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#197077 - 10/24/05 10:46 PM Tenth Level Black Belt
elmcityslim Offline
Member

Registered: 05/12/05
Posts: 31
Loc: new haven, CT, USA
Didnt the last remaining holder of the rank "Tenth Don" die recently? If so, what does this mean for TKD?

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#197078 - 10/24/05 11:14 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: elmcityslim]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
There are a few left in my town. There are also 14 or 15 world champions.

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#197079 - 10/25/05 12:55 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: elmcityslim]
Mandolynn Offline
Member

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 195
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
My grandmaster was recently awarded his 10th dan. On September 10th, I believe.
_________________________
My bladed nunchucks are super sweet.

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#197080 - 10/25/05 07:31 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: elmcityslim]
Welsh Dragon Offline
Member

Registered: 01/20/05
Posts: 38
Loc: United kingdom
Hi Guy's
I dont know where a tenth degree rank came from. Traditional Taekwondo has only 9 degree's of black belt this applies for both of the main systems (ITF/WTF). Indeed General Choi who created modern (ITF) Taekwondo died a a 9th degree grandmaster. 10th dan just dont sound right.

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#197081 - 10/25/05 08:38 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Welsh Dragon]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
WTF does have a 10th Dan.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#197082 - 10/25/05 08:41 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Welsh Dragon]
tkdkid5282 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/26/05
Posts: 167
Loc: Georgia
there is such thing but it is extremely rare. most people die before they reach such a rank
_________________________
There is enough for everyones need, but not enough for everyones greed. -Ghandi

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#197083 - 10/25/05 09:18 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: tkdkid5282]
TKDBlackBelt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/05
Posts: 47
Loc: USA
In my organization there are 9 degrees of black. The 10th dan is the headmaster, there can only be one 10th dan at a time in my organization.
TKDBlackBelt
"Ability may get you to the top, but it takes character to keep you there."
-John Wooden

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#197084 - 10/26/05 12:12 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Welsh Dragon]
spectrum Offline
Member

Registered: 05/05/05
Posts: 134
Loc: montana
The ITF has 9th degree as GM

Our very own TKD tenth degree BB came to visit recently for a belt test for my instructors. When asked, the wise old man said "shucks I got 10 strips same as GM Rhee and I an't a GM". The high DAN board voted so be it.

Leo,
You might enjoy knowing that he is also a proud white belt in JJ. Good company!

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#197085 - 10/26/05 05:02 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: spectrum]
TKDGuy Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 42
Loc: Baltimore, Maryland, USA
From what I understand Jhoon Rhee is a 10th Dan, however on the Kukkiwon website there are listings from 2002 of all the WTF black belts ranging from 1st-10th Dan with there being only 5 10th Dans. Out of curiosity does Jhoon Rhee associate himself with WTF because I'm kind of confused wiht what type of TKD I do..for instance we do WTF forms (we associate with WTF) but we dont spar like them. Any difference?
_________________________
1st Degree Black Belt in Taekwondo

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#197086 - 10/26/05 05:13 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: TKDGuy]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I wonder how accurate this is? ( http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/yudanja.asp?div=5 )

I personally know of one 7th, one 6, some 5's and so on. Drastical drop from 5th to 6th. But I also understand that (1) the higher you go they are awarded for service, (2) how many degrees you are doesn't make you a better martial artist and (3) that many reach level and stay at that level as they are more interested in training, teaching, etc. Another notch on their belt doesn't make them any better.

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#197087 - 10/26/05 05:55 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: spectrum]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

You might enjoy knowing that he is also a proud white belt in JJ. Good company!




That's nice to know
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#197088 - 08/11/06 11:57 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Leo_E_49]
mcmillintkd Offline
Member

Registered: 06/21/06
Posts: 88
I always understood that 10th dan were given after the fact. One had to die and then their organization gave them a 10th dan providing that they were already 9th. I don't think Jhoon Rhee is associated with either the wtf or itf though his books on the Chang Hon patterns are good.

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#197089 - 08/11/06 01:45 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: mcmillintkd]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
he's not
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

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#197090 - 08/11/06 10:30 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: mcmillintkd]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>I don't think Jhoon Rhee is associated with either the wtf or itf though his books on the Chang Hon patterns are good. <<

No, they are not.

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#197091 - 08/12/06 01:22 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: elmcityslim]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
10th dans in Tae Kwon Do

PROFESSOR EUGENE A. HUMESKY
http://www.utbtaekwondo.us/grandmaster_eugene_a_humesky_credentials.html

Suh Chong Kang
http://www.tkangtkd.com/grandmaster.htm

Hae Man Park
http://hometown.aol.co.uk/tkdbiddleco/myhomepage/family.html

Uhm Woon Kyu
http://www.chungdo.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=3

and so on...

"WTF President Choue granted an honorary 10th Dan certificate to Dr. Rogge, along with a black belt and Dobok. Dr. Rogge was the second to be honored with the WTF's honorary 10th Dan, after Juan Antonio Samaranch, the honorary president of the IOC."
source: http://www.wtf.org/site/news/wtf.htm?realnum=92&page=&keyword=&part=&mode=view

also...

"Some of the many private Taekwondo organizations are: ITF, WTU, ITU, ITTF, WTTF, KTF, KTTA, ATA, ATF, ATU, UTF, UTI, UTU, and so on. It is estimated that there are over 200 private Taekwondo organizations in the world."
source: http://www.answers.com/topic/taekwondo

and each one can have a 10th dan. Then of course the (estimated guess) hundreds others who have no affiliation at all, but use the rank 10th dan, title Grandmaster, and art name Tae Kwon Do...simply because they wish to.

so, since there is no legal regulation against this practice, the answer to the threads question is that there are hundreds of 10th dans in 'Tae Kwon Do'.

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#197092 - 08/13/06 11:41 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I find it ironic that Suh Kang, a former Vice President of the ITF authored an article back in the 1970s (or maybe early 80s) Calling for Integrity in the Black Belt Ranks. He made it clear then that IX Dan was the highest. Isn't it funny that he is a 10th degree?

I used to argue all the time about who is right & wrong with respect to all aspects of TKD. I no longer do that, as to each their own.

I do ask those that think 10th Dan is the highest level to explain why? I would love to learn the theory or reasoning behind it.

In the ITF, we believe that IX Dan is the highest. There is reasons given. It stems from the number 3, which in Chinese is written with 3 horizontal parrell lines. The top line represents heaven, the middle mortals & the bottom earth. It is a special number in the Orient & when mutiplied by itself, you get 9. The highest of the single digit numbers. It also is the only single digit number with the special property that when you mutiply 9 by any other single digit number the resulting number when added together equals 9. For example 3 x 9 = 27, 2 + 7 = 9, 9 x 9 = 81, 8 + 1 = 9 etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

When asked about 10th degree etc. Gen Choi would often answer why stop at 10, why not 19, or 99 or 100. In fact I have seen some advertise themselves as 13 degree. Again, to each there own!
But please give the reason behind why. If youdon't know, ask your instructor, if they do not know, do some research. The best question a Martial Artist can ask is WHY?

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#197093 - 08/14/06 01:59 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: EarlWeiss]
mcmillintkd Offline
Member

Registered: 06/21/06
Posts: 88
I was wondering why the negative comment to Jhoon Rhee's books and what you would offer as a subsitute?

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#197094 - 08/14/06 06:30 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: mcmillintkd]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Hi
Although I didn't say anything negative about GM Rhee's books, I would like to add this. I have several of them. When I bought them, they were a supplement to my Taekwon-Do training. They gave more pictures & details than GM Choi's books that were out at the time. In addition, I learned these forms, hyungs much the same way they were illustrated in GM Rhee's books. In other words Korean Karate style. Examples are the old style bending ready stance type "A" (Moa JunBi Sogi "A"), the old style chambers & KiHaps, that don't belong. The best one I think was his 1st, which had ChonJi in it. It was also in Spanish, which I think may have been a 1st.

For me, these books are very outdated, as are those by GM Hee Il Cho & Master Keith Yates. For some, they may still serve a purpose. I enjoyed their history sections as well.
I however would think that someone who wanted to learn the ChonJi Patterns, the Chang Hon or ITF Tuls, would buy the 15 volume Encylopedia of Taekwon-Do, authored by Choi, Hong Hi. Many consider him the founder of Taekwon-Do, or at least one of the principal developers, spreaders etc. He was the founder of the ITF, a former president of the KTA & the creator of these sets of patterns, the 1st Korean ones. I would think that if one was interested in learning these patterns, one would refer to his texts, especially a 15 volume set, that dedicates a tremendous amount of print space, diagrams & photos designed to help the student learn. These books also have CD Roms, videos & DVDs to supplement the printed matter, as well as many qualified International Instructors that are capable of teaching them the way the founder said they should be performed.

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#197095 - 08/14/06 07:18 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
mcmillintkd Offline
Member

Registered: 06/21/06
Posts: 88
The TKD encyclopedia is beyond my meager student funds but luckily there is a copy in my university library. I have found myself referring to it again and again. I am working my way through each of the volumes including the ones that I am not near to knowing the information because of rank. What other TKD books were you recommend?

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#197096 - 08/14/06 09:11 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I do ask those that think 10th Dan is the highest level to explain why?



the theory is quite simple really. The WTF was set up in direct opposition to the ITF, hence why they went one higher.

Stuart

Ps. This is not a WTF diss, just how it was
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#197097 - 08/14/06 11:48 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes, I realize that may be a reason, but I was hoping to have someone state the theory or philosophy behind why something was or is a certain way. I was always taught to ask the best question, WHY?
I think far too many people just do & do not ask why. As a result they tens to go through the motions & I don't think the martial arts are suppossed to be just going through the motions. If it was - join any aerobics club etc.
I still would like to know the stated or given reason why an organization would have 10th Dan as the highest?

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#197098 - 08/15/06 06:46 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
why have 10th as the highest in TKD? because other arts have 10th. at competitions, seminars and whatnot the 9th degree TKD guys want equal footing with the 10th dans of other systems.
I'm sure it's a matter of time before people start adopting the ninjitsu 15th degree system. then they'll think of something else.

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#197099 - 08/15/06 07:55 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Ed is probably right. The beginning martial artists would see the 9th dan and wonder "Why don't we have a 10th? Are we not as good?" Etc. That would probably filter right up through the ranks.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#197100 - 08/15/06 07:59 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: MattJ]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Ahh! remeber the days when 5th dans (in any art) were so thin on the ground they were almost mystical and godlike!




Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#197101 - 08/15/06 12:22 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: StuartA]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I am just recycling information, but my own Instructor said he was not going to even try going for his 5th Dan due to it is all political. In fact to achieve his 4th Dan he did not even have to have hours in Taekwondo to obtain it through the WTF, any hours in other martial arts could be used towards it. So if everything is political at the higher levels, and the higher levels do not make you a better martial artist ... then why try to achieve these? I think many do because they like ranks. Many may do it for business reasons. Many may do it as they want people to view them as something great. I would rather follow an Instructor that was a good teacher and knew what they were talking about then somebody that held a 9th or 10th degree belt. Makes you wonder how many asses they kissed to obtain these.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#197102 - 08/15/06 01:53 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Yes, I realize that may be a reason, but I was hoping to have someone state the theory or philosophy behind why something was or is a certain way. I was always taught to ask the best question, WHY?



That is the why, the real reason! Any reasoning would of been added after to try to support it!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#197103 - 08/15/06 01:56 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Dereck]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I am just recycling information, but my own Instructor said he was not going to even try going for his 5th Dan due to it is all political.




I understand exactly where he is coming from as I felt/feel the same.

I only took my 3rd degree once I ran a club as I knew studnets would eventually catch up with me, so i needed to progress. I didnt ask for my 4th degree, but spent a fair bit of time (24/7) with a high graded who promted me - see http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/REPORTS_4thdegree.html

Unfortunatly powermongering, politics, ego and advertising has taken the shine off any high dan grades that truely deserve them.

Me - I'll train and learn with anyone as its whats behind the belt that counts.

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (08/15/06 01:57 PM)
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#197104 - 08/15/06 03:11 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Can someone give me the reason WHY 15th degree is the highest in ninjitsu?

What is the reasoning behind it?

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#197105 - 08/15/06 03:14 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes, it is best to learn from someone who is a good teacher, with knowledge to share, rahter than some 1 with a particular rank.

I do agree that if you have or run a school, or teach, it helps to have rank, at least to advertise & be on somewhat equal footing as others.

However, no one has been able to offer an explanation as to why WTF, or other styles have 10 degree as the terminal rank. Can somneone please tell me?
I offered why ITF has IX Dan as the highest.

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#197106 - 08/15/06 03:46 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
could be a human tendancy to decimal/base10/metric systems? why 10 commandments? why Letterman Top Ten Lists?

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#197107 - 08/15/06 03:58 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Good questions and observation Ed. In our numerical system 10 is the first double digit number. When we rate women we rate them from 1 to 10 ( ) ... or rate anything for that matter. 10 seems to be a magic number or something.


EDIT: We have 10 fingers and 10 toes (not taking into account thumbs but they are fingers) Maybe the number 10 is just inbred into our society that it just seemed logical at that time?????


Edited by Dereck (08/15/06 04:01 PM)
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#197108 - 08/15/06 04:09 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Dereck]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
ah...forgot about that. 10 fingers + 10 toes = 10 kyu + 10 dan.

we can start a myth that in the old days, rank was judged by how many digits you had lopped off in battle.

(I'm frightened to think what the sacrifice would have been for 11th dan!)

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#197109 - 08/16/06 05:53 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Dereck]
Doc Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 10
Politics,power and money - the higher degrees are certainly not technically better than many of their lower black belt grades. Many higher grades have a closed mind set ' 24 years in the matrial arts ' usually means 1 year of learning repeated 24 times ! I plan to start my own martial art tomorrow and call myself 20th Dan - please email your CC details to join .....

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#197110 - 08/16/06 09:37 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Hey Ed,
I've got an idea... maybe we could have "toe dan" and "finger dan" grades... that would be limited to 10th (unless you get serious) and it would give everyone a whole new "revenue stream" (governmental tax description) of dojo income and "share-able" income streams for the associations.
Maybe we could get into "traditional toe dans" and "modern toe dans" as well...
God... there's just so much money floating around out there...



_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#197111 - 08/16/06 10:21 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I can see it now...

"hey, what rank are you buddy?"

{holding up one finger} "ik-you!"


and here's a ni-kyu:

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#197112 - 08/16/06 11:30 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina


I love it!!!

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#197113 - 08/16/06 05:09 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
Doc Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 10
Quote:

"WTF President Choue granted an honorary 10th Dan certificate to Dr. Rogge, along with a black belt and Dobok. Dr. Rogge was the second to be honored with the WTF's honorary 10th Dan, after Juan Antonio Samaranch, the honorary president of the IOC."




These honorary black belt grades - whether WTF or ITF - make a mockery of the 'blood,sweat and tears' that the average Joe undergoes in the dojang. Of all the systems the grades given out in BJJ seem the most appropriate - a black belt is the dream obtainable only by a select few after years of training.


Edited by Dereck (08/16/06 05:14 PM)

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#197114 - 08/16/06 08:48 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Doc]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Sorry to burst your bubble, but all rank is honorary. Whoever issues it is saying that you meet certain standards that they have set, and if they're different from somebody else's... tough noogies...

The IJF used to refuse to honor ranks issued by the US Judo Association, so the JA sued them. The finding of the court was that since all rank was honorary and its standards were not necessarily consistent, that ALL rank had to be honored in open competition. The next step was people getting rank that wasn't issued even to founders of the styles...

I still like YOT ranks rather than Dan ranks... If we got credit for every year of training, I'd be 44th Dan next month...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#197115 - 08/18/06 09:34 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: wristtwister]
Doc Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 10
Hey Pal - my bubble was burst a long time ago.
Who cares about inter or intra political agendas - life is too short and the pond I live in too big.
What I am saying is that some organisations seem to give their grades away easily and others make their students earn them.
p.s I have made a note on my calender re your celebrations next month

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#197116 - 09/03/06 07:59 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
ScottWilson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 10
My understanding of the "WTF" 10th Dan is this (my limited knowledge come in part from a direct conversation I had on this very subject with Kyo Yoon Lee, the founder of the Han Moo Kwan, and 1 of 5 recognized 10th Dans by the Kukkiwon):

The WTF is not the organization that awards/bestows dan or poom rankings- this is done through the Kukkiwon. When the kwan founders came together and formed what we call Taekwondo (including the WTF, KTA & Kukkiwon) they were all acknowledged as 10th Dan/Founders. Today only 5 of those 8 are living. In addition to these 8 the Kukkiwon has also bestowed 3 posthumous 10th Dans and 2 honorary 10th Dans.

In all reality 9th Dan is the highest Dan ranking in Kukkiwon/WTF Taekwondo, as it is with the ITF. There are promotion guidelines up through 10th Dan, but that rank will likely not be bestowed. If someone is a 10th Dan they must have a MINIMUM of 38 years in Taekwondo and be at least 60 years of age.

Kyo Yoon Lee says there are only 5 people alive with this rank and all are 1st generation Kwan founders (and obviously all are Korean). The 2nd Generation (or later) Kwan leaders are 9th Dan.

In short, the 10th Dan ranking was given to those Kwan headmasters who were the forefathers that formed "WTF" Taekwondo.

Master Scott Wilson
5th Dan

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#197117 - 09/03/06 08:03 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
ScottWilson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 10
p.s--- As far as non-Korean high ranking individuals in Kukkiwon/WTF Taekwondo:
Ed Sell from Florida is the 1st and only non-Korean 9th Dan that I am aware of. All others are non-affiliated with the Kukkiwon.

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#197118 - 09/03/06 08:21 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Master Scott Wilson, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of 9th and 10th dans that would disagree...I think the phenomenon of people justifying such high rank starts right around the time they start refering to themselves as 'Master'.

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#197119 - 09/03/06 09:47 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
we used to laugh that every 3rd dan in TKD left Korea as a 3rd dan and landed in America as a 6th, 7th, or 8th dan...
Back then, the internet and communications weren't as good as now, and nobody read Korean, so these guys could spout any story they wanted to and if they were "decent" at MA, they could get by with it...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#197120 - 09/03/06 10:39 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
ScottWilson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 10
Ed,

While many may choose to disagree, those are the facts- at least in regards to Kukkiwon graded individuals. The real issue (of "rank" and the use thereof) is what is legitimate and what is illegitimate. I would be more than happy to discuss this with any of these individuals. Keep in mind my writing said this is in regards to Kukkiwon rankings-- not "Bill's Backyard Martial Art Association".

There is a plethora of illegitimate individuals running around painting a sad picture of martial arts as a whole. That is why this topic in this forum began by the looks of it- many illinformed, or uniformed, martial artists looking for clarification.

Anyone, anywhere can call themselves whatever rank they choose-- go look at the WMAHOF and many other organizations and yes, some of these people start calling themselves Master and things go nuts-- more 10th Degrees than you can believe- amazing what someone that is not even 30 years old can accomplish!!!

This is one valid reason for associating with a dojang/dojo that is part of a legitimate association. Also, regardless of rank, seeing the knowledge and skill of the instructor, as well as how that instructor impats the information to his/her students, is vital.

I am certain that you, like I, have seen this misuse of the martial arts way too many times over the years and you have had all you can stand of it, however, if you are referring to my personal use of the title of Master for myself then please note that this title is bestowed, not self proclaimed-- When you have legitimate 9th and 10th Dan Grandmasters that call you Master then you have probably earned the right to use that title (and I hope that after 30+ years I have earned it). I also used it in my posting to add credence to the fact that there is some basis to what I am writing. When the worlds largest Taekwondo organization acknowledges you as a Master, and when they have written guidelines that are to be adhered to in regards to rank, one can assume they can use the rank without being labeled as a self proclaimist. Now, if you ever hear of me proclaiming something ludicrous, like having 8th, 9th or 10th Degrees in 8 different styles, being a Soke or a Phd/MA then please feel free to critique.

Sincerely,
Master Scott Wilson

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#197121 - 09/03/06 10:48 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
roostergunner Offline
Kentucky Fried Idiot

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 30
Loc: My own little world
Do not feel alone Scott,many on this site would tell you that you are not even qualified to judge whether or not a plate of noodles tastes good to you. This is the treatment that I have recieved.
_________________________
I am so dumb i stare at OJ cartons cuz they say 'Concentrate'.

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#197122 - 09/03/06 11:58 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: roostergunner]
EvilKi Offline
Member

Registered: 08/01/06
Posts: 47
Loc: Rolling around Colorado
rooster if you truely feel you have been mistreated fill out a comment card. In all seriousness why do you continue posting if you think we are a bunch of jerks. You would be amazed at how well most of these guys will treat you if you present intelligent theories to debate, however if you continue to tell people how bad this site treats you i hope you expect the same treatment. Again dont try and impress people with various fight records and experience because alot of the admins and moderators here have amazing experiences and are always happy to share them, however they dont ever flaunt them, they use them as a teaching tool, not trophy to impress people. No one is trying to treat you badly, please just present valid topics to discuss and leave the egos for middle school. Thank you and again welcome to FA.com

Tim
_________________________
Gentleness always overcomes strength. Kyuzo Mifune.

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#197123 - 09/04/06 12:47 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: roostergunner]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
it's not like that, rooster and Scott. ranks and titles don't translate between styles, and everyone does different arts here. plus even in similar arts, the ways of attaining rank are relative and arbitrary to that gym/org. for that reason, ranks and title do not automatically gain someone more or less respect....even, and especially in the in-person meetups, since all can learn from each other, everyone is a 10th dan as far as I'm concerned, no matter what color they choose to keep their gi together.

It may have started as a cultural differance between east and west ways of thinking, but the comment I made about the 'master' title refers to the notion of not referring to oneself by rank or title. there are some that consider it pretentious...and some which consider it outright rediculous.

Similar I suppose to someone who has a qualifying IQ score, calling themselves a genius. ever meet someone like that? "Hi, I'm a genius." - "great! nice meeting you genius...excuse me while socialize with the Earthlings."

let me ask you guys...if there were no rank or titles...would your accomplishments be any less? I don't understand why people need recognition in a personal Art.

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#197124 - 09/04/06 12:51 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Scott, a point to ad to Ed's is that people are respected on this forum by what they say and how they act, not by their ranking or titles. It does take time, you're not going to be a pillar of the community in a day, but continue participating and making quality contributions and you will be held in regard with the best of members here.

Welcome to the forum,
Joel

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#197125 - 09/04/06 01:27 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
ScottWilson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 10
Ed,
I agree with you.
Just do not assume instantly that someone is basing their entire comments on the color of their belt- look deeper into what what being said and why before passing judgement. As for accomplishements, they are what they are and they are indeed there regardless of rank-- I would suggest to people like yourself that have an automatic negativity to ranking to take up an art that uses no ranking, instead of promoting a style that utilizes rank. If you are indeed open to knowledge then learn before commenting.

I admit that I am no fan of pompous titles and ranks, however some of the systems/styles I practice and teach happens to be systems that show progression through rank. You do not have to be bragadocious about it, yet to run from it and act like the "lifelong white belt" may not be the best course either. My students hopefully feel that I impart good information, regardless of what is holding the dobak/gi together. --Maybe this is why they stick around-- At the same time I do honor the martial artist that has attained whatever ranking within whatever system, as long as that person has learned what it takes to be wearing what they are wearing. The same goes for non-ranking styles.

"Show me what you know and maybe I can learn something myself" is the definate philosophy I tend to try and follow. Many people do not need recognition and many run from it, however all to many actually desire it and try to put on a big show of not wanting it.

In today's business world many try to paint a picture by puffing themselves up, or in some cases by trying not to act puffed up while in actuality being what they accuse others of--

go back and read some comments that you yourself have made on different topics in this forum and hopefully you will see what I mean. It is easy to state humility, yet it is another to actually show it. When a new potential student walks into your class what type of humility do you display? How do you present yourself? What is around your waist (if anything)?

Just remember that the topic of discussion was brought up by someone wanting answers. The specific topic of 10th Dans in WTF Taekwondo was brought up and I had hoped to bring some clarity to it. My comments were in direct regards to WTF Taekwondo,not Goju Ryu or ITF TKD or Kali or anything else, and I believe that the comments were fair, unbiased and valid.

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#197126 - 09/04/06 01:38 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Welcome to the forum Scott. I will give you props for your posts seem well thought out and written. Over time as you contribute more others will get to know you better and that will be the best indication of who you are. I hope you stick around to get to know others on this TKD forum and the others offered by FA (Fighting Arts).
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#197127 - 09/04/06 01:44 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: JoelM]
ScottWilson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 10
Joel- Thanks for the welcome-

Again, you misunderstand my comments. I was simply stating facts about ranking in TKD to someone who had asked for answers.

So what, I have attained a rank in this style by putting enough time and effort and sweat and blood to make me feel like I have the right to comment without everyone assuming that because I put "Master" by my name that I am bragging-- It is my title- period. I did not go into my other ranks, titles, years of experience, awards, recognitions and so forth. I did not make some ludicrous comments or state ridiculous claims. I am sorry that my title hurts peoples feelings because of whatever silly reason they have, but is it really a big issue-- did you all totally bypass why the title was there to begin with? Hello?

My suggestion: Go back to my original comments- reread and we can start fresh.

So, I am new to this forum but it does not take long for even a new person to this forum to figure out who really is blowing smoke and who is not-- amazing that no one answered the questions that were asked that I tried to answer- instead everyone wants to pounce on someone because of their own feelings or insecurities-- I was not looking for anyones respect or admiration.

I do appreciate the welcome, however, henceforth I will likely sit back and read others comments and let them pontificate on their knowledge because it seems as though these folks feel they already have the knowledge of Solomon.

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#197128 - 09/04/06 01:46 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Dereck]
ScottWilson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 10
Thanks-- Sincerely.

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#197129 - 09/04/06 02:03 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Scott,
I was not commenting on your addition to the thread, I found your post on 10th Dans to be very informative.
My comment was directed towards your comment of:
Quote:

I also used it in my posting to add credence to the fact that there is some basis to what I am writing.




What I meant was that calling yourself "Master" in a internet forum does little-to-no good. You yourself point out that there are many so-called "masters" and 9th and 10th dans that have not earned what they claim.

So what's the difference if they come in here calling themselves Master and you do?
The answer is...nothing.

The difference comes when the person in question makes intelligent and informative posts on a consistant basis. Then, and only then, will that person's posts be regarded as truth, factual, and of import. And by the time one reaches that point (some quicker than others) it does not matter your rank, title, or belt size/shape/color.

The fact is, Scott, that I will read more of your posts due to the nature of the content of your first post, not because you are a "master" or other.

I hope I have made a bit of sense here.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#197130 - 09/04/06 02:10 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Before all heck breaks loose i'd like to add my two cents. I have my own personal issues with people using the term "master" and why it is used, regardless of if it is bestowed or self proclaimed. I personally don't feel anyone is possible of true mastery as the arts, regardless of the system or lack thereof, is an on going life long pursuit. If it is only a title then why can't another term be used in it's place. If it is only a title then it only applies to your particular art or dojo/dojang and has no bearing anywhere else, as we don't know the requirements of your system for attaining such a title.

This is the only thing i have issue with here.
Quote:

I also used it in my posting to add credence to the fact that there is some basis to what I am writing.




Let me add that i do understand what you are saying in your post and understand your point of view here. What i'm having a problem with, as Iím sure some others are as well is the feeling that you need to include such a title in your posting to add relevance to it. As has already been stated earlier, most here care more about the quality of your posts than any rank or title you could ever attain. The reason being is we don't always know the requirements of your system for rank or title, for all we know you could "earn" the title of master simply by doing the "grandmaster's" laundry every week for 10 years. If this is the case then your title is pointless outside your system. The content of your posts however can and will tell a lot in regards to who you are and what you know.

You will find there are several here with a great deal of experience and several with very little experience. Their common thread is their desire to contribute, discuss and understand each other. Some with be a bit short at times, i'm very guilty of this quite often, but for the most part they are looking to keep the air clear and protect newer practitioners from many of the popular misconceptions and frauds in the arts today. I personally seek training in several arts that issue rank but choose not to recognize rank for myself. My feeling is rank structure is very subjective and holds no bearing in an open forum such as this due to the fact that most here are from different styles if any at all. So what do i care what your rank is? I only care about the content of your posts.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#197131 - 09/04/06 02:41 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
thanks for explaining. Technically, Goju doesn't have rank. Miyagi never awarded a shodan. It's a personal choice to use rank/titles or not. It's also a personal choice to proclaim them or not. I can see the usefulness of kyu ranks if employed properly, but dan ranks and titles have been so abused and distorted - they no longer have meaning other than to immediate students or within an organization.

My point to the original topic, was if someone wants to call themselves 'master', 'supreme grandmaster', '10th dan', 'dai soke', etc ...then there is nothing stopping them.

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#197132 - 09/04/06 04:11 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: roostergunner]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Do not feel alone Scott,many on this site would tell you that you are not even qualified to judge whether or not a plate of noodles tastes good to you. This is the treatment that I have recieved.




Yeah they can say that then it is up to the individual. Isnt that what debating is about?

Reading a lot of stuff put forward on this forum can lead a person to the answers they are looking for.Or it can make them aware of certain things in training that they have over looked or thought irelevent.Sometimes it can seem to
get heated, humans are humans But even during the heat of an argument knowledge comes through.


Or make a persons mind come out of the comfort zone and re engage the brain cells to study further.


Or people on here start mind boggling, thought provoking discussions (normaly Ed is good at that)



I think what you might have to understand(and you more than likely know) is that there is that much BS in the martial arts world that people tend to doubt before they believe.


Ego is an interesting thing. I use mine to make me train harder.



Hope this made sense

Thanks Andy


Edited by ANDY44 (09/04/06 04:40 AM)

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#197133 - 09/04/06 04:24 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

Joel-

I do appreciate the welcome, however, henceforth I will likely sit back and read others comments and let them pontificate on their knowledge because it seems as though these folks feel they already have the knowledge of Solomon.





Hi There

Just a small point I would like to make/ Dan grades dont mean that much to me. 1st dan to me means knowledge of the basics.
after that its either further learning and proving knowledge of that learning or dan grades are awarded for service etc.

I dont doubt grades just I would rather listen to the persons knowledge.You will find on this forum people with a great deal of excellent knowledge. But Like me still learning.



Thanks

Andy


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#197134 - 09/04/06 11:14 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hi Scott. Welcome to the forums.

As you can see, we tend to be a bit suspicious of those using titles. We have had a number of folks come on here claiming master/grandmaster/soke, etc that were clearly none of the above.

I hope that you stick around and contribute. If it means anything, your posts so far seem very intelligent and level-headed. We have some legit high ranks on the forums, but they are generally quiet about their ranks. You can tell easily by reading their posts, however.

It is unfortunate that the few that abuse titles make it difficult for the rest that have actually earned them.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#197135 - 09/04/06 08:53 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: MattJ]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Titles & ranks are really not that important. It doesn't bother me what someone calls themselves or claims a particular rank.
The way I look at it, the only ones that know someone's real worth as a master, is those that they teach. It is very hard to compare from 1 art to another, even within the same aRT - from 1 organization or school to another.

I would ask 2 questions:

1 has not yet been answered:
#1 why does the WTF have 10th degree?

#2 what qualifies someone as a master?

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#197136 - 09/04/06 09:49 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
As I understand #2, anybody running their own school regardless of rank is a Master. But from an actual rank perspective I believe (????) that 4th and up is considered a Master ... please correct me if I'm wrong.

In our system I am in contact with a 4th Dan (my Instructor and owner of his school), a 5th Dan (his partner and owner of another school) plus a 6th Dan (his partner and owner of another school; all affiliated). All of them I call "sir" and none ask any of their students to call them Master. However their teacher from South Korea is a 7th Dan and does use the title Master. This leads me to believe that it is a preference thing.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#197137 - 09/05/06 01:36 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
It is not my place to correct you. I was asking an opened ended question, as to what people thought qualifies someone as a master.
It is true that many who own schools are referred to or have people refer to them as masters. I guess they would have to in order to compete in the yellow pages & ads with competitiors etc.
I believe the WTF refers to those as 4th Dans as masters. I have heard that they now have jr masters or are starting something like that for 4th degrees & having 5th degrees called masters. I can be corrected on that as well.
The ITF refers to those who hold a 7th degree black belt as masters. That comes after approxiamtely 25+ years of study.

Again, there will be different standards for different groups/styles etc.

I am more interested in how people would think someone is a master, or why they would say someone is a master. In other words, what QUALIFIES them as a master.

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#197138 - 09/05/06 05:29 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

It is not my place to correct you. I was asking an opened ended question, as to what people thought qualifies someone as a master.







WEll my thougths on anybody calling them selves master
would be.

How good do they know their martial arts?

Im not bothered about the so called titles 7 dans or 10 th dans or masters.
if they have the knowledge then fine.

If they dont then?Gets all to political some times.






Edited by ANDY44 (09/05/06 05:32 AM)

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#197139 - 09/05/06 09:17 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
My first instructor was referred to as Sir. He is a blackbelt but I don't know what degree and still don't care. He was willing to teach and I was willing to learn. My current teacher is a 4th degree, soon to be 5th. Our system has a 4th as being master. I don't give a hoot what degree you are as long as you are willing to teach me something. As far as master is concerned..To become a master at anything takes time, pretty much a lifetime or possibly about a decade. Martial arts should be no different. To become a master should require about 5 - 10 years IMO; that would show he/she has devoted something important: a large part of their life. A master should be willing to teach (why learn something if you have no one to pass the knowledge), patient (part of the discipline learned in mastering the skill), and a couple of other things I can't think of this early in the morning. Maybe I'll add on later.
_________________________
Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

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#197140 - 09/05/06 08:27 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: stormbringer]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Very interesting & thanks.

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#197141 - 09/05/06 10:47 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
ScottWilson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 10
ITF Unity:
Great questions!!

I will attempt to give my response to your two questions. Take it for what it is worth.

However, it does appear that we are getting way to hung up on the word "Master"- I used it in relation to myself in my original post (where I addressed your question #1) and it created many thought provoking responses.

I cannot comment on other styles with as much clarity but as for Kukkiwon Taekwondo I will offer this (Kukkiwon is more accurate than "WTF" as they are the Dan issuing organization).

Keep in mind this relates to WTF/Kukkiwon Taekwondo:
The term "Master" is the term given to someone who holds a 4th-6th Dan. Grandmasters are 7th-9th Dans and they must have a Master underneath them. There are people who refer to the first generation Kwan founders as "Great Grandmaster".

Regardless of the title, it is only a term. The reason I use it (Master) is because it is typical of WTF/Kukkiwon Taekwondo. It is not just one or two solo instructors out there using the term-- once someone attains the required ranking they are generally accepted as Master-- that is all.

Master is the same as Shihan or other such title. In our style not many I know of call other insructors "mister or ms", but this is more common in some oter styles. Some schools use the korean equivalent of Sabumnim for Master and Kwangjangnim for Grandmaster, as well as the head of a school.

Really, do not get hung up on the title. I have been made aware even myself over the last few days that my use of it may have negative connotations to those who feel differently about titles.

In the Masonic Lodge the term "Worshipful Master" is used for someone who is presiding over the lodge and "Grand Master" for someone who presides over the Grand (State) lodge-- When you get your 3rd "degree" in the lodge you are a Master Mason--It is an old English term and its roots are very old in those cultures-- that does not mean they are your master, you do not bow down to them in submission-- ever since slave times I feel the term may have taken a negative turn. In my school students do bow, but out of respect, not out of submission.

Young children in British colonies and other places are often referred to as Master William or so on-- does this mean anything?? No. I reserved a hotel at Disney World for my family for later this year and my boys were termed "Master Shane" and "Master Sawyer" by the automated booking system of Disney. It is only a term. If your system or school utilizes it, fine. If they do not utilize it,that is also fine. It is all in realtion to the system or school that one comes from. I use it because I was taught to. It is common. I would be out of the ordinary in my style if I did differently. In other styles this is not the case. Some palces I visit go by "Instructor" or "Sensei" or "Mr" - It does not matter.

My personal thought is that by the time someone has attained a legitmate length of time in Martial Arts they have "mastered" the basics-- It does not mean they are perfect. As many others have stated "it is all in what one knows and how they impart that information". I have met many great Martial Artists who could not teach anyone, and I have met many unskilled (in my opinion) Martial Artists who could teach anyone. To find someone who has both the skill and the teaching aspect is the true challenge!

Again, some people resent the term Master, for whatever reason. My dear friend, Pat Burris, who was a 2 time Olympian in Judo as well as a Coach uses the term "Coach"- he doesn't care for anything else. This is coming from a guy who is arguably one of the best Judoka in the country. He was the youngest American to reach the 7th Dan ranking in Judo and was inducted 2 times into the Black Belt Hall of Fame. Yet, he never told me any of this and always insisted on being "Coach Burris"-- It was evident by his skill that he could teach me and that is what I wanted (and the fact that he could throw me or wrap me up anytime he pleased) and tothis day he is "Coach Burris"-

As for the original question #1. The Kukkiwon does have allocation for the advancement to 10th Dan, but you and I will likely never see that happen (okay- maybe a posthumous rank or a useless honorary rank, but I mean a real promotion to 10th Dan). My full understanding is that 8 original men from Korea were acknowledged as 10th Dan by the Kukkiwon after its formation (yes, formed by these same men and others). The "rank" was given to those 1st generation Kwan founders. Out of those 8 only 5 are still alive and they all live in South Korea. It is my full understanding that there are only 5and none are outside of Korea. It is like the 13th Dan allocation in Judo- it is there, but will likely never be used. In my opinion the rank of 9th Dan is truly the highest "ATTAINABLE" rank in Kukkiwon Taekwondo.

My "kwangjangnim" is Kyo Yoon Lee. He is the Han Moo Kwan founder and he was one of those involved in forming the WTF/ KTA/ Kukkiwon/ Palgwe Forms/ Taeguek Forms and he currently is the Chairman for the Subcommittee on high Dan (7th-9th) testing at the Kukkiwon (which tells you that they feel 7th-9th are high grades). The reason I tell you this is because I asked him personally what rank he was as he never said anything about rank. he simply said "I am given 10th Dan by Kukkiwon"- When I pressed more he explained who was 10th Dan and he told me who was still alive and who was deceased. He also explained to me that those Kwangjang (Kwan leaders) who came after the 1st generation are generally all 9th Dan. But, this aside, he does not use the rank. He rightfully uses the term "President, Han Moo Kwan".

I personally did not start using the term Master until much higher ranks started calling me Master. When Kyo Yoon Lee, as well as some US side Korean 9th Dans) recognized me publicly as such them I felt honored to use the title.

Even General Choi was looking at obtaining rank. If you have not read the history of the formation of TKD I would employ you to do so. There are interesting excerpts from those people who were there (including K Y Lee) and in it they explain how Choi asked for a 4th Dan credential, then again asked for a 6th Dan credential and even had a certificate filled out and waiting on a signature, which is the main reason for his expulsion from this group. Please- before you react- this is not a blast on ITF or Choi, he was a great, great Martial Artist and I admire his contributions. I am just stating history that I find interesting.

I hope this helps answer your questions. It is the best I can do.

Sincerely,
Scott Wilson

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#197142 - 09/06/06 04:32 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814


Edited by ANDY44 (09/06/06 04:42 AM)

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#197143 - 09/06/06 04:34 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ANDY44]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

ITF Unity:


Again, some people resent the term Master, for whatever reason. My dear friend, Pat Burris, who was a 2 time Olympian in Judo as well as a Coach uses the term "Coach"- he doesn't care for anything else. This is coming from a guy who is arguably one of the best Judoka in the country. He was the youngest American to reach the 7th Dan ranking in Judo and was inducted 2 times into the Black Belt Hall of Fame. Yet, he never told me any of this and always insisted on being "Coach Burris"-- It was evident by his skill that he could teach me and that is what I wanted (and the fact that he could throw me or wrap me up anytime he pleased) and tothis day he is "Coach Burris"-

Scott Wilson




Hi Scott. I think that your friend has a good way that most people can work with. A guy who has proven what he can do and wishes to be called coach.

The term master creates to much of an expectation or to many negative thougths.

5th dan is a 5th dan. I know some who are good and some who have good parts in their training and I know some who shouldnt be 5 th dans. But that is only my opinion.






Either way looking forward to your input in to matters on the forum.Perhaps if you cared to discuss the teaching methods the learning curve in your art?

say white belt upwards

Thanks

Andy



edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (09/06/06 08:11 AM)

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#197144 - 09/06/06 04:41 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ANDY44]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
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Quote:

Even General Choi was looking at obtaining rank. If you have not read the history of the formation of TKD I would employ you to do so. There are interesting excerpts from those people who were there (including K Y Lee) and in it they explain how Choi asked for a 4th Dan credential, then again asked for a 6th Dan credential and even had a certificate filled out and waiting on a signature, which is the main reason for his expulsion from this group. Please- before you react- this is not a blast on ITF or Choi, he was a great, great Martial Artist and I admire his contributions. I am just stating history that I find interesting.

Scott Wilson







To me this kind of thing spells politics. Burocrats.
The biggest thing that I have never been to interested in.
When I was younger the association I belonged to was full of it. Im not sure what others think but to me it gets in the way of training.

But each to their own I suppose.

Thanks

Andy



edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (09/06/06 08:09 AM)

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#197145 - 09/06/06 04:47 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: stormbringer]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
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Quote:

My first instructor was referred to as Sir. He is a blackbelt but I don't know what degree and still don't care. He was willing to teach and I was willing to learn. My current teacher is a 4th degree, soon to be 5th. Our system has a 4th as being master. I don't give a hoot what degree you are as long as you are willing to teach me something. As far as master is concerned..To become a master at anything takes time, pretty much a lifetime or possibly about a decade. Martial arts should be no different. To become a master should require about 5 - 10 years IMO; that would show he/she has devoted something important: a large part of their life. A master should be willing to teach (why learn something if you have no one to pass the knowledge), patient (part of the discipline learned in mastering the skill), and a couple of other things I can't think of this early in the morning. Maybe I'll add on later.





The instructor I have at ju jitsu is called by his first name. The guy is good.Realy good.We bow to each other in a circle no lines or pecking order. Like myself there are dan grades from other martial arts present, but no body wears a black belt. we just train hard.


including the instructor.


Edited by ANDY44 (09/06/06 04:49 AM)

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#197146 - 09/06/06 11:38 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
ITFunity Offline
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Very nice!

1st:

Does this list of 10th Dan Founders include Choi, Hong Hi as the Founder of the Oh Do Kwan?

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#197147 - 09/06/06 11:45 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ANDY44]
ITFunity Offline
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Yes, this is true. It is very political. In fact Taekwon-Do has always been very very very political, right from the start. It is because is was coming of age, when the Country was freed from colonial rule. The ROKorea was also coming of age. Its development, like many other developing countries was heavily affected & influenced by the military. This of course was where TKD was started. It was the power & influence that the military yielded that helped it to spread so fast & so far. There is of course good & bad in all that. It is however, the history. For many, politics is boring & interferes with the Art. I understand your complaint. It is a common one.

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#197148 - 09/06/06 11:49 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
mcmillintkd Offline
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The history of TKD has be written and rewritten so many times that you have to go back and read each version. The officials histories of both the ITF and WTF have been rewritten with things added and subtracted each time. Be careful when looking for the truth ...

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#197149 - 09/06/06 11:52 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ANDY44]
ITFunity Offline
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This is something that I see (think) is common among many of the MMAs. I think that they were not satisfied with the evolution of the MAs into kiddie baby sitting classes or McDoJangs & got down & dirty, in an attempt to concentrate on real effective self defence. I completely understand that. I also guess that the whole embracement of the Asian or Eastern philosophy/culture etc. may become secondary to their quest to learn real combat skills. I find no fault with this approach & in agreement with much of it. I guess it all depends on what you are looking for.

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#197150 - 09/06/06 11:58 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: mcmillintkd]
ITFunity Offline
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This is very true. I look forward to a book that is due out this October by Dr. Hee Young Kimm. He is an historian, with a PhD in History. He is also a martial artist. His book will deal with the history of Korean MAs. It is written by a scholar, who specializes in research. I understand that his work is backed up by evidence, as that is what historians & researchers do. Up to know, we have only had history written by those that were there & of course those versions have spin, depending on one's point of view.
I eagerly await his book. From my understanding, it is years in the making. I also believe that he backs up much of what Choi, Hong Hi said, although he finds & corrects. He has stated that the ROKorea is not going to be too happy with his research, as it corrects much of their spin.

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#197151 - 09/06/06 12:15 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
ITFunity Offline
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Sir:

Getting back to your thoughful post:
I have no problem with the use of the term master. I also respect the variations in how it is applied. In the ITF, SaBumNim is instructor 4-6 dan, SaHyeunNim is master 7 & 8 dan, with SaSungNim reserved for 9th, grandmaster.
So there is some examples of differences, which I see no problem with. 1 is not better than the other, just different. U really can't compare. For the ITF a 7th degree master would have studied for approximately 25 years, with 34 & 1/2 years old being the minimum age.

I see your point with the WTF/Kukkiwon. I always make that mistake. Sorry. BTW did you know that General Choi was suppossed to have come up with the name Kukkiwon?

I also sometimes tease the kids in the class that the boys are masters. I used to receive birthday cards when I was a kid addressed to me as master instead of mister. LOL

I am also very well aware of the history of TKD & the controversy around General Choi's rank. In fact, I would add that he said he studied TaeKyon, but that was NEVER independently verified. He alsostudied Karate in Japan & was suppossed to have been promoted to 2nd degree. That has not been fully verified. He was publicly listed as a 6th degree in 1959, then in his 1965 book, he is listed as a 9th degree, at 47 years of age.
I try to call it as I see it. I always seek new knowledge & love to learn more about the history of TKD. I do not take your post as an attack on the ITF or its founder. I am very well aware of many of our & his shortcomings. Being aware, helps me to be better.
You should be very proud of your title. I would have no problem with addressing you as Master.

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#197152 - 09/06/06 12:38 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
ITFunity Offline
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Still NO ONE has posted as to WHY the WTF/KTA or Kukkiwon has 10th degree as the highest. In other words the theory or philosophy behind the reason why #10 has apparently been selected as their terminal rank.

I offered the explaination behind the reasoning for the ITF having 9th degree as its terminal, highest rank.

I still await the reason why???????

In addition, I once came across a comparison for the martial arts use of master to the old days when we had master tradesman. In the years of the days gone by, there was very little formal education. Lawyers didn't go to Law school & graduate with a JD or LLD, LLM, LLB. They simply worked under one who knew the law. They were apprentices. After awhile, they branched out on the own. (Abraham Lincoln)
It was the same for blacksmiths. There was a master blacksmith. He took under his wing, his son(s) or other young men. For years, they helped, listened & learned. They forged their craft sweating, under his watchful eye & guidance, as apprentices. As their skills developed they were given more to do. Thus their skills developed further & they gained valuable experience. Experience that can only be obtained over time, precious time, that can not be rushed. Time is one of the key ingredients of experience.
Over time, these apprentices branched out on their own. What made them masters was not any certificate, blessing or proclamation by their teacher or the association of master blacksmiths inc. What made them masters was the people that they were to serve. It was their customers who called them masters, based on the quality of the workmanship.

I think this is a good analogy to the martial arts. A student starts training & over the years, learns, develops & hones their skills. Some day, they may share this knowledge with or on others. It is this use, after the years of study, that allows those they encounter to REALIZE they are Masters.
How does one know if someone is a Master? Who decides if they are referred to as a Master? To me - it is simple. It is those they serve that retain the right to bestow the title, by the quality of their work.

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#197153 - 09/06/06 03:07 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
Ed_Morris Offline
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yes, people have answered the question. you just haven't read the answer you are looking for.

dan grades come from Japan...specifically, Judo. Karate adopted the system, and then Korean TKD copied Karate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_rank

It started with just white (mudansha) and black (yudansha). 2 belts. no kyu's and no dan's.

The kyu ranks were created to keep students working toward a goal, while providing the teacher of increasing class sizes with an rough indication of student knowledge level.

The Dan ranks were created to solve dispute of hierarchy and basically for politics.

why "10" ? it's a nice even number. nothing more complicated than that. it's an arbitrary number which was decided and agreed upon by Japanese less than 100 years ago.

Karate adopted the system when it was being included as a Japanese MA. then, in the 40's...TKD after getting it's karate influence, followed suit.

In the past 2 decades, marketers have discovered that if they break up the kyu stepping from 10 levels to 20...they make more money and tend to have better student retainment.

so, in the future...dan ranks will probably see more levels. today's 10th dan may be tomorrow's 100th degree.

my rank is timeless though...I'm an Nth degree.

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#197154 - 09/06/06 03:50 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
ScottWilson Offline
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Ditto with Ed.

-Scott

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#197155 - 09/06/06 04:29 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
Dereck Offline
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Again, a very well written post Scott, nicely done.

You are correct, it depends which school as there are so many different ways these are handled by schools. Our system is Kukkiwon as well and my own Instructor goes by Sir and holds a 4th Dan in Taekwondo amongst other gradings under other sytems. His partners and owners of sister schools are 5th and 6th Dans and go my Sir as well. Their own South Korean Instructor is a 7th Dan and only goes by Master. He has held this rank forever and I believe even before my own Instructor even held a Dan ranking. Their Master has been training since a child and has been teaching for over 35 years ... so I'm guessing he's around 60+ years, just as a point of reference. Again each to their own.

If you want to call yourself Master Scott Wilson and you are proud of that then I am fine with that. I'd be more then happy to train with you. On this forum people may take offense to that but you can decide for yourself how you want to handle this. Things are a little less formal here so even though some of us are lower ranked and some of us are higher ranked, we are all treated as equals. I think that some find that the Master title doesn't make them as equal but I think in the reality of things that is small potatoes. If you don't mind I will call you Scott and I will treat you as an equal that even though you clearly out rank me and in a school setting I would honor you as such. I hope that meets with your approval and understanding. Take care Scott.
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#197156 - 09/06/06 04:46 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Dereck]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

Ditto with Ed.
-Scott




Quote:

Again, a very well written post Scott, nicely done.





LMAO.

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#197157 - 09/06/06 04:52 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
Dereck Offline
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Thanks Ed ... not that post, the previous longer one. Smart ass.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#197158 - 09/06/06 11:59 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
ITFunity Offline
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Posts: 2053
Thanks for the link. However, niether your post, the link or anyone else's post has explained the reasoning behind why 10th degree is the terminal rank in the WTF/KTA or Kukkiwon.

Sorry for being so persistent, but I am truly trying to find out if there is a stated/documented reason why 10th degree is the highest.

If I have been remiss, or have just missed where it was posted, kindly redirect me to it.

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#197159 - 09/07/06 12:29 AM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I'll type slower...

TKD.copied.the.dan.system.from.Japanese.Budo.

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#197160 - 09/07/06 12:24 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
ITFunity Offline
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lol

Sorry, I don't mean to be a pain. I do realize that this was posted.
However, Taekwon-Do's original ranking system had 8 gup levels & 9 black belt levels. Since modern day Taekwon-Do did not exist till the 20th century, I would agree that much did come from & evolve from the other Arts practiced at the time. Since the Japanese had colonized Korea, the influence of the Arts of the Japanese Empire were very strong.

Now there is a specific reason for why ITF Taekwon-Do has 9 levels of black belts. I would copy my previous post, but do not know how. One may scroll above to find it.

So ITF Taekwon-Do does not copy, as they have 9 compared to 10 levels.

MY question is still unanswered:
What is the reason behind the WTF/KTA & Kukkiwon using 10 degree ranks?

If your answer remains they copied off the Japanese, then that is fine, but then I would ask WHY did the Japanese decide on 10?
Is there any specific reason written/documented for the use of 10 as their terminal degree?

If one does not know the answer, that is fine, as I do not know it either. That is why I am asking. But so far, no one has offered an explanation that goes at the heart of the question. Please forgive me for attempting to seek knowledge.

I would say we are beating a dead horse, but we are not, as no one has yet offered an answer, so I continue.

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#197161 - 09/07/06 02:31 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
Ed_Morris Offline
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ok, so you can accept TKD followed suit from Japanese arts influence. next step: "WHY did the Japanese decide on 10?"

answer: according to http://www.e-budokai.com/articles/belts.htm
"Sometime shortly after he (J. Kano) decided to form his own jujutsu style, Dr. Kano also revised the ranking system, creating ten steps with relatively short intervals to keep judo students interested in progressing through the various technical levels."

why 10? I never got a chance to ask Dr. Kano, so I don't know. In order to guess...you have to look at was there any significance to the number '10' in Japanese culture during the 1880's ? perhaps it being during Japan's moderization period (Meiji), that he decided a on a more universally and mathematically accepted base '10' than a number held on local superstition or religious belief. who knows.


thats one part of the question...the other part is easier to answer...'why does ITF have 9 dans?'

Quote:

According to General Choi, "The reason for nine black belt degrees is that the number three is a powerful number in the orient, and therefore three threes must be the most powerful."




...unless of course, someone comes along with 3*3*3 = 27th dan. Then THEY are the most powerful. lol

I think in the General Choi case, it was a matter of carving out a national identity which was unwantingly heavily influenced by the Japanese. so instead of following exactly...they change it to nine and make something up to make it sound significant and by design. also shortly after, the belt colors came attached with symbolic stories.

can't blame them for wanting to carve out national identity after being nearly assimilated by Japan...but it still carries over into today with the TKD 4000+ years old claims based on a cave drawing discovered showing a guy lifting his leg..."see! it's TKD!!".

anyway...some direction for further reading if you want...hope that at least brings you closer to what you are trying to find out.

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#197162 - 09/07/06 02:34 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
laf7773 Offline
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The question has been answered. There is no written "reason" for the use of 10 dan grades. In the "old days" in Japan ranking, if you want to call it that, was in three primary levels shoden (not to be confused with shodan), chuden and okuden or low, middle and high level. Some would argue there was a fourth level, hiden, that was taught only to a select few or in some cases only one student who was to become the inheritor of the system. As was pointed out the current dan grade system was developed more to develop a rank structure most likely for political reasons within the system.

One explanation i have heard is that Kano stated at one point that there was no limit to the dan level an individual could attain. If someone were to attain a level higher than 10th dan they could be awarded rank higher than 10th dan, but since no one was ever awarded rank higher than 10th dan the Kodokan effectively took on a 10 dan rank structure. Since this was the first rank system of it's kind other systems simply followed suit instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. It wasn't till recent years that various "systems" began to go out side this imaginary boundary and take on various rank structures.

I don't know anything about the ITF but i would imagine their reason for only having 9 dan grades may have something to do with 10th dan being reserved for that organizations original founder and is not to be reissued leaving 9th dan it's highest attainable rank.

Hope this answers your question better and this horse can die in peace now.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#197163 - 09/07/06 02:38 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: laf7773]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Quote:

One explanation i have heard is that Kano stated at one point that there was no limit to the dan level an individual could attain.




finally! a justification for my 'Nth Degree' !!! lol

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#197164 - 09/07/06 02:45 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
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Quote by Ed Morris -

Quote:

...unless of course, someone comes along with 3*3*3 = 27th dan. Then THEY are the most powerful. lol




OMG don't give them any ideas, Ed!
_________________________
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#197165 - 09/07/06 02:57 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: MattJ]
Victor Smith Offline
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Loc: Derry, NH
I realize I'm jumping into this quite late as I normally don't get into rank issues, but I have some thoughts that might assist.

One no organization needs to explain how its structured to junior members. Then again junior members can always go elsewhere.

Second the link between the Korean systems and the Japanese systems will never be explained or justified to anyone. After 50 years of being crushed by Japan (just check out one the on line Seoul newspapers and still see articles about those times) under no circumstances do the Koreans feel any need to explain anyting to anyone. Just one wanting to know the answer is no reason that they'd ever care to give you one.

The inter-relationship of Japanese structures on the Korean arts, while there, are too painful to ackknowledge.

Put youself in their shoes, they still despise Japan, and always will once you understand what japan did.

So why 9 versus 10 dans, is unknowlable.

But 10 isn't a standard. Some Japanese systems only have 5, others 9 or 10, and the Nijutsu dudes have gone to 15 recently. Kano's Judo has 12 though only up to 10 have been awarded so far.

From my perspective the strongest dan structure will be the 6*6*6. When reached will signify the end of all time and what the holder of such grand rank really is.. a devil.
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#197166 - 09/07/06 03:54 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Victor Smith]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Victor, I have 6 letters in each of my first,middle and last names...coincidence? mwahaha

one last thought on the subject...time between grades.
1st to 2nd dan - 2 years
2nd to 3rd - 3 years
3rd to 4th - 4 years
etc

so 1st to 10th would be a rough minimum of:
2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10 = 54 years.

add to that, the age you start plus time it takes for kyu ranks. ...say, another 10 years minimum.

so a 10th dan (by even the roughest estimates) would be in their 60's.


this rough guideline (for the 10 dan system) seems reasonable and is sortof an accepted outline. but as victor says in so many words ....'meh'.

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#197167 - 09/07/06 04:24 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
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Ed, now that you mention it perhaps you are the 6*6*6 of legend. You certainly know how to jack up the heat <GRIN>

Perhaps it's time to drop the white belt and assume the end of all days.
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#197168 - 09/07/06 05:16 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
ITFunity Offline
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Thanks for the link Ed, it was a very good & interesting read!
So I guess that is something that is lost to history. That is unfortunate. I kinda of think it is neat that in ITF we have a much more recent 20th century history. It is easier for us to find out some of these underlying reasons, which again I think is neat. It really doesn't have much to do with kicking & punching, but for me it is neat, but I said that already. LOL

You are also 100% right on with your comments about the push for nationalism. That movement was very strong in post war Korea & General Choi was very much a nationalist. It si plain to see this in how he shaped his art to be different from the Japanese base.
However, the number 3 in the orient, is the most esteemed of all the numbers. The Chinese character (many sophisicated/educated Koreans wrote in Chinese) is written with 3 horizontal lines, 1 on top of the other. The upper line symbolized heaven, the middle mortals & the bottom line earth. It was believed the person who was successful in promoting his country, fellowmne & God & able to reach an accord with all 3 would aspire to become king. The character for king was written the same way, but had a vertical line intersecting the 3 horizontal lines. The 2 characters are nearly synonymous. When 3 is mutiplied by itself, the result is 9, the highest of the single digits numbers. The number 9 is also the only number that has the following property:
9x3=27 take the 2 + 7 = 9
5x9=45 4 + 5 = 9
9x9=81 8 = 1 = 9
This holds true for all the mutiplies on 9. No other single digit number has this property. This according to General Choi again indicates that 9 is the most positive of numbers.
He takes the whole 3 thing 1 step further:
the 9 degrees are broken into 3 classes
1-3 degree beginners
4-6 degree experts or instructors
7-9 degree masters, those who fully understand the mental & physical aspects of his art.
He ends with saying that the reason for the 1 - 10 & the 10 - 1 system is ageless & lost in antiquity.

I like reading & learning these things. Thanks for sharing & I hope I am not boring every 1.

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#197169 - 09/07/06 05:22 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: laf7773]
ITFunity Offline
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Thanks laf7773
see my post above & in addition, just to be clear, there is no 10th dan in ITF, never was, not even for the founder, who died a 9 dan (apparently self promoted, as the founder of his system, I guess, but thats another topic)

Also in the above post, you can see why there was a very specific reasoning for having 9 as the terminal degree. During his lifetime he promoted only 5 people to 9th degree. There have been 5 others promoted to 9th after his death by 2 of the 3 ITFs.

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#197170 - 09/07/06 05:26 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Victor Smith]
ITFunity Offline
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Posts: 2053
Yes Victor, the hatred for the harm inflicted on Korea by the japanese Empire is very real.

However, as you can see, there is a written & documented reason why ITF Taekwon-Do has only 9 levels of bb, as compared to the WTF/KTA & Kukkiwon.

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#197171 - 09/07/06 05:31 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

I'll type slower...

TKD.copied.the.dan.system.from.Japanese.Budo.





ED Man! behave!


Your up to your thought provoking stuff again.
You make history sound interesting.




Edited by ANDY44 (09/07/06 05:36 PM)

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#197172 - 09/07/06 05:53 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Even General Choi was looking at obtaining rank. If you have not read the history of the formation of TKD I would employ you to do so. There are interesting excerpts from those people who were there (including K Y Lee) and in it they explain how Choi asked for a 4th Dan credential, then again asked for a 6th Dan credential and even had a certificate filled out and waiting on a signature, which is the main reason for his expulsion from this group.



Actually, from what Ive heard that is incorrect and only a WTF slant on it. Some guys who know more about the history of it all than I wrote the following: It was Son, DukSun that "cancelled" Gen. Choi's 4th Dan. I've heard several people who don't like Gen. Choi bring this up. They rather conveniently forget to mention that GM Son, Duk Son also expelled Uhm Woon Kyu from the Chung Do Kwan. GM Uhm then became the very next Kwan Jang, despite GM Son having expelled him. That might say something about him revoking Gen. Choi's rank, too...

GM Son tried to get on the 1959 demo team going to Vietnam. Gen. Choi refused saying it was a military team and since GM Son was a civilian he couldn't go. this did not sit well with GM Son which I believe brought about the expulsions.

What can not be left out of that story is that in the very same newspaper ad where GM Son "cancelled" General Choi's Dan Certificate he also expelled GM Uhm and GM Nam Tae Hi from the Chung Do Kwan. Shortly therafter GM Sun was gone from the Chung Do Kwan, Nam Tae Hi was in good standing (Still is) and GM Uhm replaced him as president and still is. Not to hard to figure out what Chung Do Kwan members thought of GM Son's actions.

Quote:

Please- before you react- this is not a blast on ITF or Choi, he was a great, great Martial Artist and I admire his contributions. I am just stating history that I find interesting.



The problem is, the WTF have re-written the history to suit them, hence this is not a reaction, just the facts.

Quote:

When the kwan founders came together and formed what we call Taekwondo (including the WTF, KTA & Kukkiwon) they were all acknowledged as 10th Dan/Founders.



This statement simply proves the above point and my first post on this issue. The nameing of TKD was headed by General Choi, whose highest rank was ever a 9th degree, how would the kwan founders (which are no doubt all WTF now) all have been promoted higher at the same time as one of the main actually recognisible founders!!!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#197173 - 09/07/06 05:57 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I'll type slower...

TKD.copied.the.dan.system.from.Japanese.Budo.




As you said (I think) - it was judo that introduced the belt system, though Im not sure if they included any 10th dan BB levels back then.

Even when Karate took it on board, was there 10th dan levels. People like Enoeda were only 8th dans and they were the highest calibre in the world. When I started training a 5th dan in karate was a god!

I would be interested to see some old written evidence (pre 1950's) of the 10th dan level being in exsistance back then - perhaps it is in one of the Funakoshi books etc I dont know!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#197174 - 09/07/06 09:47 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: StuartA]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you may find this site interesting:
http://www.judoinfo.com/judan.htm

also of interest (this is just hearsay, as it comes off of a judo forum - but still interesting if someone wants to study further):

Quote:

I recall well sitting in the Machi Dojo of a senior Kodansha where I asked my only question. I was informed that Dr Kano was indeed awarded the grade of 10th Dan by the Kodanshakai, being a very humble person he accepted the award BUT then, to clearly demostrate that no Judoka could ever reach the top, promptly devised the 11th (juichi) and 12th (juni) dans purly to show his pupils that eveh he could not be considered at the top. His pupils then confired upon him the title of shihan. Dr Kano himself never used any title other than count. To have NOT used the title count would have been a slur on the emperor.
As you know these stories where translated from Japanese into English and I was young and half paying attention so...... Later in life I actualy read this story and it was again conformed by further study.




and to put it in perspective...here's how it affected Karate:
http://www.judoinfo.com/karateranks.htm

sidenote:
http://tkdtutor.com/02Taekwondo/Belts/BeltHistory.htm
Quote:

The belt encircles its wearer. The circle is a universal symbol of wholeness and harmony, and symbolizes the totality of the universe. The circularity of the belt reinforces the circular cycle of Taekwondo training; the fact that, after years of training, one realizes that the true essence of Taekwondo existed at the beginning.

As a practical matter, the Taekwondo belt holds the uniform closed, but its real significance is far greater than merely being a clasp or even a signifier of rank. The belt has symbolic meanings, both in eastern philosophy and in its color.



this is what I was talking about...creating meaning AFTER the fact of it's invention, is the invention of meaning. why? for identity. why? for national pride. absolutely a country recoving from the onslaught of a hostile assimilation is entitled to recover it's face. but I don't get why this has perpetuated into present-day western culture - other than for marketability I suppose....selling a story as it were. It's harmless for sure, and it probably makes kids feel good wearing a 'sunny' yellow belt and such. so it's neither here nor there, other than worth a chuckle when I hear adults believing in the hyperbole.

"1st" or "10th" is as arbitrary as "Nth". it's an interesting subject to revisit now and then, but the rest of the time - forget about belts and just train.

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#197175 - 09/07/06 11:17 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Spot On Mr. A!

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#197176 - 09/07/06 11:26 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Again Ed, great links - thanks

Also the bit from TKD Tutor is not correct. Remember ITF DoBoks are joined in the middle by a zipper or velcro, that insure against the shirt coming apart. Also the WTF uses pullover V neck DoBoks so there is no undoing of the shirt there as well.

Another point of information, but I do not find any of the stated reasons behind why something is done or what the symbolization is hyperbole. In fact I find it very interesting. I am amazed at the way the ITF has a reason for everything they do. It is 1 of the training secrets of Taekwon-Do to know the purpose &meaning of each movement clearly. I am further amazed when I see or hear other students say they don't know why something is done. They kinda do it, because they were told to.

Finally, since Taekwon-Do is a very young/new martial art, with a very sophisicated founder, it was possible to have these underlying reasons or symbols. I for 1 think it is major kool.

But like you said, above all, the most important thing is the sweat & advancement that comes from training.

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#197177 - 09/07/06 11:56 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ITFunity]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
whatever you are into is cool. given the choice, I'd rather an instructor say "I don't know" instead of a bedtime story....but thats just me.

(I was the type of kid that, on my 8th christmas, refused to open my presents until my parents told me the truth if santa was real or not. lol sadly, a true story. they leveled with me though...and you know what? knowing the truth didn't make me feel better about christmas, but I enjoyed the presents all the same. I won't spoil it for you, and let you find out for yourself where the presents come from. )

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