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#196439 - 11/07/05 01:44 PM Re: Knife to the throat from the back. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Tsujin Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/30/05
Posts: 13
Loc: Ottawa
I believe, the most effective way to disarm someone who is at you back (due to practise with my partener) is to use your feet, not hands. You see you have to hurt them enough to distract them. For example. If you stomp on someone's toe, they grab their foot, or look down. It's human nature. Like sneezing and closing your eyes. Make them do something that can't be helped. Of course I'm not saying run out and test this, nor am I saying that if the situation does arise, to listen to my advice. But, if you want to practise those techiniques that help you to disarm people who have you at a disadvantage then you should try. (Be careful, seriously, use a watergun or something like a stick)

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#196440 - 11/07/05 02:07 PM Re: Knife to the throat from the back. [Re: Tsujin]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

I believe, the most effective way to disarm someone who is at you back (due to practise with my partener) is to use your feet, not hands. You see you have to hurt them enough to distract them. For example. If you stomp on someone's toe, they grab their foot, or look down. It's human nature. Like sneezing and closing your eyes. Make them do something that can't be helped. Of course I'm not saying run out and test this, nor am I saying that if the situation does arise, to listen to my advice. But, if you want to practise those techiniques that help you to disarm people who have you at a disadvantage then you should try. (Be careful, seriously, use a watergun or something like a stick)




The risk with this is that if you stomp his foot or rake your heal down his shin..he may convulse in pain and pull the trigger.. You need to redirect the weapon before he can pull the trigger..
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#196441 - 11/07/05 03:16 PM Re: Knife to the throat from the back. [Re: RangerG]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Agreed. Plus, there is always the inherent danger that your assailant is hopped up on crack or crystal meth and can't feel pain on a normal level. Even worse would be someone on PCP. If you can control the weapon and strike the feet simultaneously, you're gold, but make sure that you GET THAT WEAPON!!!

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#196442 - 11/08/05 04:17 PM Re: Knife to the throat from the back. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
fattts14 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 224
Loc: T.O. On, Can
"The Knife Defense Myth"


Instead of talking about a lot of b.s. concerning so-called unarmed "knife" defenses, let's reverse roles for a moment.

Let us assume the "role" of the attacker, instead of the "defender".
First, let's consider the "choice" of weapon.

A knife or any edged weapon is an "up close and personal" tool of ferocious and brutal mayhem. You have to close with your mark and physically, violently and with extreme prejudice stab, slash, and hack him to bits. It's not like a gun, which could have an element of detachment. No, a knife is about as personal, brutal and ruthless as it gets.

So what kind of "mind-set" does this entail? You are going close with your target hard and fast, using deception, surprise or simply a committed and brutal pouncing. You are going to be determined, ruthless, brutal, ferocious, vicious, and most probably filled with hate and rage.

You are going to seize the target with abject brutality and stab, slash, hack and eviscerate with totally committed rage, ferocity and hate. OVER and OVER and OVER.

NOTHING is going to stand in your way. NOTHING! You are going to DESTROY whatever DOES attempt to thwart your murderous assault. You will attack repeatedly with ALL the strength, speed, and brutality you are capable of. And THAT will be heightened even MORE by rage and adrenalin.

You KNOW that you MUST get this over with QUICKLY. Your attack will be a frenzy of hate, rage and murderous INTENT.

You WON'T "feint" with your blade, you WON'T "spar" with your blade, you WON'T "half-step" with your blade.

You WILL attack with brutal and ruthless rage. You WILL punch, kick, bite, gouge, butt, and do ANY and EVERYTHING that will accomplish you GOAL in as ferocious a manner as inhumanly possible.

Unless YOU are killed outright, NO injury will dissuade you from KILLING your mark. In FACT, anything LESS than your death, will ONLY add MORE FUEL to YOUR FIRE. NOTHING, short of your immediate demise CAN stop you. Rage, hate, murderous intent and adrenalin are fueling you to an almost superhuman state of FRENZY and FEROCITY!

Even when your man goes down, and DOWN you are determined to put him, YOU still continue the assault. You stab and stab and stab. You kick and stomp OVER and OVER and OVER again.

You DON'T even begin to "disengage" until your "blood" lust has been quenched, and your mark taken off the count.

THAT is what REALLY happens when one human being uses a knife on another.

Face that FACT squarely. Too many are "playing" knife gymnastics without EVER even realizing what the street has in store for them. It isn't going to be pretty!

Are you REALLY preparing to DEAL with THAT?

Or are you kidding yourself and others?

REALITY sucks, as they say. But it is what it is!




My instructors response...
I somewhat agree with this article by Carl however this only occurs in a very small percentage of stabbing cases (under 10%) - only when its "personal" or if the attacker is on drugs or he feels threatened etc.

Generally however, people carry knives to make themselves "feel in control" When this person uses a knife, its usually out of defense - maybe they have a reason to be afraid -like they didn't pay their debts etc. This person has never been in a knife fight before.

Then there are the desperate ones that want money (usually for drugs) these dudes don't want to kill anyone either. They are more likely to want to scare someone and end up in that slashing motion.

there are not a lot of hardcore knife fighters out there - most are dead or they have learned their lessons and now respect the knife and their opponent.

If we relate them to animals, even in the animal world there is still some sense of dignity. there are not many cases where the killer will go on stabbing the dead body (a small percentage of the over all stabbings in this Country)

If they are scared (first knife fight or knife attack) they slash - they don't want to kill and even if they do, they muster all their might and go for the strike - what they think will be the be all - end all strike but then, if they are fighting with an experienced opponent, they quickly realize that this situation is not going to be as easy as they anticipated. Now they are into a fight and the defender realties that he could be killed so now anything goes to save his ass or the asses of his loved ones. This is a worst scenario for the attacker to be in because even an untrained defender will now fight for his life.

In this case, if they loose the weapon, it means death for the attacker.

knives are a lot easier to get then guns and most want be thugs know that guns mean death - knives mean, "don't [censored] with me"

the untrained "I'm gonna kill yu" (with the knife) attacker is uslaly pretty easy to spot and much easier to read. You know exactly what hes going to do and you can see the trajectories eg overhead, underhand, straight, slash etc. so they are the most predictable and easiest to deal with (with some training)


a large part of my training was knife defense / offense - trained 7 years with former trainer of the Russian Special Forces who were renouned for their knife work - still, I respect the knife even if it is being held by a 15 year old boy and I realsie that even a professional WILL BE CUT in a knife fight. Its a pshychology you have to follow inorder to survive

I dont care about looking good like Steven Segal in a movie. I only care about survival.

best, M/
_________________________
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#196443 - 11/08/05 05:06 PM Re: Knife to the throat from the back. [Re: RangerG]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
WOW - Tough one.
I have practiced with this and other weapons for about 10 of my 30 years with the arts. It is amazing just what a flick of the wrist can do with a weapon such as a knife.
If someone has gotten as far as - a knife to your neck from behind and you have not already got your hand on that wrist or hand, there is just about nothing you can do. The best you can expect is to deflect the first cut to somewhere away from your neck.
If you do manage to get control of the blade hand then some of the suggestions offered by (h2whoa) will work. You will still most likely get cut but there is then a possability of getting the upper hand.
I recall that when we did this practice it was amazing how ruthless we became, just like the last reply from (Fattts14) suggested.

I also believe that a practiced MAist would not be easy to get into the position you are suggesting. Our reflexes would not allow it unless they came from nowhere.


Edited by Diga (11/08/05 05:08 PM)

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#196444 - 11/08/05 07:57 PM Re: Knife to the throat from the back. [Re: Diga]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
it's interesting - i hear so many variations in perspective on knife defenses, yet i don't think i've heard a single story from anyone i know who has had to utilize one in the real world. the first half of fattts's post really hit a sour note with me. i agree with it fundamentally but the whole "YOU WILL DIE!!!" attitude seems to undermine what knife defense is all about - saving yourself. i don't believe for a second that if someone pulls a knife on you that the best thing to do is to try to disarm them (run you fool!), but there is no reason to not train for it. i get alot of crap from the longtime bjjers at my school (i'm a short term myself) about the knife/gun defenses we do in krav. it seems ridiculous to me that people look me in the eye and tell me i'm wasting my time "learning how to dodge bullets". that's not what this is about. even if i do get killed by some knife weilding maniac someday, i am not going out without a fight and i am definitely not getting caught with my proverbial pants down.
honestly, i hope in the long run that knife defense training IS a waste of time. here's to never finding out!


Edited by ShikataGaNai (11/08/05 07:58 PM)

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#196445 - 11/09/05 08:06 PM Re: Knife to the throat from the back. [Re: Diga]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

If someone has gotten as far as - a knife to your neck from behind and you have not already got your hand on that wrist or hand, there is just about nothing you can do.




I would respectfuly disagree. I practice knife disarms on a regular basis. My family members have rubber knives and love to pull them on me on occasion, when I least expect it. Ever have your SO pull a Cold Steel rubber Tanto on you in the shower? I regularly practice the knife to the throat from behind..it is the one posiblility that scares the heck outa me and I want my response to be instinctual. I have practiced gun disarms against real guns...not just the rubber ones. I am never ever satisfied that I am 100% proficient.

Would I survive a knife to the throat from behind? I like to think I at least have a 50/50 chance, and that is better than no chance at all.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#196446 - 11/09/05 09:28 PM Re: Knife to the throat from the back. [Re: RangerG]
sprinter64 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/08/05
Posts: 4
Loc: PA
Hmmmmm... this has always been a toughe for me. A kid will always come up behind me and puts his finger to my throat. I was thinking that you could use your shoulder as a buffer and turn away from the knife then go into a strike or armbar ect. But then i tried it and he got me anyways... but maybe if you elbow and turn at the same time your back or shoulder would absorb the blow... I don't mind hurting my shoulder in comparison to my throat.
_________________________
Zanshin-state of readines for battle encompassed by an indomitable will not to lose

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#196447 - 11/10/05 01:39 AM Re: Knife to the throat from the back. [Re: RangerG]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
We too have spent time working with this scenario.
First let me say the position I think this thread is about is - The attacker is behind you with the knife cutting edge at your throat and his body is pressed against your back, most likely his other hand is holding you too , eather by your wrist or around your chest, or grabbing your shirt.

From this position anything you do to grab at the knife hand or turn or anything will cut your own throat just from your movement.
If you do manage to grab at his knife holding hand all it takes is a flick of his wrist and your juggler is cut. The harder you try to move the deeper the cut.
This is a very tough situation.

As I said before - It would be very hard for someone to get me in that position. Just one inch away from my throat and I have a 50-50 chance. Even if he does get the blade to my throat - if I manage to get hold of that hand at the same time - I would give myself a 20-80 chance but I have practiced with wood knives, swords,canes,bo,& jo for years.

Even if it is a poor situation to be in, it is great practice to figure out your best method to escape and control the weapon.

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#196448 - 11/12/05 09:02 PM Re: Knife to the throat from the back. [Re: Diga]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Chainmail?
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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