find prey as well.

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#198024 - 10/31/05 02:17 PM Re: Dogen on perception [Re: JoelM]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
And still...complete as they are, being the best fish, stingrays, dolphins, etc....they are caught in nets beyond their understanding. They would have to be other than they are...evolved...to 'see' the nets.


Edited by harlan (10/31/05 02:17 PM)

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#198025 - 10/31/05 02:26 PM Re: Dogen on perception [Re: Kintama]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Kintama -

Quote:

Right now, all of the Mars projects world-wide total research investment each year is less than what oil company profits are each quarter




Exxon profits this quarter - US$9,000,0000,000

Although terra-forming Mars is a questionable idea for now, as there is no tectonic activity there. Some scientists think that many chemical activities (gas/mineral exchanges, etc) related to tectonic activity are essential to life as we know it.

Although I agree that research is absolutely needed in this area. I perceive that need being very great!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#198026 - 10/31/05 02:29 PM Re: Dogen on perception [Re: harlan]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

They would have to be other than they are...evolved...to 'see' the nets.




What do you mean by 'see' ?

Do you mean they would have to evolve more?

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#198027 - 10/31/05 02:36 PM Re: Dogen on perception [Re: JoelM]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
One can 'see' a net, or 'reality' with eyes...but 'seeing' involves conceptual 'understanding'. Even knowing 'what' a net is, the purpose, all the details...would not lift a dolphin out of the water. The brain could evolve, and it would be perhaps a smarter dolphin, but to escape the net...it would be forever swimming. And still, even though it now knows about the net...nothing has changed.


Edited by harlan (10/31/05 02:39 PM)

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#198028 - 10/31/05 02:53 PM Cherry blossoms on Mars. [Re: harlan]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I invested in the future when I decided to father children.

Therein lies my hope for humanity. It's a long-shot but I'm hoping we eventually learn from our mistakes and evolve to something better than primates fighting over a banana.

To survive another day so we may fight each other tomorrow. It's a wonder we haven't wiped ourselves out already.

You have to remember that your inner growth is only possible if you have enough food to eat. Survival always comes first. Colonization and migration is not a new concept, humans have been doing it for literally eons...but we are fresh out of 'undiscovered' land. our external growth is necessary before our inner growth can be explored. How much are we growing while we are dead? ...I don't know, does anyone? I mean other than what growth springs up from the compost we provide.

If you are saying you wouldn't alter another planet because it was meant to be uninhabitable, then I have a question: What are cherry blossoms doing in Washington DC? they aren't indigenous, they were transplanted from half way around the world. Ironicly, United States probably has more Cherry blossoms than Japan now. eventually, maybe people from Japan will visit the US to see what real Sakura Bana look like. In a direct way, the transplanting has increased it's chance of survival.

Are having cherry blossoms growing on Mars any different?

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#198029 - 10/31/05 03:20 PM Re: Cherry blossoms on Mars. [Re: Kintama]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
So, if continued expansion and migration keeps bringing the species to a another point of self-destruction (yeast in a bottle)...won't planting Cherry trees on Mars eventually result in the contamination of the planet? The lovely trees of D.C....and the ghettos and privation just beyond.

A fundamental change in the species needs to occur...or no matter where we go we will eventually end up in the same place. And since I can't seem to fix the entire species, I will elect to work on myself. That is, until the food runs out.


Edited by harlan (10/31/05 03:22 PM)

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#198030 - 10/31/05 03:24 PM Re: Cherry blossoms on Mars. [Re: Kintama]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
another thought about how external perception translates into survival.
Imagine two ways to perceive a threat to your existence:
1. Keep perceptions away from the possible threat and pray nothing bad happens. If something bad does happen, it was 'inevitable'.
or
2. Use all of your perception, including technology, and struggle to avoid the worst case. If something bad happens, learn from it and try something else.

If anyone here says door #1, then I'd wonder why they were even interested in Martial Arts.

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#198031 - 10/31/05 03:51 PM Re: Cherry blossoms on Mars. [Re: harlan]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

A fundamental change in the species needs to occur...or no matter where we go we will eventually end up in the same place. And since I can't seem to fix the entire species, I will elect to work on myself. That is, until the food runs out.



I agree, except my hope is that the fundamental change (deep inner reflection) you are talking about will come with the realization of what we have done to the world we leave behind. We learn lessons the hard way - only after abondoning ship do the 16th century sailors realize the dangers of smoking in bed.

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