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#197167 - 09/07/06 04:24 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Ed, now that you mention it perhaps you are the 6*6*6 of legend. You certainly know how to jack up the heat <GRIN>

Perhaps it's time to drop the white belt and assume the end of all days.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#197168 - 09/07/06 05:16 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Thanks for the link Ed, it was a very good & interesting read!
So I guess that is something that is lost to history. That is unfortunate. I kinda of think it is neat that in ITF we have a much more recent 20th century history. It is easier for us to find out some of these underlying reasons, which again I think is neat. It really doesn't have much to do with kicking & punching, but for me it is neat, but I said that already. LOL

You are also 100% right on with your comments about the push for nationalism. That movement was very strong in post war Korea & General Choi was very much a nationalist. It si plain to see this in how he shaped his art to be different from the Japanese base.
However, the number 3 in the orient, is the most esteemed of all the numbers. The Chinese character (many sophisicated/educated Koreans wrote in Chinese) is written with 3 horizontal lines, 1 on top of the other. The upper line symbolized heaven, the middle mortals & the bottom line earth. It was believed the person who was successful in promoting his country, fellowmne & God & able to reach an accord with all 3 would aspire to become king. The character for king was written the same way, but had a vertical line intersecting the 3 horizontal lines. The 2 characters are nearly synonymous. When 3 is mutiplied by itself, the result is 9, the highest of the single digits numbers. The number 9 is also the only number that has the following property:
9x3=27 take the 2 + 7 = 9
5x9=45 4 + 5 = 9
9x9=81 8 = 1 = 9
This holds true for all the mutiplies on 9. No other single digit number has this property. This according to General Choi again indicates that 9 is the most positive of numbers.
He takes the whole 3 thing 1 step further:
the 9 degrees are broken into 3 classes
1-3 degree beginners
4-6 degree experts or instructors
7-9 degree masters, those who fully understand the mental & physical aspects of his art.
He ends with saying that the reason for the 1 - 10 & the 10 - 1 system is ageless & lost in antiquity.

I like reading & learning these things. Thanks for sharing & I hope I am not boring every 1.

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#197169 - 09/07/06 05:22 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: laf7773]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Thanks laf7773
see my post above & in addition, just to be clear, there is no 10th dan in ITF, never was, not even for the founder, who died a 9 dan (apparently self promoted, as the founder of his system, I guess, but thats another topic)

Also in the above post, you can see why there was a very specific reasoning for having 9 as the terminal degree. During his lifetime he promoted only 5 people to 9th degree. There have been 5 others promoted to 9th after his death by 2 of the 3 ITFs.

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#197170 - 09/07/06 05:26 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Victor Smith]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes Victor, the hatred for the harm inflicted on Korea by the japanese Empire is very real.

However, as you can see, there is a written & documented reason why ITF Taekwon-Do has only 9 levels of bb, as compared to the WTF/KTA & Kukkiwon.

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#197171 - 09/07/06 05:31 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

I'll type slower...

TKD.copied.the.dan.system.from.Japanese.Budo.





ED Man! behave!


Your up to your thought provoking stuff again.
You make history sound interesting.




Edited by ANDY44 (09/07/06 05:36 PM)

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#197172 - 09/07/06 05:53 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: ScottWilson]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Even General Choi was looking at obtaining rank. If you have not read the history of the formation of TKD I would employ you to do so. There are interesting excerpts from those people who were there (including K Y Lee) and in it they explain how Choi asked for a 4th Dan credential, then again asked for a 6th Dan credential and even had a certificate filled out and waiting on a signature, which is the main reason for his expulsion from this group.



Actually, from what Ive heard that is incorrect and only a WTF slant on it. Some guys who know more about the history of it all than I wrote the following: It was Son, DukSun that "cancelled" Gen. Choi's 4th Dan. I've heard several people who don't like Gen. Choi bring this up. They rather conveniently forget to mention that GM Son, Duk Son also expelled Uhm Woon Kyu from the Chung Do Kwan. GM Uhm then became the very next Kwan Jang, despite GM Son having expelled him. That might say something about him revoking Gen. Choi's rank, too...

GM Son tried to get on the 1959 demo team going to Vietnam. Gen. Choi refused saying it was a military team and since GM Son was a civilian he couldn't go. this did not sit well with GM Son which I believe brought about the expulsions.

What can not be left out of that story is that in the very same newspaper ad where GM Son "cancelled" General Choi's Dan Certificate he also expelled GM Uhm and GM Nam Tae Hi from the Chung Do Kwan. Shortly therafter GM Sun was gone from the Chung Do Kwan, Nam Tae Hi was in good standing (Still is) and GM Uhm replaced him as president and still is. Not to hard to figure out what Chung Do Kwan members thought of GM Son's actions.

Quote:

Please- before you react- this is not a blast on ITF or Choi, he was a great, great Martial Artist and I admire his contributions. I am just stating history that I find interesting.



The problem is, the WTF have re-written the history to suit them, hence this is not a reaction, just the facts.

Quote:

When the kwan founders came together and formed what we call Taekwondo (including the WTF, KTA & Kukkiwon) they were all acknowledged as 10th Dan/Founders.



This statement simply proves the above point and my first post on this issue. The nameing of TKD was headed by General Choi, whose highest rank was ever a 9th degree, how would the kwan founders (which are no doubt all WTF now) all have been promoted higher at the same time as one of the main actually recognisible founders!!!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#197173 - 09/07/06 05:57 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I'll type slower...

TKD.copied.the.dan.system.from.Japanese.Budo.




As you said (I think) - it was judo that introduced the belt system, though Im not sure if they included any 10th dan BB levels back then.

Even when Karate took it on board, was there 10th dan levels. People like Enoeda were only 8th dans and they were the highest calibre in the world. When I started training a 5th dan in karate was a god!

I would be interested to see some old written evidence (pre 1950's) of the 10th dan level being in exsistance back then - perhaps it is in one of the Funakoshi books etc I dont know!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#197174 - 09/07/06 09:47 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: StuartA]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you may find this site interesting:
http://www.judoinfo.com/judan.htm

also of interest (this is just hearsay, as it comes off of a judo forum - but still interesting if someone wants to study further):

Quote:

I recall well sitting in the Machi Dojo of a senior Kodansha where I asked my only question. I was informed that Dr Kano was indeed awarded the grade of 10th Dan by the Kodanshakai, being a very humble person he accepted the award BUT then, to clearly demostrate that no Judoka could ever reach the top, promptly devised the 11th (juichi) and 12th (juni) dans purly to show his pupils that eveh he could not be considered at the top. His pupils then confired upon him the title of shihan. Dr Kano himself never used any title other than count. To have NOT used the title count would have been a slur on the emperor.
As you know these stories where translated from Japanese into English and I was young and half paying attention so...... Later in life I actualy read this story and it was again conformed by further study.




and to put it in perspective...here's how it affected Karate:
http://www.judoinfo.com/karateranks.htm

sidenote:
http://tkdtutor.com/02Taekwondo/Belts/BeltHistory.htm
Quote:

The belt encircles its wearer. The circle is a universal symbol of wholeness and harmony, and symbolizes the totality of the universe. The circularity of the belt reinforces the circular cycle of Taekwondo training; the fact that, after years of training, one realizes that the true essence of Taekwondo existed at the beginning.

As a practical matter, the Taekwondo belt holds the uniform closed, but its real significance is far greater than merely being a clasp or even a signifier of rank. The belt has symbolic meanings, both in eastern philosophy and in its color.



this is what I was talking about...creating meaning AFTER the fact of it's invention, is the invention of meaning. why? for identity. why? for national pride. absolutely a country recoving from the onslaught of a hostile assimilation is entitled to recover it's face. but I don't get why this has perpetuated into present-day western culture - other than for marketability I suppose....selling a story as it were. It's harmless for sure, and it probably makes kids feel good wearing a 'sunny' yellow belt and such. so it's neither here nor there, other than worth a chuckle when I hear adults believing in the hyperbole.

"1st" or "10th" is as arbitrary as "Nth". it's an interesting subject to revisit now and then, but the rest of the time - forget about belts and just train.

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#197175 - 09/07/06 11:17 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Spot On Mr. A!

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#197176 - 09/07/06 11:26 PM Re: Tenth Level Black Belt [Re: Ed_Morris]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Again Ed, great links - thanks

Also the bit from TKD Tutor is not correct. Remember ITF DoBoks are joined in the middle by a zipper or velcro, that insure against the shirt coming apart. Also the WTF uses pullover V neck DoBoks so there is no undoing of the shirt there as well.

Another point of information, but I do not find any of the stated reasons behind why something is done or what the symbolization is hyperbole. In fact I find it very interesting. I am amazed at the way the ITF has a reason for everything they do. It is 1 of the training secrets of Taekwon-Do to know the purpose &meaning of each movement clearly. I am further amazed when I see or hear other students say they don't know why something is done. They kinda do it, because they were told to.

Finally, since Taekwon-Do is a very young/new martial art, with a very sophisicated founder, it was possible to have these underlying reasons or symbols. I for 1 think it is major kool.

But like you said, above all, the most important thing is the sweat & advancement that comes from training.

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