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#193157 - 04/13/09 04:51 PM Re: Hard knuckles [Re: Zach_Zinn]
SifuHax Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 84
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Why shouldn't this be a goal in martial arts? Why shouldn't I train my weapons to be stronger than my opponent's? It's very similar to lifting weights to bulk up. imo, It's more important to build bone and tendon strength over muscle. By adding more weight (bone and callous) to your knuckles, your fists becomes heavier, harder, and therefore a lot more susceptible to causing more damage.
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#193158 - 04/13/09 05:49 PM Re: Hard knuckles [Re: SifuHax]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

It's more important to build bone and tendon strength over muscle. By adding more weight (bone and callous) to your knuckles, your fists becomes heavier, harder, and therefore a lot more susceptible to causing more damage.




I do not agree. Having hard knuckles does not mean you have good punching mechanics, in any case. Bag work and sparring FTW.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#193159 - 04/13/09 06:37 PM Re: Hard knuckles [Re: jkdwarrior]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,
IMHO

ONE can permanently DAMAGE oneself without proper direction and post therapy
YOUTHS (not 'utes', 19 and under) DO NOT DO THIS YET!!!!
1.) If your school requires board breaking, some bodily striking areas NEED to be 'conditioned' well in advance (at least 1yr if OCD like me or 2 yrs min...e.g.-Any part of hand [I am going to explain...NO FINGER TIPS], ball of foot for snap kick, hope you've experienced MT cause 3 boards will break the instep lest you wear Bates 511, etc.) ...Many apologies to those who have broken 3 12x12 pine fresh cut w/ instep, you are beyond me, but who aint...

*** For those wondering, our school does not use spacers between boards nor padding striking surface. BB test req. successful breaking of 3 boards in four dir. (that's 12), Dan rank adds more and allows 2 = 3 on a freehanging speed break. Spacers and other "tricks" w/ boards/bricks or concrete amalgam make the break easier (e.g. leaving boards in hot trunk for a week or low oven...sigh...thats a potential good post...telling what makes a fake break..)***

2.) PROPER conditioning WILL result in excess bony deposition, my knuckles were kinda gross big, Master Dong said when he was Sandan in Shotokan His were as big as plums!!! thankfully if you dont use it you lose it- kinda..

**Med Study:(e.g. runners will have higher bone mass in femur, femoral neck/head and the bones of the hip. Women runners [who get enough Ca++ and vit D] have been proven in large cross section/age/race/time of the JAMA to be significantly less prone to osteoporosis)

PHYSIOLOGY a.) bony cortex under stress over a prolonged time in the same condition will "ask" the parathyroid to initiate osteogenesis and IF enough circulating Ca++ (yeah Phosphates too) is in blood stream the (the parathyroids "ask" their chemoreceptors and "command" the kidneys to be alert).

In his stern lecture on body conditioning the Late Grandmaster Ngo Dong (He had a PhD as well, guess it keeps you out till the kids are sleeping?)

3.) FINGER conditioning WAS OUT...(still have no idea how He knew as I was doing this at home several years after my 1st conditioning lecture and homework months prior to Brown belt)...a.)He said it was very dangerous to oneself in part due to the Acupuncture points and their connection to Cardiac Meridians...b.) Also, He needed to do these things to survive in Vietnam...in America, He continued, some condition is always a 'secret' weapon...but to go to excess was not needed..."I have very sharp fingers but cannot feel my wife when I touch her, you do not need to lose this"

4.) DONT mash your hands as hard as you can 'gainst any thing wont give or break...to start...OR EVER.
Start adding light stress to the selected striking surface, UHHHH bleeding is not a Technique Verifier (T.V.) but it will teach you when to stop and what is too much/Wk, if you listen to your body...(or demonstrates I.Q. degeneration and loss of learning behavior...language and thumbs left)

5.) Dont hit your shins w/ rattan (let me do it for you )...Shins/Forearms...a.) Find out what a soft "banana" tree looks like and start LIGHTLY kicking it to work from tibial protuberance down to near bottom tibia...Forearms low block to tree, bony side starting below olecranon and working whole forearm stopping before ulna protuberance/facet.

6.)no softer trees, sittin round watching TV? DONT smash the shins or forearms, use that rattan to rub up and down, apply as much pressure as endurable...

****POST training conditioning should be a separate post.

***After 22yrs why do I still do some of the weird list of parts I've pounded??
I LIKE IT...Its meditative for me...120 reverse punch, 20 at a time, switching boxing stance every 20, with a faster lighter front jab leading the rear hand (keeping good form) the THUDTHUD THUD becomes a rhythm like a heartbeat...Like being immersed in a Taiko drum session. fist knuckles, hammerfist, palm and palm heel, wrist, shins.
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#193160 - 04/13/09 06:58 PM Re: Hard knuckles [Re: SifuHax]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Why shouldn't this be a goal in martial arts? Why shouldn't I train my weapons to be stronger than my opponent's? It's very similar to lifting weights to bulk up. imo, It's more important to build bone and tendon strength over muscle. By adding more weight (bone and callous) to your knuckles, your fists becomes heavier, harder, and therefore a lot more susceptible to causing more damage.




Tendons are connective tissue that attach muscles to bones, you can't magically only work your tendons and not "muscle strength". Functional strength involves groups of muscle tendon units working together...especially for something like a punch.

Similarly, most forms of weight-bearing excercise, including slow stuff like Tai Chi, helps improve bone health.

Your fists don't become more capable of causing damage by being harder, good technique makes them more capable of causing damage, at best the hardening of the bone is supportive in that your knuckles will be somewhat less likely to be damaged, but the prime mover of how effetive your stirkes are should be your structure, not how hard your knuckles are.

The ideas a lot of people have about what this kind of conditioning does and does not do to your body are bunk, you can create a certain amount of bone density and scar tissue, but ultimately this kind of training is about technique, not "conditioning" imo.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/13/09 07:01 PM)

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#193161 - 04/13/09 07:37 PM Re: Hard knuckles [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
For me, this whole issure can be summed up in this one statement:

I would rather break my knuckles once in defending myself than break them over and over in years of training so that maybe they won't break in defending myself.

If you're a big board/ice/brick breaker and enjoy this type of training, by all means make sure your tools are properly prepared for said work. It's just not my thing. But, maybe that's because I got into MA later in life than some. It's a touchy subject. This kind of thing can cause permanent damage or not, depending on the teacher/student/techniques, etc. So, if you do wish to do this, make sure you are learning how to do it without inflicting permanent damage on yourself.

My 2
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#193162 - 04/13/09 09:15 PM Re: Hard knuckles [Re: Zach_Zinn]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi,

Zach Zinn, you have studied renewing the marrow and strengthening tendon/ligament, prob micro and macro cosmic orbits if so....I wish I had more time w/ Master Huang...sigh...and a Goju -Ryu background? cool

"ZZ" has hit it on the head , maybe these 2 points are key (Zach, if I've misinterpreted correct me)

1.) Good technique beats amped Physique. All the conditioning does is lessen injury if you hit the wall.
I agree that done well it is a great adjunct to technique improvement.

2.) What was not said, nor specifically implied (on a limb here), was

a.] F = m(a)2, mass is important but the mass of your FIST matters little as good technique (power issues from the ground and waist and chi, theres your mass) and when drilled to reaction then acceleration is squared

b.] Chi, the energy you lose OR strengthen and allow to flow is by far more powerful (Master Huang split my lip under the nose ON THE inside during push-hands (for messin with one of his students or to see my character, a second in time where I was lucky i jumped??? back, a second and it was as tho He had not moved)


***We choose to develop our Martial Spirit...It can involve making some body parts stronger, I do it and I like it.
***We can also choose to develop Martial Spirit via Qi Gong, and other paths, well heck do Both:)

Oh, yeah those big cool knuckles are one of the 'tells' I look for when 'sussen some hombre up a'fore I run

-Karl. Peace.
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#193163 - 04/16/09 07:25 AM Re: Hard knuckles [Re: karl314285]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Why would anyone want hard knuckles? Do you really get in that many fights? Seriously. Is it worth screwing your hand up over? I'll pass.

I mean, if you're a pro fighter, you're taping/wrapping your hands then wearing gloves. No need to "harden" the knuckles. If you're not a competitive fighter, my suggestion would be to focus on sparring and stay out of real fights.

Just my opinion.

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#193164 - 04/16/09 11:02 AM Re: Hard knuckles [Re: JKogas]
karl314285 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 326
Loc: The Matrix, Serif is Teacher
Hi, No fighty, no messeyed up hands either, section near end "HERE GOES" has a very debatable "personal Belief" as basis of starting my 20 odd yrs of breaking and choosing a few specific body parts to train for improved point of impact strikes and I believe a worthy read on a different WHY of such training which perhaps hasn't been mentioned or isn't widely considered (in which case I shouldn't a put it there, but who would believe me anyhoo, I talk too much)

I do stay out of fights...am very good at verbal diffusion or just walking away; and, as Master Dong used to say "just avoid situations or places where the chance of a fight is greater, or the 1st of the '5 R's' is RUN"

after 20yrs the only "messed up" thing about my hands are one fully repaired severed flexor tendon and the other an 80% return of 2 severed extensor tendons and some wrinkles I know weren't there before I started typing (there are some hardly noticeable callous discolorations on 1st two knuckles [the bone appears to have returned to near normal size till I make a fist], the palm heel and palm corner are a bit leathery but I garden and work on 2 and 4 stroke engines for fun or necessity, and as
An IMPORTANT refresher for those new to reading posts like this, because I follow a specific post pounding TREATMENT regime AS TAUGHT BY an EXPERIENCED MASTER under his supervision initially; the 100% Thumb Flexor tendon (FPL) didn't meet the makiwara or slap the bags till 5yrs post surg.; and, while palm strikes to the post or bag didn't erase the surg. scar, over 10ish years where I used the makiwara and the use packed base of my favorite duct taped Everlast, I still retain "Abnormal flexibility" as Dr. Powell noted comparing Lt and Rt thumbs. I attribute that to Master Dong's EXPERIENCED EDIFICATION on PROPER return of Blood, Lymph and Chi flow.

I generally advise students (when I was teaching, I prefer and feel more in place as a student) NOT to engage in such activities unless a belt test board break involves a striking surface which begs gradual toughening; yet, they still like the technique they picked as opposed to my safer alternate. However when I see a high kyu or newer dan rank using the tools of the dojo, I watch and offer guidance if desired.

I Truly just like the meditative repetition/ritual and I do like how my hands feel after all is over, I'm weird but everyone knows that

I also spent those years doing wrist strikes (tho I prefer our serpent forms over crane forms...not that that says anything bout me) with no ill effect. I freely admit my shins look a bit odd and scarred up...but I liked using shin blocks.

***it's like having both my beastly FNH extended pipe, 12g. pump w/ aimpoint red dot; and, belowa button push surefire attached where the pump/support hand can activate or strobe WITH the benefit of weekend tac training time (handgun, shotgun and dual use where one supports/augments the other condition dependent) w/ two of my Fav GPD at the empty Police Academy (now moved location, been a while). 'Babe' is generally holding (in Home) bird shot, 8 in the pipe w/ 4 rd stock holder totin OO buck and one slug in case...

In Case of what??? I dont hunt...animals.
I chose to spend time at the dojo late and weekends in a fairly ritualized 2.5 hr session (I started impact area treatment at dojo so some of that time frame just involved recovery) when school and work allowed and I didn't have a g'friend. It's what a B.A. in Philosophy gets a 22 y/o after graduation as career choice

HERE GOES,
*** this is ONLY my belief, what goes for one so to the other.
If I own 'Babe', train, practice at range and drill to retrieve her in the dark way fast and safely clear house by room, know longest shot and backstop, doing so with intent to 1st get visual ID in that way too bright light etc.

If I train for it well enough I probably will never have to need it

training a few body areas properly for an edge (and you get those knuckles 'sharp', they can and do create a focal impact area good for striking deep seated bodily PP with increased potential for striking a meridian point with "optimal outcome", it's not just about being able to... whatever others want from this. I knuckled a friends radial nerve no pad sparring, whole arm went limp, freaked him out then I spent time doing acupressure. A whole fist punch to the jaw/ear area may stun one and may dislocate jaw....yeah its precision striking, but I punch my sharp knuckle there I will dislocate that jaw.

If everyone reading posts like this only see "less likely to break my hand" or "crush his face in"...well I'm happy to keep 'em in mystery bout other uses, cause no one probably has read this far I'm OK pointing out whats on the other side if you are taught WHY you are doing it, not just How.

plus if none get what I just alluded to that's cool, I have a bit more edge... JKogas, I hope you read this far...I have a WHY that most may not ever have considered,pp,e.g. how often is a clear shot to the armpit...fair frequent, punch it it hurts, add a sharp focal area as striking surface an armpit shot is a dangerous thing...I was going to PP forum to bring up topic of deep seated PP and "Improvised, Expedient Field Tools", a beefy bony sharp knuckle is a 24/7 carry field tool, which ,since I have it, I'll probably never need to use it

Why be a Butcher when you can be a Surgeon.

-Karl. Peace. That kinda seem like casting a different light...giving a WHY is vital, realizing that most things in life have more than one WHY leads the diligent and curious to find some of them...
_________________________
do not try to spork the post, for that is impossible, only realize there is no post to spork

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#193165 - 04/17/09 07:24 AM Re: Hard knuckles [Re: jkdwarrior]
TenguRyu Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/21/07
Posts: 3

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#193166 - 04/18/09 11:05 AM Re: Hard knuckles [Re: jkdwarrior]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
If you use boxing like hand movement harden kuckles may nit be needed because you hands are most time tapped and gloved but if you use eastern Martial art strikes open and close you want sharpen your tools. Sparring in mitts its kinda hard see your advantage but barefisted sparring or real fights you will see and advantage. Combinations are still stressed but the results of the impact will feel and be different.

Note boxers hit really hard in gloves but are prone to break their wrist and hand hitting barefist because they hit with wrecless abandon which is good in gloves but not so good un-sharpened bare fisted. In the past some boxers use to soak their hands and do minir conditioning like the arm and elbow hitter Marciano, Frazier and the raging bull. In gloves when I bo0xed some said they could feel my knuckles while gloved. Of course some times I'd strike with the fore knuckles if they hit me pretty good with strong hands it didn't bother me but it did them. Not to say boxers don't have strong hands they do have you ever shook hands with a boxer. But they are use to havimg tapped and gloved hands and teh hot with wreckless abandon/throw their weight into their strikes.
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