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#193340 - 10/12/05 03:15 AM Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment
sushil_yadav Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 6
Dear Group Members,

I want to share an article with you. This is about the link between Mind and Social / Environmental-Issues. The article is directly related to Zen, Meditation, Concentration, states of Consciousness and Awareness and would be of interest to members of FightingArts forum. The fast-paced, consumerist lifestyle of Industrial Society is causing exponential rise in psychological problems - besides destroying the Environment. The article explains why it is so difficult to control the Mind in today's fast society where attention-spans are down to nanoseconds, microseconds and milliseconds. Make things , Buy things , Sell things - this is not the purpose of life. All issues are interlinked. Our Minds can never be spiritual or peaceful if we destroy Nature.

Thank you,
Sushil Yadav


[ My background is given in the first letter ( letter No. 1 ) under the
topic " Correspondence with neuroscientists " on the website :
www.netshooter.com/emotion ]



MAIN ARTICLE & EXPERIMENT

Please note : The article has been written in short sentences rather than paragraph-form because it is about subjective experience / emotion/ reduction of thought.

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment.

Subject : In a fast society slow emotions become extinct.
Subject : A thinking mind cannot feel.
Subject : Scientific/ Industrial/ Financial thinking destroys the planet.
Subject : Environment can never be saved as long as cities exist.




Emotion is what we experience during gaps in our thinking.

If there are no gaps there is no emotion.

Today people are thinking all the time and are mistaking thought (words/ language) for emotion.




When society switches-over from physical work (agriculture) to mental work (scientific/ industrial/ financial/ fast visuals/ fast words ) the speed of thinking keeps on accelerating and the gaps between thinking go on decreasing.

There comes a time when there are almost no gaps.

People become incapable of experiencing/ tolerating gaps.

Emotion ends.

Man becomes machine.





A society that speeds up mentally experiences every mental slowing-down as Depression / Anxiety.

A ( travelling )society that speeds up physically experiences every physical slowing-down as Depression / Anxiety.

A society that entertains itself daily experiences every non-entertaining moment as Depression / Anxiety.





FAST VISUALS /WORDS MAKE SLOW EMOTIONS EXTINCT.

SCIENTIFIC /INDUSTRIAL /FINANCIAL THINKING DESTROYS EMOTIONAL CIRCUITS.




A FAST (LARGE) SOCIETY CANNOT FEEL PAIN / REMORSE / EMPATHY.

A FAST (LARGE) SOCIETY WILL ALWAYS BE CRUEL TO ANIMALS/ TREES/ AIR/
WATER/ LAND AND TO ITSELF.



I am trying to get the following experiment conducted in a psychophysiology/ bio-chemistry laboratory.


There is a link between visual / verbal speed ( in perception, memory,
imagery ) and the bio-chemical state of the brain and the body.

Emotion can intensify / sustain only when visual and verbal processing
associated with the emotion slows down ( stops / freezes ).

The degree of difficulty of an emotion depends upon the degree of
freezing (of visuals and words ) required to intensify and sustain that
particular emotion.


Experiment:

Subjects (preferably actors specialising in tragedy / tragic roles )
will be asked to watch a silent video film showing any of the
following:-

(1) Human suffering.
(2) Animal suffering.
(3) Suffering ( Destruction ) of Air / Water / Land / Trees.

Subjects will be asked to intensify and sustain the subjective feeling of pain/ grief for the sufferer.

The chemical changes associated with the emotion in the body(blood) would be measured by appropriate methods.

The silent video film will be shown at different speeds :
(1) 125% of actual speed.
(2) Actual/real speed.
(3) 75% of actual speed.
(4) 50% of actual speed.
(5) 25% of actual speed.


Results :

(1) Intensity of emotion increases with the decrease in visual speed.
(2) Intensity of emotion is maximum when visual speed is minimum (25%
of actual speed)

(3) The amount of chemical change associated with the emotion in the
body(blood) will be found to increase with the decrease in visual speed.

(4) The chemical change is maximum when visual speed is minimum.
(5) The amount of chemical change will increase with the decrease in
breathing rate. Breathing becomes so slow and non-rhythmic that it stops
for some time at the inhalation/ exhalation stages.

The above co-relations will be valid for all subjects -even for those who cannot feel pain/ grief. Such subjects will experience emotion associated with boredom/ discomfort/ restlessness/ irritability/ uneasiness. The chemicals released will be different but the co-relation between visual speed and amount of chemical will be same( the breathing rates will be different/ fast).
All subjects will experience some kind of emotion.

[If scientists can discover 4000 different chemicals in cigarette-smoke then they can certainly detect the few chemicals released in blood when we experience higher-level emotions like pain, empathy, compassion, remorse etc… ]


In the 2nd stage of experiment we shall replace the silent video film with a Narrator ( Audio only ) and repeat the procedure thereby establishing the link between intensity of emotion and verbal speed. The narrator will slow down verbal speed by-- speaking slowly, stretching words, repetition of words/ sentences & making use of
pause/ silence between words.

Please note:
(1) A THINKING MIND CANNOT INTENSIFY / SUSTAIN ANY EMOTION.
While this statement is generally true for all emotions, it is
particularly true for all painful emotions.

(2) In a society in which visual ( verbal ) speed and breathing- rates
are fast , pain / remorse / empathy cannot be experienced. It is
impossible.



PROOF.
Proof of the link between pain and slow visuals / words :-

In the last century man has made thousands of movies / films on various
themes / subjects. Whenever pain / tragedy is shown in any film the
visuals ( scenes ) and words ( dialogues ) are always slowed down. In
many films tragedy is shown in slow motion. At the most intense moment
of pain the films almost become static / stationary.

Tragedy-films provide direct proof / evidence of the link between pain
and slowness.

Pain can intensify / sustain only when visual ( and verbal ) speed slows
down( stops/ freezes).


CHANGE IN VISUAL SPEED OVER THE YEARS


One thousand years ago visuals would change only when man physically
moved himself to a new place or when other people ( animals / birds )
and objects ( clouds / water ) physically moved themselves before him.

Today man sits in front of TV / Computer and watches the rapidly
changing visuals / audio.

He sits in a vehicle ( car / train / bus ) and as it moves he watches
the rapidly changing visuals.

He turns the pages of a book / newspaper / magazine and sees many
visuals / text in a short span.


CHANGE IN VERBAL SPEED OVER THE YEARS

In ancient times verbal processing was “live” in nature—ie it happened when people actually spoke.
Today there is non-stop verbal processing inside the mind through print and electronic media ( newspapers, books, magazines, radio, television, computer etc…) as a result of which the verbal content & speed has increased thousands of times.


The speed of visuals ( and words ) has increased so much during the last
one hundred years that today the human brain has become incapable of
focussing on slow visuals /words through perception, memory, imagery.

If we cannot focus on slow visuals / words we cannot experience emotions
associated with slow visuals /words.





Before the advent of Industrial Revolution Man's thinking was primarily
limited to :

(a) visual processing ( slow visuals )
(b) verbal / language processing ( slow words )

Today there are many kinds of fast thinking :

(1) visual processing ( fast visuals )
(2) verbal / language processing ( fast words )
(3) Scientific / Technical thinking ( fast )
(4) Industrial thinking ( fast )
(5) Business thinking ( fast )

(3), (4) & (5) ARE ASSOCIATED WITH NUMBERS / SYMBOLS / EQUATIONS /
GRAPHS /CIRCUITS / DIAGRAMS / MONEY / ACCOUNTING etc…

As long as the mind is doing this kind of thinking it cannot feel any
emotion - not an iota of emotion.

In a fast society slow emotions become extinct.
In a thinking ( scientific / industrial ) society emotion itself becomes extinct.

EMOTION IS WHAT REMAINS IN THE MIND WHEN VISUAL /VERBAL PROCESSING SLOWS
DOWN (STOPS/ FREEZES )



There are certain categories of people who feel more emotion (subjective experience ) than others.

If we attempt to understand why (and how ) they feel more emotion we can learn a lot about emotion.

Writers, poets, actors, painters ( and other artists )

WRITERS
Writers do verbal ( and associated visual) processing whole day- every day.
They do slow verbal ( and associated visual) processing every day.
(A novel that we read in 2 hours might have taken 2 years to write. This is also the reason why the reader can never feel the intensity & duration of emotion experienced by the writer )

POETS
Poets do verbal ( and associated visual ) processing whole day- every day.
There is more emotion in poetry than in prose.
This happens because there are very few words ( and associated visuals ) in poetry than in any other kind of writing.
There is a very high degree of freezing / slowing down of visuals & words in poetry.

ACTORS
Actors do verbal ( and associated visual ) processing whole day- every day. During shooting / rehearsal they repeat the dialogues ( words ) again and again ( the associated visuals / scenes also get repeated along with the dialogues )

PAINTERS
Painters do visual ( and associated verbal ) processing whole day- every day.
They do extremely slow visual processing - The visual on the canvas changes only when the painter adds to what already exists on the canvas.


There are some important points to be noted :

All these people do visual & verbal processing - whole day - every day.
They do slow visual & verbal processing.
They do not do scientific / industrial / business processing whole day - every day.

Most of the city people doing mental work either do this kind of mental processing which is associated with NUMBERS / SYMBOLS/ Equations / Graphs / CIRCUITS / DIAGRAMS / MONEY / ACCOUNTING etc… or they do fast visual ( verbal ) processing whole day - every day.

This kind of thinking ( processing ) has come into existence only during the last 200 years and has destroyed our emotional ability ( circuits ).






SELF-ASSESSMENT OF ( SUBJECTIVE ) INTENSITY OF EMOTION IS ALMOST ALWAYS
WRONG.

Suppose the maximum intensity(and duration) of a particular emotion that
can be experienced by any human being is 100 units.

Let us suppose the maximum intensity(and duration) of that particular emotion ever
experienced by two people A & B in their entire life is :
A - 100units
B - 20 units

Now suppose A & B are made subjects on a particular day and are asked
to feel that particular emotion under experimental conditions ( or
outside the laboratory ) and the intensity &duration they actually experience is
:

A - 90 units
B - 18 units

If A & B are then asked to indicate the intensity &duration of emotion on a scale
of 0 -10 their response is likely to be ;

A - 9
B - 9

Who is right and who is wrong ?
A is right.
B is wrong - B is wrong by a wide margin - B has experienced an
intensity(and duration) of 18 units out of a maximum of 100 units and his correct /
actual score should be 1.8

Self- assessment ( self rating ) can be accurate only if people have
the capacity to experience the highest intensity &duration ( units ) of the
particular emotion under study.



Because of physical work and slow visual/verbal processing in small(slow)agriculture based societies of the past, the mind used to experience a state of emotion all the time. If we read one thousand-year-old literature we will not come across the term "boredom" -the concept of boredom did not exist in slow societies. There were long gaps between different visuals and between words/ sentences -and people had the ability to experience/ tolerate the gaps -it was normal for them.

Emotion can intensify / sustain only when visual / verbal processing slows down ( stops / freezes ). In an Industrial (thinking) society people experience very little emotion because of fast ( visual / verbal / scientific / industrial / business ) thinking

Suppose the maximum intensity and duration of a particular emotion ( for most people ) in a fast society has reduced to 5 units ( from 100 units that people used to experience in earlier /slower societies ).

If such people experience 4 units of emotion they will give themselves a
rating /score of 8 on a scale of 0-10 whereas their actual score should
be 0.4

IN A FAST SOCIETY SLOW EMOTIONS BECOME EXTINCT.





IQ Vs EQ


IQ always has an element of change in it – IQ is about trying to make/ discover/ invent something new all the time.
Change is an inherent feature of IQ.
IQ is also about thinking more in less time—it involves speeding up of mind. Someone who does more mathematics in less time is considered more intelligent in mathematics. IQ is about change and speed.

EQ is about sustainment of the same feeling/experience over a period of time. When we experience any higher-level emotion for 10 minutes we experience the same feeling( subjective experience) over and over again for 10 minutes.
The( same) feeling can sustain only if there is Repetition.
EQ involves Repetition—Constancy—Sameness.

IQ and EQ are contradictory.
IQ and EQ are opposites.
IQ and EQ are inversely proportional.




(1) A thinking species destroys the planet.
(2) Animals lived on earth for billions of years (in very large numbers)
without destroying nature.
(3) They did not destroy nature because their thinking / activity was
limited to searching for food for one time only.
(4) Man has existed on earth in large numbers for only a few thousand
years / a few hundred years.
(5) Within this short period Man has destroyed the environment.
(6) This destruction took place because of Man's thinking.
(7) When man thinks he makes things.
(8) When he makes things he kills animals / trees / air / water / land.
( Nothing can be made without killing these five elements of nature ).

(9) A thinking species destroys the planet.






Intelligence Is A Curse.


This planet is on the verge of total destruction.

The cause of destruction is – overactivity.
[Out of millions of species in this world the human-species is the only one that has indulged in overactivity]

The cause of overactivity is – Intelligence.
[The environment would never have got destroyed if Man had been only as intelligent as animals]

Intelligence is the biggest cause/ source of destruction in this world.

[In fact Intelligence is the only cause of destruction in this world other than natural causes]




MENTAL WORK IS INJURIOUS TO THE MIND AND PLANET.

There is no higher purpose behind work.

People do not work because they want to work.
People work because they cannot stop working.

People cannot stop physical activity and mental activity (simultaneously) for even 2 minutes.

For most people it is a choice between physical and mental work.
The switch-over from physical work to mental work is disastrous for the planet.




Man can do the same physical work every day.
Man cannot do the same mental work every day.

When man used to do physical work ( farming and related activities ) he could do the same repetitive work day after day- generation after generation.

After the Industrial Revolution when man switched-over to mental work he
began a never ending process of making new machines / things / products--
a process which can only end with the complete destruction of environment ( planet ).


The nature of mental work is such that man has to do new mental work every day- in fact he has to do new mental work every moment- Man cannot repeat in the next moment the mental work that he has already done in the previous moment.


A mathematician cannot solve the same problem of mathematics every day- once he has solved it he will be forced to take up a new( unsolved) problem. Even when he is solving one particular problem he has to move from one step to another - there is a continuous change involved -- there is no constancy at any stage.

An engineer cannot design the same machine again and again –once he has made a machine he will try to make changes/ design a new one.

A writer cannot write the same article every day- he will be forced to write something new every day/ every moment (This is also the reason behind endless discussions/ debates/ arguments).





Discussions, Debates and Arguments.


Let us examine how much discussion we are collectively having in Industrial Society every day.



Millions of pages in print – newspapers / books / magazines.
Millions of web-pages on internet every day.

Now add to this all the conversation (discussion) we are having through radio / television / telephone and several other media every day.

And add to this all the discussion we are having through face-to-face interaction.



The volume of discussion per individual in one week is greater than the total discussion someone living in pre-industrial society would have in his entire life.


There is too much discussion in modern society.
Discussion is not solving our problems – discussion itself has become a problem – a gigantic problem.



A society that does mental work will discuss itself to destruction [extinction]

A society that does mental work will argue itself to destruction [extinction]

A society that does mental work will debate itself to destruction [extinction]



A society that does mental work can never stop discussions / debates / arguments – it is impossible.
It will discuss / debate / argue till the last moment of it’s existence.




Discussions / Debates / Arguments – these are creations of a society that has switched-over from physical work to mental work.

Discussions / Debates / Arguments – these are diseases of a society that has switched-over from physical work to mental work.



Discussions / debates / arguments can end only in agriculture-based societies that do physical work.



We cannot do physical-work and mental-work simultaneously.

There is an inverse relationship between physical-work and mental-work.
If one is high [more] the other has got to be low [less]

If we want to do physical work we have to reduce mental activity by the same proportion.
If we want to do mental work we have to reduce physical activity by the same proportion.


There is very little discussion / debate / argument in societies that do physical work - ie, agriculture-based societies - And this is the reason why they are millions of times saner than industrial societies.







Change is an inherent feature of mental work.

Since change is an inherent feature of mental work - a society that does mental work can never be at peace with itself – it is impossible.

A society that does mental work will always be restless.

Only those societies that do physical work [agriculture and related activities] can find contentment and peace.





AS LONG AS CITIES EXIST WE CAN NEITHER SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT NOR THE MIND.

To save the [ remaining ] environment from destruction man will have to
return back to physical work [ smaller communities ].

To save the mind from mental diseases man will have to return back to
physical work [ smaller communities ].








Criminality and Abnormality.



Industrial Society has collectively killed billions of Animals and Trees [ Remember -plant and animal species developed over a period of millions of years]

It has also killed most of Water and Air [ Please note - polluting Water and Air is equivalent to killing Water and Air ]

The soil was not fertile when the earth was created. It became fertile - very slowly - over a period of millions of years. And look what man has done - He has covered millions and millions of hectares of land with cement and concrete. All the land that has been covered with cement and concrete has been killed.


Man has stockpiled thousands of tonnes of highly radioactive nuclear material and nuclear waste which is going to remain highly radioactive and carcinogenic for the next thousands of years - and which has already leaked into the environment hundreds of times.



What could be more criminal than this.
What could be more abnormal than this.



Lawyers and Judges are trying to catch a few criminals.
They don’t realize the entire Industrial Society is criminal.


Psychologists and Psychiatrists are trying to classify a few people as abnormal.
They don’t realize the entire Industrial Society is abnormal.





Industrial Society is collectively making millions of tonnes of weapons and explosives [of all kinds] every year – and then it wonders why there is so much violence in this world.

Big Mystery.

If you make millions of tonnes of weapons and explosives on earth they are going to be used on earth – they are not going to be used on Mars.





There was a time when Man knew nothing about the number of species and
millions of species existed.
Today Man knows the names of millions of species and nothing is left of
the species.




After destroying millions of highly-developed species on earth Man is today searching for a few molecules of life in outer-space.

If a few microbes, a few molecules of methane / water are found on Mars - it becomes the newspaper headline.

They call it progress.





The following is about to come true.

Nature can exist

(1) before man.
(2) after man.
(3) not with man.


Environment can be saved only if we stop production of most [ more than
99% ] of the consumer goods we are making today.

ENVIRONMENT CANNOT BE SAVED BY RECYCLING

THE ATTEMPT OF AN INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY TO SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT BY RECYCLING IS LIKE SHOOTING SOMEONE
10,000 TIMES AND THEN TRYING TO SAVE HIM BY TAKING OUT ONE BULLET.




Time is running out for this planet.



Yours Sincerely,
Sushil Yadav


Please note :

Fast emotions = emotions associated with fast visuals/fast words/fast breathing/fast heart-rate.
Slow emotions = emotions associated with slow visuals/slow words/slow breathing/slow heart-rate.
Rate of thinking = number of visuals/words processed per minute.
Gaps between thinking = gaps between visuals/ words/ sentences.



I am seeking help from volunteers in spreading this message far and wide.

Top
#193341 - 10/12/05 08:02 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
To add to your interesting post Sashil, in HH Dalai Lama's book, 'Ancient Wisdom, Modern World', he discusses this topic. He mentions that although the poorer developing countries suffer physical diseases like typhoid, malaria, diphtheria, the more affluent countries in the West suffer mental disease like anxiety, depression and insomnia etc.

Today in the capitalist society we live in we depend on material things to bring us happiness and yet we live in a generally very unhappy environment. Such dependancy on material possessions leads some to crime, some parents rely on presents and gifts to win their childs love and in turn that child relates material possesions as being a sign that they are being loved. So when they are refused a toy or gift, they see that as being refused love and the cycle continues.

I think this indeed is an issue we need to address.
_________________________
Chanters

Top
#193342 - 10/12/05 12:06 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: Chanters]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
I have read this in a variety of Buddhist articles: poor countries more spiritually happy and suffer diseases like typhoid while 'modern' wealthy nations are spiritually deprived and have 'modern' diseases like depression.

To that I reply: bunk. Poor nations, and poor people, suffer the same psychological maladies (depression, etc.)...it is just that the priority is to survive; addressing depression, alienation, loneliness, etc. is a luxury. I don't believe that capitalist, or industrialized nations are more unhappy...we simply have the luxury and wealth available to percieve and address these issues.

I'm not going to get cynical here, and talk about the 'selling' of a way of thought in industrialized nations...but I am a little suspicious about folks telling me they have 'the way' to happiness...and it involves some kind of fee and buys tax-exempt land in the USA.

Top
#193343 - 10/12/05 07:49 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Typical teenage anarchist claptrap. Whining about the problem but not offering any solutions.

Quote:

Most of the city people doing mental work either do this kind of mental processing which is associated with NUMBERS / SYMBOLS/ Equations / Graphs / CIRCUITS / DIAGRAMS / MONEY / ACCOUNTING etc… or they do fast visual ( verbal ) processing whole day - every day.

This kind of thinking ( processing ) has come into existence only during the last 200 years and has destroyed our emotional ability ( circuits ).




Ridiculous. All humans societies that have a language have abstract thinking. It has existed for far more than 200 years.

Quote:

MENTAL WORK IS INJURIOUS TO THE MIND AND PLANET.

There is no higher purpose behind work.

People do not work because they want to work.
People work because they cannot stop working.

People cannot stop physical activity and mental activity (simultaneously) for even 2 minutes.

For most people it is a choice between physical and mental work.
The switch-over from physical work to mental work is disastrous for the planet




I'll let this bit of anarchist idiocy stand by itself.

Quote:

A society that does mental work will discuss itself to destruction [extinction]

A society that does mental work will argue itself to destruction [extinction]

A society that does mental work will debate itself to destruction [extinction]




ABSOLUTELY. PLEASE STOP THINKING IMMEDIATELY. I'm glad someone finally posted this on a world wide internet forum for everyone to .... think about.

Quote:

There is very little discussion / debate / argument in societies that do physical work - ie, agriculture-based societies - And this is the reason why they are millions of times saner than industrial societies.




Right. Please give proof of this.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#193344 - 10/12/05 10:06 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
rideonlythelabel Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1242
Loc: st-hubert quebec canada
I'll let pass the completely unfounded arguments that you try to pass as obvious truth because there is simply too many of them. Actually that's pretty much all there is in your article. I'll let those pass and simply concentrate on a few points.

Quote:

After destroying millions of highly-developed species on earth




Millions? Oh reeeally? Source please?

I just have this one question about extinct animals; who cares? If the dodo bird or any other now extinct animals still existed today, what difference would it make? None.

Quote:

The silent video film will be shown at different speeds :
(1) 125% of actual speed.
(2) Actual/real speed.
(3) 75% of actual speed.
(4) 50% of actual speed.
(5) 25% of actual speed.


Results :

(1) Intensity of emotion increases with the decrease in visual speed.
(2) Intensity of emotion is maximum when visual speed is minimum (25%
of actual speed)

(3) The amount of chemical change associated with the emotion in the
body(blood) will be found to increase with the decrease in visual speed.

(4) The chemical change is maximum when visual speed is minimum.
(5) The amount of chemical change will increase with the decrease in
breathing rate. Breathing becomes so slow and non-rhythmic that it stops
for some time at the inhalation/ exhalation stages.

The above co-relations will be valid for all subjects -even for those who cannot feel pain/ grief. Such subjects will experience emotion associated with boredom/ discomfort/ restlessness/ irritability/ uneasiness. The chemicals released will be different but the co-relation between visual speed and amount of chemical will be same( the breathing rates will be different/ fast).
All subjects will experience some kind of emotion.




Interesting. Where was that study published? Who made it? Who was it sponsored by? Methodology?

Quote:

Industrial Society is collectively making millions of tonnes of weapons and explosives [of all kinds] every year – and then it wonders why there is so much violence in this world.




Oh sure. Weapons are the cause of violence, and not the other way around. *rolls eyes*

Quote:

Suppose the maximum intensity(and duration) of a particular emotion that
can be experienced by any human being is 100 units.

Let us suppose the maximum intensity(and duration) of that particular emotion ever
experienced by two people A & B in their entire life is :
A - 100units
B - 20 units

Now suppose A & B are made subjects on a particular day and are asked
to feel that particular emotion under experimental conditions ( or
outside the laboratory ) and the intensity &duration they actually experience is
:

A - 90 units
B - 18 units




I'm sorry, but that's just plain stupid. You're quantifying emotion, and saying that there is an universal measure for emotion that applies to every human being, while stating that we should stop thinking rationally, and let emotion guide our actions. Quantifying emotion is pretty much as rational as you can get.

no 2; You claim that the max intensity of an emotion for any human being is 100 "units". But then you claim that the max intensity subject B ever felt is 20. If the max intensity B ever felt is 20, then 100 is not the max for any human being!

A lot more of your arguments didn't make any sense but I'm tired of pointing it out.

Oh and next time you want to emphase something in an article, don't put it in caps, it will only p!ss people off.

Also stop referring to water and air as living beings. They're not. They're inanimate objects. There is no inherant balance in nature. Animals do not live in harmony with the environment, they simply don't have the means to do as much damage as we do. Gaïa/mother nature does not exist. Disney lied to you. Sorry about that.

Another quick point; do you realize that even if we did ruin the planet so badly that we drove ourselves to extinction, it wouldn't change a damn thing? Maybe a new species would replace us, maybe intelligent, maybe not, or maybe the Earth would stay a lifeless clump of rock till the Sun collapses, but one thing for sure; no one would (or could) care.

Kudos for trying, but your article is a long shot from convincing anyone.
_________________________
patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.

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#193345 - 10/12/05 11:41 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: rideonlythelabel]
Foolsgold Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 1635
Loc: South Lyon, MI, USA
Wow, the post killed my hope for humanity...and the replies brought my hope back to life.

Thanks for taking that one on, guys. 'Nuff said.
_________________________
Soy stupido, pero soy guapo!

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#193346 - 10/13/05 03:24 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: MattJ]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Give the guy a break! He simply posted an article he found. He hasn't said whether he agrees with it or his thoughts on it.

I think most of the points you, Harlan, Rideonthelabel and Foolsgold are completely valid but you come across as being personally threatened.

Chill out after all we are in the the meditation forum!
_________________________
Chanters

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#193347 - 10/13/05 08:10 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: Chanters]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
I think I was actually being nice, as I opted to not address his (?) article at all, and what came across as solicitation:

"The research has been done at an individual level by Sushil Yadav who has proposed certain co-relations and experiments.

The following pages describe the link / connection between Emotional circuits and Visual / Verbal circuits of the brain.

The entire discussion is essentially about Neural circuits for slowness (freezing of thought). Since slowness cannot be understood by speeding up you are requested to kindly read slowly. Please do not hurry / skip pages in order to maintain continuity of thought.

I am seeking help from volunteers in circulating the ideas presented in these web pages among psychologists, Neuroscientists, social/environmental activists across the world. Kindly spread the message as far and wide as possible."

If he wants to put out an academic article, he should expect 'peer' reviews.


Edited by harlan (10/13/05 08:28 AM)

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#193348 - 10/13/05 09:26 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: Chanters]
sushil_yadav Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 6
Chanters - Thanks for your post. You are right about your views on materialism and lack of emotion.

The article is mine and there is a labour of 20 years behind it.




The planet is getting destroyed moment by moment but there are some people who just don’t seem to notice it. They are so much focussed on material existence and living at the physical level that they can’t see [feel] the suffering.


This is a forum for Zen and Meditation and I want to tell these people - If you don’t have Compassion for Nature, Environment and all animals you are millions of light years away from Zen and Meditation.


sushil

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#193349 - 10/13/05 09:32 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Thank you for caring.

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#193350 - 10/13/05 09:44 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: sushil_yadav]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
One thing that comes to mind is the Amish. They live a simple, frugal, and somewhat austere live in small closenit farming communities. The pace of their lives would be considered mind numbingly slow to the average person. Their community is homogeneous and supportive. That being stated their percentages of of people in the community experienceing depression is equal to or greater than in most cases with their modern neighbors. The Amish have a great respect and love for animals. Almost to a person the Amish agree, animals taste great.

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#193351 - 10/13/05 10:06 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: harlan]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
That'll teach me to scan through instead of reading the article thoroughly!
_________________________
Chanters

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#193352 - 10/13/05 10:10 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
While I appreciate your attempts, I conmpletely disagree with all of your assumptions (yes, they are assumptions until you do get those tests done). While they may have occasional validity to a few random individuals, making your statements as a truth for the whole of society shows a gross misunderstanding of the science you wish to have prove you theories.

I don't understand why you would want actors to participate in your experiment on suffering. Actors act, they do not feel these emotions genuinely. How do you expect to get proper readings from people who are false(acting) from the very beginning?

Quote:

[If scientists can discover 4000 different chemicals in cigarette-smoke then they can certainly detect the few chemicals released in blood when we experience higher-level emotions like pain, empathy, compassion, remorse etc… ]



I find it only slightly amusing that you don't even know how this experiment of yours will be measured.

I don't have the time to go through the rest of your post, but the few sentences I have read are all very, very biased and you are doing nothing but stating theory as fact with no basis of support. How much of your 20 years have been spent reading studies by others? I see no references or quotes of others' materials.

Here's a reference for you:
http://www.humboldt1.com/~cr2/emotion.htm
"A Cultural-Psychological Analysis of Emotions"
Carl Ratner

As for your idea that thinking destroys emotion (mind and environment) and your generalizations about society, I am deeply offended.



How's that for thinking and emotion?

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#193353 - 10/13/05 10:39 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: JoelM]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
The fact that the test's haven't been done is IMVHO not the biggest problem, the big problem is that the conclusions drawn aren't logical.

Then again; if you fight against intelligence, why should you try to use it?

Practise what you preach, neh?

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#193354 - 10/13/05 08:29 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: JoelM]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by JoelM -

Quote:

As for your idea that thinking destroys emotion (mind and environment) and your generalizations about society, I am deeply offended.



How's that for thinking and emotion?




LMAO!!

Good point, Joel.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#193355 - 10/13/05 11:32 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
rideonlythelabel Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1242
Loc: st-hubert quebec canada
Quote:

The planet is getting destroyed moment by moment but there are some people who just don’t seem to notice it. They are so much focussed on material existence and living at the physical level that they can’t see [feel] the suffering.




I agree with you with only one of your conclusions; that to save the environment would be a good thing. And I disagree on why it would be a good idea to save it. The only reason why I think we should do it is that I care about the humans in the future generations.

I don't believe, though, in the concept of necessity, especially when it comes to the survival of a species. Nothing is necessary; even swimming when you're drowning. Even if you died today, the world wouldn't stop. Even if the entire human species was wiped out tomorrow, the solar system wouldn't stop. Even if the entire universe was annihilated, then what? Nothing, that's what.

We don't HAVE to save the environment, but maybe we should. If you care about all those not-born-yet humans.


Quote:

The article is mine and there is a labour of 20 years behind it.




That's simply not true. Maybe you're trying to make us feel bad about disagreeing with your illogical article, but there is not 20 years behind that. No way.

We didn't like (didn't believe in) your article and told you so in a polite way. If you didn't want to hear our honest opinions, you shouldn't have posted it here.
_________________________
patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.

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#193356 - 10/13/05 11:59 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: rideonlythelabel]
sushil_yadav Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 6
MattJ , Rideonlythelabel , harlan , JoelM.



It is Science that has brought us to this state of affairs. Who needs more science and more scientific proof.


Since you are posting in Zen and Meditation forum I would like to tell you a few things. People have been practicing Zen and Meditation for thousands of years. They were not so stupid as to ask for proof – scientific proof in your language. When they practiced Zen and Meditation they experienced the effects and benefits of it in their Mind and Body – and that was enough for them. They did not wait for Science to arrive and give scientific proof regarding Zen and Meditation. Their experience was their proof.

And that is exactly how I have gained knowledge about Mind and Emotions. I don’t need any scientific proof. The experiments I have suggested are for people like you who just won’t understand or accept anything without proof. If some people think my correlations are wrong they are free to design experiments to prove they are wrong.


Now come to the family. How do people accept their father as their father. Where is the proof – the so called scientific proof. The scientific proof comes from DNA testing. How many people have got the DNA test conducted.



People like you don’t realize the absurdity and stupidity behind science and scientific proof.



sushil

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#193357 - 10/14/05 12:20 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
rideonlythelabel Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1242
Loc: st-hubert quebec canada
This post makes a lot more sense. It's true that our belief in science is somewhat of a faith, and that the validity of science itself can be discussed. However, that is only partially relevant to the discussion since not all our arguments are based on science and scientific proof. A majority of our counter-arguments are based in logic. These two notions are somewhat different.

I'll only explain this notion if you ask me to.


Quote:

And that is exactly how I have gained knowledge about Mind and Emotions.




Are you implying that we have no knowledge of "Mind and Emotions"? You know, we're humans too.

Quote:

Now come to the family. How do people accept their father as their father. Where is the proof – the so called scientific proof. The scientific proof comes from DNA testing. How many people have got the DNA test conducted.





Ridiculous. I am perfectly aware that the belief that my father is indeed my biological father is based partially in faith. If my father is not my father, I take my hat off to him and/or my mother. It takes some guts, and a whole lot of stupidity to play a role like that for 18 years.

Quote:

People like you don’t realize the absurdity and stupidity behind science and scientific proof.




I'm sorry, I was not aware that you we're such an evolved mind despites all your talk about not thinking. Looks like you grasp concepts we're not smart enough to grasp. It has been an honor to be patronized by you, sushil.
_________________________
patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.

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#193358 - 10/14/05 01:49 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

People like you don’t realize the absurdity and stupidity behind science and scientific proof.





What?! I only got through part of his mumbo-jumbo and subjective experimenting...and he posts something stupid like this.

Thank you scientists wherever you are or have been for making medicine and nice cures for people I know to survive a little longer.

Dude, Ride is so right and you are so slipping down the terrible slope of egocentric prosyltizing.

-B

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#193359 - 10/14/05 02:12 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

People have been practicing Zen and Meditation for thousands of years.



People have been practicing science for even longer. Astronomy, Mathematics, Geology, Biology, Agriculture, Chemistry, Physics, Medicine, Meteorology, Hydrology, the list goes on. These sciences were studied by even the most "primitive" of men and societies.

Do you honestly believe that even the Zen and meditation students from the beginning followed blindly and asked for no proof of what is to come? While they may not have recieved any evidence or even asked the question out loud, but they most certainly asked themselves. Sometimes the only way to recieve the proof is to reach that state of Zen, Nirvana, Oneness, or whatever they wanted to call it. The proof is in the experience, as you say.

You say this is how you gained your knowledge, I say you are quite deluded. I know nothing of your experiences, only what so-called proofs they provided for you. But I do know that your claims are gross overgeneralizations of people, their minds and emotions, and society as a whole. Industrial society is quite a broad spectrum and covers most, if not all, of the world. To break down the world's mental "problems" into one group of sentences and sentence fragments is a great injustice and just plain wrong.

Did you read or even glimpse at the link I provided you? I hope you did, but doubt it.

Quote:

People like you don’t realize the absurdity and stupidity behind science and scientific proof.



People like you don't realize the absurdity and stupidity behind your arguements and notions on humans.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#193360 - 10/14/05 08:55 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: JoelM]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
There is no argueing with a 'true believer' of any paradigm...including the scientific method.

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#193361 - 10/14/05 12:40 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Harlan,

Tsk Tsk....The scientific method is not a belief though folk believe in it. It is essentially nuetral and relies on evaluation, logic, and empirical evidence. If the evidence doesn't corroborate the idea, then I have to reinvent the theory. If the evidence shows I am wrong, then I admit I am wrong. Science.

Belief, on the other hand, will be there, regardless of the evidence.

-B

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#193362 - 10/14/05 12:42 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: butterfly]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Exactly my point.

Quote:

Tsk Tsk....The scientific method is not a belief though folk believe in it.



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#193363 - 10/14/05 12:46 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: harlan]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
How can that be your point?

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#193364 - 10/14/05 12:50 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: JoelM]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA

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#193365 - 10/14/05 01:00 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: harlan]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Don't have the time now, but I'll try to look at it later.

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#193366 - 10/14/05 01:25 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Harlan,

I think you misunderstand me in this regard. The actual scientific method of logically setting up double blind tests to examine an outcome of an experiment. To examine things logically is what I think is good, and objective.

The article that you have listed, I think, does not devalue the scientific method. What it instead gives is an idea upon how the cumulutive knowledge obtained by science is put forth. And how a consensus in obtained relating to this data. These paradigm shifts.

I do not think, however, it dismisses as a belief, the method of obtaining this knowledge.

-B

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#193367 - 10/14/05 01:43 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: butterfly]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
I seem to be unclear today. Yes. I agree with you, only pointing to material for people to think about.

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#193368 - 10/14/05 02:12 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: harlan]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Unclear...naw! Your fine. It's Friday. And that, I do believe in...is a good thing!

-B

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#193369 - 10/14/05 03:12 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: butterfly]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
"It's Friday. And that, I do believe in...is a good thing!"

That, if any, is an absolute fact!

I'm quite enjoying this new guy, he has very strong opinions about what's right and wrong, and he says that's Zen and us idiots don't know s**t, he's probably right about the last part

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#193370 - 10/14/05 03:18 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: nenipp]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
'Scuse me, but didn't a Zen master once inform a student that 'zen is sh*t'?

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#193371 - 10/14/05 03:37 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: butterfly]
UofM Shorin Ryu Offline
Resident Forum Breakdancer

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 981
Quote:

Harlan,

I think you misunderstand me in this regard. The actual scientific method of logically setting up double blind tests to examine an outcome of an experiment. To examine things logically is what I think is good, and objective.

The article that you have listed, I think, does not devalue the scientific method. What it instead gives is an idea upon how the cumulutive knowledge obtained by science is put forth. And how a consensus in obtained relating to this data. These paradigm shifts.

I do not think, however, it dismisses as a belief, the method of obtaining this knowledge.

-B




That's just one use. Aviodance of sample bias, retesting your hypotesis with the same variables to see if it repeats, removing any and all extraneous variables: these are also included in the scientific method.

It's just a guideline on how scientists should conduct research in a scientific manner. It just addresses the issue of stupid people claiming things for fact without solid proof.

Hence the great differences and importance between cause and correlation.

I don't know where the idea that it's a belief came from, but it's more like a rulebook than anything else.
_________________________
Alea iacta est ~ Gauis Julius Caesar Ne quis nimis ~ Solon Nuts to cancer ~ Sanchin31

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#193372 - 10/14/05 03:49 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: UofM Shorin Ryu]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
U of M,

Quote:

Hence the great differences and importance between cause and correlation.

I don't know where the idea that it's a belief came from, but it's more like a rulebook than anything else.





Herein, we agree wholeheartedly.

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#193373 - 10/14/05 07:25 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: butterfly]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Well...I know what I will be researching next!

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#193374 - 10/15/05 10:44 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: harlan]
Foolsgold Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 1635
Loc: South Lyon, MI, USA
Quote:

Exactly my point.

Quote:

Tsk Tsk....The scientific method is not a belief though folk believe in it.







Were you referring to the people who believe it without understanding it?
_________________________
Soy stupido, pero soy guapo!

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#193375 - 10/15/05 10:48 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: butterfly]
Foolsgold Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 1635
Loc: South Lyon, MI, USA
Quote:

Belief, on the other hand, will be there, regardless of the evidence.




True, but I still pity anyone who tries to hold a belief against evidence.

By the way, I forgot to give the original poster kudos for having the guts to stand up for himself. He may not be much of a thinker, but his emotions are quite impressive (I say this in both a sarcastic and serious way ).
_________________________
Soy stupido, pero soy guapo!

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#193376 - 10/19/05 05:22 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: Foolsgold]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Foolsgold,

No...I believe in the scientific method simply because, to date, I don't think that anyone has developed a better tool to examine the real world. The scientific method is a device, a tool, and only as good as the user and the data provided to that tool.

One can give all sorts of subjective, anecdotal evidence to suggest this or that might be real...think of aliens and ghosts. Yet, no empirical...no verifiable...no repeatable...evidence exists to prove these things. So could they exist? I suppose. Do they exist? Probably not...no one's proved them yet.

Our best tool is our brain and logic. But I also recognize that I enjoy a good sunset on a personal level. That what is happening is light from the sun at the angle I am veiwing it is being refracted in the air by particulates so longer wavelength radiation seeps through...and I get a red, darker sky.

Does my enjoyment get messed up by a little knowledge? I don't know...I don't think about it....but I don't believe that pixies are throwing crap in the air as the sun goes around the earth so I get a cool thing to look at.

In a world where this method is abandoned, then we would be lost to people suing for hexes and the evil eye. If there was a cholera epidemic....then supernatural agencies are involved...and we don't need to ask, what is the cause? Or search for the source of the cause.

-B

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#193377 - 10/19/05 06:39 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: Foolsgold]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Foolsgold,

Quote:

True, but I still pity anyone who tries to hold a belief against evidence.




I agree with your sentiment, but not in its entirety. The reason being is that there is a whole range of unknowables and things that we must take on "faith" as we live our every day lives. And I am not talking about religious experience here.

What we know resides in the pervue of scientists. How we know what we know remains with the philosophers.

There are people I have met on this forum. And there are people I have communicated with on this forum. Many here that I have come to know despite no face to face contact, and yet I trust several of them. Why is that? Have they given me any reason to trust or to not trust them? The answer is no.

And I don't know exactly why, but I could, if I were willing to, list off people I would trust with a million dollars and a statement of my most embarassing moments.

Belief is a way to get past what we don't have enough data for. Trust is a belief, friendship is a belief, love is a belief. I have no evidence to share about these things, but I feel them and they are true for me.

Exploring the natural world and figuring out how the molecules in oursevles form is something that needs and requires science. The love I have for my wife...I know because I feel it and I offer no excuse or reason for it...except that I do have it. However, this is personal unto me and I do not impose this on others...so it is subjective and I recognize it as such. But I also see it as real and tangible for myself, despite evidence, or the lack thereof. And the funny thing is, I can explain this emotion, and you know what I am talking about.

-B



-B

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#193378 - 10/19/05 10:58 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: butterfly]
Foolsgold Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 1635
Loc: South Lyon, MI, USA
B- I think you misunderstand my statement. I pity those who try to hold a belief against evidence.

"Pity" in the less condescending sense.

"Against" as in not "without evidence". And I agree with religion not being included in this group.

Perhaps you didn't know but I have a ridiculously unfounded idealistic streak .
_________________________
Soy stupido, pero soy guapo!

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#193379 - 10/19/05 11:21 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: Foolsgold]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Ok, maybe I did misunderstand you.

Idealism, if nothing else, I can appreciate. I'll offer a cyber hug!

-B

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#193380 - 11/28/05 10:59 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: butterfly]
sushil_yadav Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 6
Dear friends - I would like to add some more points to the topic.



Regarding Industrialization there is an important point to be noted. Modern Industrial Society has existed for 100 years - 200 years - 300 years. When we compare this period with the total duration for which human society has existed on earth this period is so short - so small that it almost does'nt exist. It is almost zero.

Material things don't bring peace and happiness. Today billions of people have got things which even Kings did not have in the past. Car, computer, television, fridge, telephone - no King ever had these things. But people are still restless and unhappy. Our Minds cannot be peaceful when attention-spans are down to nanoseconds, microseconds and milliseconds.

Consumerist-Lifestyle is just not sustainable. If we do not immediately return to living a very simple and frugal life then very soon there will be no human life on earth.




Think Positive.

Psychologists say -- Think Positive.
Politicians say – Think Positive.
Economists say – Think Positive.
Scientists say – Think Positive.
Everyone says – Think Positive.




Arctic ice is melting – Glaciers are melting – Rivers are drying up.
Think Positive.

Fish population in Oceans is down to 1/3 of what it was 100 years ago.
Think Positive.

Pollution levels are going sky-high and valley-deep.
Think Positive.

There used to be millions of members in most species of Animals and Birds. Now they are down to thousands and hundreds.
Think Positive.

Weather is getting more and more irregular and unpredictable.
Think Positive.



Thinking positive is the height of insanity.
Thinking positive is the height of abnormality.


This is a world that has become completely incapable of feeling Pain, Compassion, Remorse and Guilt.
The planet is getting destroyed moment by moment – and people are thinking positive.



Very soon there will be 1 Animal and 1 Tree left in this world – and people will still be thinking positive.

They will be holding Seminars, Conferences and Global-Summits to save the Environment.






There is an important point which the human-species needs to understand. People think they can save the Environment by doing something.


We can never save the environment by doing something.

It is overactivity that has destroyed environment in the first place.

Human-species is the only one out of millions of species that has indulged in overactivity on this planet [ And for this very reason the human species is going to exist on earth for the least amount of time]

And it is not Mild Overactivity – It is Excessive Overactivity – Exponential Overactivity.

We cannot save the environment by doing something.

We can only save it by doing less of what we have been doing - much less of what we have been doing.

If we want to save environment we will have to reduce human activity [overactivity] by 99%.

sushil_yadav

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#193381 - 11/28/05 11:25 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: sushil_yadav]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

Very soon there will be 1 Animal and 1 Tree left in this world




Perhaps that one animal will find himself under that one tree.

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#193382 - 11/28/05 11:28 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: butterfly]
Foolsgold Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 1635
Loc: South Lyon, MI, USA
Sorry butterfly, I never returned that hug.

*Accepts and returns cyber hug, perhaps enjoys it a bit too much...*
_________________________
Soy stupido, pero soy guapo!

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#193383 - 11/29/05 12:18 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: Foolsgold]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
please don't be offended if I just continue hugging my trees.

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#193384 - 11/29/05 07:03 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: Foolsgold]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
and speaking of hugs:
Leo, did you have anything to do with the development of this?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051128/sc_nm/singapore_hug_dc

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#193385 - 11/29/05 07:20 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Thinking positive helps to keep the weight of the world off of our shoulders as it seems to be on yours.
Think positive.
Diseases that were not curable are being cured.
Think positive.
My hair is growing back.
Think positive.
My kids are healthy,happy,and they love me.
Think positive.
Slaves are free and people here are getting more rights than some countries have ever heard of.
Think positive.
Life is too short not to.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#193386 - 12/02/05 08:19 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: BrianS]
sushil_yadav Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 6

The Illogical Logic of Man.

A few birds have got infected with bird-flu and Man has started killing millions of birds.
They say birds are a threat to humans.


Sometime ago there was Mad Cow disease and Man started killing hundreds of thousands of cows.
They said cows are a threat to humans.



Ever since Man came into existence - millions of humans with infectious diseases have transferred such diseases to millions of other people - and will continue to infect millions more in future.
Such people are a threat to rest of the people.
Man should follow the same logic here and kill all infected people.




It is Man who has killed millions of people in Wars and other forms of Violence – and can kill millions more any time in future.
Man should follow the same logic here and kill all people.




It is the human species which is the greatest threat to humans and all other life on this planet - In fact the human species is the only species which is a threat to all life on Earth.

Man has decimated all Animal and Plant species – polluted the Sky and Oceans - and poisioned every square inch of earth.

In a mere 200 - 300 years Industrial Society has destroyed all that Nature laboriously created over a period of millions of years.



Humans pose the greatest threat to other humans.
Humans pose the greatest threat to all other life on earth.


The so-called Rational and Civilized Man should follow the same logic here - and destroy the entire human race.


[Please note : If you indulge in Factory Farming – If you torture the birds – confine millions of them in prison like conditions – depriving them of Sunlight and the freedom to walk and fly – you are creating an environment for the spread of virus and disease]






There was a time when Man used to say –


I work in order to feed my family.
I work in order to put Food on the Table.



Today man is putting a lot more than Food on the Table.

Cars, Computers, ipods, Aeroplanes, Luxury Yatchs, Caribbean Vacations, Palatial Homes, Video Phones, Designer Clothes, Designer Drugs, Cosmetic Surgery …………… The list is endless.


Man is putting thousands of consumer goods and services on the Table.
There is too much weight on the Table.
And the Table has begun to creak



The more you put on your table the more you take out from the mouths of Animals and Birds.

The more you put on your table the more you kill Animals and Trees.

The more you put on your table the more you kill Water, Air and Land.

The more you put on your table the more you kill Mountains and Valleys.

The more you put on your table the more you kill the Sky and Oceans - the Rivers and Lakes.





There are so many things on the Table that one can barely see the Food.


We need just a few things to live.
And we are making thousands of things.

Billions of people are engaged in making, buying and selling of thousands of consumer goods.



Destroy Shopping Culture.
Destroy Industrial Society.


Go back to Simple Living.
Go back to putting just Food on the Table.


sushil_yadav




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#193387 - 12/02/05 08:20 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Go for it.

"Go back to Simple Living.
Go back to putting just Food on the Table."


Edited by harlan (12/02/05 08:36 AM)

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#193388 - 12/02/05 09:31 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I agree with almost everything you wrote (except the mass murder of humans part). And the solutions to the problems you present are very much tied to human over-population.

Thats why I say....'On to Mars!'

"Following the light of the sun, we left the Old World."
- Christopher Columbus


think about it: We either have to die in large numbers or move. Moving will buy the human race time to wisen-up.

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#193389 - 12/02/05 10:43 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

A few birds have got infected with bird-flu and Man has started killing millions of birds.
They say birds are a threat to humans.


Sometime ago there was Mad Cow disease and Man started killing hundreds of thousands of cows.
They said cows are a threat to humans.



Quote:

It is Man who has killed millions of people in Wars and other forms of Violence – and can kill millions more any time in future.
Man should follow the same logic here and kill all people.




I'm sorry, you are using false logic there. We do not kill all birds because of bird flu. We do not kill all cows because of mad cow. Therefore we should not kill all humans.


Quote:

[Please note : If you indulge in Factory Farming – If you torture the birds – confine millions of them in prison like conditions – depriving them of Sunlight and the freedom to walk and fly – you are creating an environment for the spread of virus and disease]



But they taste soooo goooooood!!
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#193390 - 12/02/05 12:43 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by sushil_yadav -

Quote:

Destroy Shopping Culture.
Destroy Industrial Society.


Go back to Simple Living.
Go back to putting just Food on the Table.




Fine, OK. You first. Still waiting to hear HOW you wish to effect all these changes.......
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#193391 - 12/02/05 12:56 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: MattJ]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

Quote by sushil_yadav -

Quote:

Destroy Shopping Culture.
Destroy Industrial Society.


Go back to Simple Living.
Go back to putting just Food on the Table.




Fine, OK. You first. Still waiting to hear HOW you wish to effect all these changes.......





Electro Magnetic Bomb - 14,000 miles of Copper Wire, and a lightning bolt.
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#193392 - 12/02/05 01:06 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
You know what? I'm not giving up indoor plumbing or modern medicine. Simple living....sucks.

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#193393 - 12/02/05 01:12 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

You know what? I'm not giving up indoor plumbing or modern medicine. Simple living....sucks.





No, primitive living sucks. simple living doesn't mean you have to go to a hole to do your civic "duty"...

At least I would not think so, why sacrifice the things that are beneficial, just because they came about at the same time as the things that stole us from the heart of living. There are complications, and then there are innovations. Don't cut off the nose to spite the face.
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#193394 - 12/02/05 01:16 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: phoenixsflame]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
For anyone interested in practical aspects making different choices in a consumer society you might consider looking at Mennonite communities.
One book, "Living More With Less" can serve as a good introduction.

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#193395 - 12/02/05 01:20 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: phoenixsflame]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Did I miss something? Does he not advocate a return to non-industrial living? Does he 'really' advocate simple living (which I think can be relative to the person), or primitive?

I think he can go first. Turn off the computer.

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#193396 - 12/02/05 01:26 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: harlan]
phoenixsflame Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 402
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Quote:

Did I miss something? Does he not advocate a return to non-industrial living? Does he 'really' advocate simple living (which I think can be relative to the person), or primitive?

I think he can go first. Turn off the computer.




I've no clue. Personally I think returning to the dark ages would although be interesting, would be counter productive. We'd just reach this stage again and do the same thing, lol, lesson's are never learned *coughs - Babylon, coughs - Rome, coughs England, coughcoughcough*
_________________________
While everything changes, nothing is truly lost.

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#193397 - 12/02/05 01:27 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

I think he can go first. Turn off the computer.


great. more coca-cola nose-hosed on the keyboard. Too funny.

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#193398 - 12/04/05 05:26 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: JoelM]
LastGURU Offline
The one who knows
Member

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 148
Loc: Riga, Latvia
Quote:

Quote:

A few birds have got infected with bird-flu and Man has started killing millions of birds.
They say birds are a threat to humans.


Sometime ago there was Mad Cow disease and Man started killing hundreds of thousands of cows.
They said cows are a threat to humans.



Quote:

It is Man who has killed millions of people in Wars and other forms of Violence – and can kill millions more any time in future.
Man should follow the same logic here and kill all people.




I'm sorry, you are using false logic there. We do not kill all birds because of bird flu. We do not kill all cows because of mad cow. Therefore we should not kill all humans.



Actually, it is you who is using false logic here, as he reasoned killing only all infected people by people killing infected birds and cows. the second quote of your is telling something different.
_________________________
Choice is an illusion created between those with power and those without

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#193399 - 12/04/05 10:46 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: LastGURU]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
I don't understand, could you explain better, please?
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

Top
#193400 - 12/05/05 03:22 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:


The Illogical Logic of Man.

A few birds have got infected with bird-flu and Man has started killing millions of birds.
They say birds are a threat to humans.


Sometime ago there was Mad Cow disease and Man started killing hundreds of thousands of cows.
They said cows are a threat to humans.



Ever since Man came into existence - millions of humans with infectious diseases have transferred such diseases to millions of other people - and will continue to infect millions more in future.
Such people are a threat to rest of the people.
Man should follow the same logic here and kill all infected people.




It is Man who has killed millions of people in Wars and other forms of Violence – and can kill millions more any time in future.
Man should follow the same logic here and kill all people.




It is the human species which is the greatest threat to humans and all other life on this planet - In fact the human species is the only species which is a threat to all life on Earth.

Man has decimated all Animal and Plant species – polluted the Sky and Oceans - and poisioned every square inch of earth.

In a mere 200 - 300 years Industrial Society has destroyed all that Nature laboriously created over a period of millions of years.



Humans pose the greatest threat to other humans.
Humans pose the greatest threat to all other life on earth.


The so-called Rational and Civilized Man should follow the same logic here - and destroy the entire human race.


[Please note : If you indulge in Factory Farming – If you torture the birds – confine millions of them in prison like conditions – depriving them of Sunlight and the freedom to walk and fly – you are creating an environment for the spread of virus and disease]






There was a time when Man used to say –


I work in order to feed my family.
I work in order to put Food on the Table.



Today man is putting a lot more than Food on the Table.

Cars, Computers, ipods, Aeroplanes, Luxury Yatchs, Caribbean Vacations, Palatial Homes, Video Phones, Designer Clothes, Designer Drugs, Cosmetic Surgery …………… The list is endless.


Man is putting thousands of consumer goods and services on the Table.
There is too much weight on the Table.
And the Table has begun to creak



The more you put on your table the more you take out from the mouths of Animals and Birds.

The more you put on your table the more you kill Animals and Trees.

The more you put on your table the more you kill Water, Air and Land.

The more you put on your table the more you kill Mountains and Valleys.

The more you put on your table the more you kill the Sky and Oceans - the Rivers and Lakes.





There are so many things on the Table that one can barely see the Food.


We need just a few things to live.
And we are making thousands of things.

Billions of people are engaged in making, buying and selling of thousands of consumer goods.



Destroy Shopping Culture.
Destroy Industrial Society.


Go back to Simple Living.
Go back to putting just Food on the Table.


sushil_yadav








Think Positive

What are you really trying to say here? The world is not perfect? DUH! You sound like some kind of wack-job.

You clearly put the needs of plants and animals above mans! That's illogical noonsense!!

I'm sure you are not so different from what you seem to despise...?

Sheesh!!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#193401 - 12/05/05 05:07 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: JoelM]
LastGURU Offline
The one who knows
Member

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 148
Loc: Riga, Latvia
Quote:

I don't understand, could you explain better, please?



OK, first I will say that I am not stating neither that I do, nor that I do not agree with him, I am just clarifying the logic. He said:
Quote:

A few birds have got infected with bird-flu and Man has started killing millions of birds.
They say birds are a threat to humans.

Sometime ago there was Mad Cow disease and Man started killing hundreds of thousands of cows.
They said cows are a threat to humans.

Ever since Man came into existence - millions of humans with infectious diseases have transferred such diseases to millions of other people - and will continue to infect millions more in future.
Such people are a threat to rest of the people.
Man should follow the same logic here and kill all infected people.



That is saying that following the logic of killing birds and cows that can potentially carry terminal illness, and thus are dangerous to other people, people should kill all those people that can be dangerous to other people. He did not say to kill all the people, like you say he did here:
Quote:

We do not kill all birds because of bird flu. We do not kill all cows because of mad cow. Therefore we should not kill all humans.


_________________________
Choice is an illusion created between those with power and those without

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#193402 - 12/05/05 05:08 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: LastGURU]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Where do I sign up for the Jihad? Who do we kill first? Shall we start with people who have contagious diseases...or go straight to people that have different points of view, 'dangerous thoughts', that might undermine our own?

Or does he mean that this is happening now? This thread is too difficult to follow. I think I am going to move on.

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#193403 - 12/05/05 05:28 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: LastGURU]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by lastGURU -

Quote:

that can potentially carry terminal illness,




By your logic, JoelM's logic is not faulty. All humans could potentially harbor infectious diseases - requiring them to be killed.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#193404 - 12/05/05 05:48 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: MattJ]
LastGURU Offline
The one who knows
Member

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 148
Loc: Riga, Latvia
Quote:

Quote by lastGURU -

Quote:

that can potentially carry terminal illness,




By your logic, JoelM's logic is not faulty. All humans could potentially harbor infectious diseases - requiring them to be killed.






no, the word "potentially" has some more potential in it than I wanted to... ignore that word
_________________________
Choice is an illusion created between those with power and those without

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#193405 - 12/05/05 06:18 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: LastGURU]
Foolsgold Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/02/04
Posts: 1635
Loc: South Lyon, MI, USA
Kool-aid, anyone?
_________________________
Soy stupido, pero soy guapo!

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#193406 - 12/06/05 04:15 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: Foolsgold]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
After this thread, I think I'll be drinking soda out of nice, easily recycled aluminum cans, thanks.

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#193407 - 12/06/05 07:40 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
but according to the thread...soda is part of the problem.


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#193408 - 12/06/05 08:39 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: Ed_Morris]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Baby steps, Ed. Baby steps.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#193409 - 12/06/05 08:39 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Hmm, psychological problems and industrial society. Well, we've only had psychologists for less time we've had an industrial society. This suggests,a) we weren't ill until we had psychologists or it is only since we invented psychologists that we realised we were ill.

Granted, the earth is being destroyed, but what does it matter. nature will find an answer to the problem like she did when the great cosmic spielberg pulled a plug on the original cast of the original jurrassic park.

Interesting how a mentally working society will kill itself and then we always run back to the wisdom of earlier times and read ancient books by people who sat navel gazing in caves. How mental is that?

Archaeological evidence shows early man killed and wiped out a number of species themselves.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#193410 - 12/06/05 08:41 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: trevek]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

navel gazing




It's only 8:40 am, but you made my day.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#193411 - 12/06/05 09:18 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: trevek]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Granted, the earth is being destroyed, but what does it matter. nature will find an answer to the problem like she did when the great cosmic spielberg pulled a plug on the original cast of the original jurrassic park.




BEST. QUOTE. EVER!!!!!!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#193412 - 12/06/05 09:30 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: MattJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Gee guys, I'm flattered

I can't claim complete credit...

I'd like to thank my mental industrialised education in my industrialised society.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#193413 - 12/06/05 10:11 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: trevek]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
"Archaeological evidence shows early man killed and wiped out a number of species themselves."

...but only the big and/or dangerous ones. survival of the fitest baby. Although it would be interesting to have the Mastodon, Sabertooth and of course the 'Harlans ground sloth' back in action and looking for food.

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#193414 - 12/06/05 10:50 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: Ed_Morris]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Apparently they alos hunted big birds (where else have you seen one apart from Sesame Street) using heated stones, because the birds ate stones to help their digestion.
Not sure how they know this, but there it is...

Mammoths and Sloths still exist, I am certain. Every year my tax office send me a mammoth bill (funny, I keep telling them only ducks have bills) and then the sloths have a mammoth task clearing it up!
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#193415 - 12/22/05 04:36 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: trevek]
sushil_yadav Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 6


Lifestyle of Mass Destruction.

Destruction is an inherent feature of Development.

Progress = Destruction of Nature.
Development = Destruction of Nature.


We can have Sustainable Lifestyle.
We cannot have Sustainable Development.

Development can never be sustainable.
Sustainability and Development cannot exist together.





Development and Sustainability are opposites.
Development and Sustainability are contradictory.

Sustainable Living is associated with consuming less – being satisfied with a simple and frugal life.
Development is associated with never ending desires – always wanting more.


Sustainable lifestyle requires Constancy.
Sustainable lifestyle requires Sameness.
Sustainable lifestyle requires Repetition.


Development is associated with Change.
Development is associated with New.
Development is associated with Transience.


Industrial Societies can never be sustainable – When you make thousands of consumer goods you kill Nature - you kill Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land.

A Society that does mental work [city based] can never be sustainable - it will keep on making consumer goods - destroying the environment moment by moment.

Only agriculture-based societies that do physical work can be sustainable.



The term Sustainable Development is like the terms

Stationary Walk.
Silent Talk.
Wakeful Sleep.
Dark Sun
Gentle Torture.
Dry Rain.
Peaceful War.


sushil_yadav

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#193416 - 12/22/05 06:19 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
probably right, but they also make the computer you're writing on.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#193417 - 12/22/05 08:09 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: trevek]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Another driveby preaching of destruction and doom,get over it dude.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#193418 - 12/22/05 08:47 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
SUV (thats my new name for you since an SUV represents everything you speak against ).

SUV: Everything dies, so put on your non-biodegradable helmet and hope for the best. oh yeah and choose your leaders wisely.

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#193419 - 12/22/05 09:10 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: sushil_yadav]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
"Destruction is an inherent feature of Development."

That is a truism. Development is actually death. Even as you sit and breath and do nothing...you are integrated into this world and part of an organic system where life and death are one.

There is no avoidance...it is. And it was this way from the beginning.

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#193420 - 12/22/05 05:04 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: harlan]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Hasn't this thread crossed the line of being way too political yet...

OLDMAN!!!!

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#193421 - 12/22/05 06:34 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Political? My post?

I have read that 'to be human is be political'...in a broad sense. I think my comment is not even religious or spiritual...more like...philosophical. But if I have crossed some 'line'...please point out where so that I may become more aware.

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#193422 - 12/22/05 07:33 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Hasn't this thread crossed the line of being way too political yet...

OLDMAN!!!!





???????????????????????

Idiotic? Hell yes. Political? I'm not seeing it.

Quote:

Destruction is an inherent feature of Development.




Anyone else notice the irony of the person writing this on the internet - probably living in a "developed" nation?

Quote:

We cannot have Sustainable Development.




Maybe not, but we're looking at about a 5000 year run, so far. Not bad, eh?

Quote:

Sustainable Living is associated with consuming less – being satisfied with a simple and frugal life.
Development is associated with never ending desires – always wanting more.




Yes, it's terrible how people desire ways to eliminate back breaking labor, find better ways to communicate, treat terrible diseases......*rolls eyes*

Quote:

Sustainable lifestyle requires Constancy.
Sustainable lifestyle requires Sameness.
Sustainable lifestyle requires Repetition.




Wait.....what are you trying to say? I don't understand. This part is so confusing......

Quote:

Only agriculture-based societies that do physical work can be sustainable.




OK, I see your point there. Ag-based societies grow the things we eat and wear, furnish building materials, etc. But if you think that going back to horses and farms will solve the worlds problems, you are naive.

The Thames river in London was horribly polluted even in the pre-industrial ages, cleaned up with the modern sewer system. In America, the advent of the automobile was looked upon with wonder as a way to end the scourge of pollution from horse droppings.

You are making a gross generalization between development - which is not inherently evil, and rampant over-development, which is a very real problem.



_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#193423 - 12/23/05 03:17 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: harlan]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Harlan, my comment was not in regard to your post, but the entire thread. I feel that his comments and the beliefs he states are too political for this forum.

Matt, it is idiotic, and it is political in nature. This is something along the lines of "pit the left vs. the right" commentary. That's why for the most part I stayed out of it. Just seeing it pop back up again was a little too much.

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#193424 - 12/23/05 09:54 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: MattJ]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
"Idiotic? Hell yes. Political? I'm not seeing it"

Those two seem to really enjoy each other's company

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#193425 - 12/23/05 03:58 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: MattJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Agricultural communities are sustainable because someone won't let them have any advances!

Where are these halcyon communities? Can you promise and assure me they have never had any kind of war with their neighbours?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#193426 - 12/23/05 10:34 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: trevek]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
good point. Unfortunately, your question will never be addressed by the thread bearer.

'SUV' only involves his/her self with one-way communication: depositing his conscience on a forum and not engaging in interactive debate is a bit like hanging your trash on a highway billboard sign in order to remind people they are generating too much garbage.

SUV: Thank-you for reminding us...but not very helpful to the overall solution now is it? could you please kindly tell us when you expect to properly dispose your 'message'? have you invented a new kind of solar and smokeless incinerator? or perhaps come up with a way to de-populate the world so there is less demand for resources? Got a 'final solution' for us or will you just continue to whine via loudspeaker?

I think SUV needs to tell us how he/she is part of the solution and not part of the problem....if not, this thread needs to be put in the recycle bin.
IMO

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#193427 - 12/23/05 10:44 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: BrianS]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
I like that phrase: driveby.

This is one of those moderator calls: when is enough enough and a thread closed? It calls for an evaluation, a concensus that there is no more value to be gleaned from a thread. I know this poster bothers me, due to his behaviour (as noted by Ed), but is it any worse than the numerous threads that get derailed by trivial asides?

If anyone is noting: I second Ed's motion to close the thread. Or is it a third...since Bushi asked first?

Quote:

Another driveby preaching of destruction and doom,get over it dude.



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#193428 - 12/24/05 04:11 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: harlan]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
yeah, shut it down and maybe something new will develop! It seems unsustainable.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#193429 - 12/26/05 01:24 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: trevek]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Die thread,die!!!!!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#193430 - 12/26/05 04:27 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: BrianS]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
This thread is a vampire. It's an undead thing that is draining the intelligent life of this forum. Someone get the silver capped stake

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#193431 - 12/26/05 11:26 AM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
If you guys would shut up and stop posting here it would just sink to the bottom.

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#193432 - 12/26/05 12:05 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: JoelM]
LastGURU Offline
The one who knows
Member

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 148
Loc: Riga, Latvia
Quote:

If you guys would shut up and stop posting here it would just sink to the bottom.



no, it would not - the original author will surely post something again.
_________________________
Choice is an illusion created between those with power and those without

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#193433 - 12/26/05 12:18 PM Re: Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environme [Re: LastGURU]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
I meant besides him.

The past 5 posts were saying how the thread should be locked or just die out.

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