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#192250 - 11/18/05 09:45 AM Re: JKD influenced by TKD? [Re: Taison]
mike_p Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 17
Taison, perhaps you would be interested in some facts about Bruce Lee. He was originally very impressed with gung fu, and wrote about how he felt (at the time) it was the supreme form of martial art, the forerunner of arts like jujitsu and karate. This is verified in his book "Chinese Gung Fu the Philosophical Art of Self Defense" as well as a thesis about gung fu he wrote during school in Seattle. It is available in current books and on-line, you can do some research on it. Bruce also spoke well of gung fu in his filmed interview/screen test for the Green Hornet show. According to Bruce Lee's first students (Jesse Glover, Ed Hart, Leroy Garcia, Skip Ellsworth, Taky Kimura, Jim Demile, and others) Bruce taught them forms and techniques from a variety of gung fu styles in addition to wing chun, although wing chun was his core art. They did these forms in photographed Seattle demonstrations in the early 1960s. He originally felt that forms held the key to gung fu mastery, but later completely changed his opinion about forms and classical gung fu. If you haven't seen the 1964 film of Bruce doing a form with high kicks at the Long Beach tournament (prior to creation of jkd), then you don't know what you are talking about. Bruce did high gung fu kicks, but originally didn't think they were effective for combat. According to his his first student and assistant instructor Jesse Glover, Bruce really developed his side kick after seeing Nishiyama's kick control at Long Beach. Bruce had bad ankles but eventually learned to hold his side kick extended and apply it with explosive force. According to Norris and Rhee they did share opinions about high kicks with Bruce, I am sure he considered their opinions. He later developed effective high kicks. He still stated to his students that ultimately, hands were superior to kicks in an actual fight. Students like Dan Inosanto have stated that the kicks Bruce developed later were applied differently than in tae kwon do. Also different than most wing chun side kicks because of his ankle problems. Most wing chun practitioners do a sort of 45 degree side kick (exhibited in the dummy form.) Leung Ting wing tsun practitioners sometimes exhibit a karate/tae kwon do style side kick. If you would like some accurate information about Lee, you should go to his students. Jesse Glover wrote an excellent book entitled "Bruce Lee Between Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do" which is very helpful and discredits some of the misinformation about Bruce that goes around. Best wishes.

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#192251 - 11/18/05 12:55 PM Re: JKD influenced by TKD? [Re: Taison]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Taison, you display an impressive lack of knowledge about BL.

Quote:

I disagree. . . Firstly, BL was never impressed by Chinese Gong-fu, be it mainland or not. BL stated that kicking to the head, is like crouching down to punch the toes.




Never impressed with Chinese arts? That is interesting, as most of his "core arts" for JKD were in fact Chinese arts.

Quote:

Wrong. . do a sidekick, now. Did you have to learn it from someone? No. It's a natural thing BL just adopted to "stop-hit" oncoming opponents during their lunges. If he was to adopt it from someone, it would be Jhoon Rhee.




Supremor is correct. During my time as a full time instructor, I can verify that the sidekick is not a "natural" movement at all, and is one of the more difficult kicks for beginners to learn.

Quote:

Jeet Kune Do = No Form, so what's with the form?




Oy vey. I have also seen very old footage of Bruce Lee doing animal style forms on a screen test. Don't confuse his later rejection of forms with the idea that he never learned any.

Quote:

Was he? Then why did Norris and Rhee make such an effort to convince BL that high kicks were effective? I thought he started practicing them after he sparred with Rhee and Norris?




Again, there is video evidence of BL doing high kicks form before he met Chuck Norris or Jhoon Rhee. High kicks are well known in many Chinese styles.

While there may be some TKD influence, most of the kicking repetoire taught in JKD comes from either Savate or Muay Thai.
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#192252 - 11/19/05 09:05 AM Re: JKD influenced by TKD? [Re: MattJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Am I correct in my thought that BL originally studied the rudiments of Tai Chi? It would seem strange that a person who studied in form based training such as traditional WC, TC etc would dispense with them automatically when he started teaching (meaning he didn't).

Anyway, certain styles of TC also contain kicks, including a quite high crescent kick in some forms.
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#192253 - 11/19/05 04:23 PM Re: JKD influenced by TKD? [Re: trevek]
elmastero1 Offline
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Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 3
From my reading. Bruce Lee learned Tai Chi under his dad. He later went on to learn Wing Chun under Yip Man but his instruction in the art was mostly learned directly under his senior Wong Shun Leung. He also studied Northern kung fu styles from other people, which do have high/flashy type kicks.

I'm sure that Chuck Norris (Tang Soo Do) and Jhoon Rhee (Tae Kwon Do), both Korean trained martial artist also influenced Bruce Lee in training above the waist kicks. Many of which he showcased in his films.

Although, from a fighting standpoint Bruce Lee felt that kicks should be kept below the waist. He also stated that he desired to be able to kick to any target if he needed to. But since the subject of the topic is "JKD influenced by TKD". I would have to say no.

JKD's kicks, as taught by most OBLS' are still kept below the waist. They're not teaching jump spinning hook kicks in their classes, like in TKD. In JKD it's all about simplicity and non-telegraphic techniques. JKD kicks aren't even chambered like they are in Karate or TKD. So to state that TKD had an influence on JKD is incorrect. They may have had an influence on Bruce Lee learning a few more above the waist kicks that he didn't already have from Northern Kung Fu styles but they were primarily used for movie purposes and didn't influence his art of JKD.

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#192254 - 11/19/05 04:33 PM Re: JKD influenced by TKD? [Re: elmastero1]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
That is a very interesting and informative reply, thanks.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

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#192255 - 11/20/05 08:57 PM Re: JKD influenced by TKD? [Re: trevek]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Ok folks, my bad. . Sorry

Quote:

Taison, you display an impressive lack of knowledge about BL.




Damn I like that sentence.

Thanks for the info, though.

-Taison out


Edited by Taison (11/20/05 09:00 PM)
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#192256 - 12/19/05 04:38 AM Re: JKD influenced by TKD? [Re: elmastero1]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Apparently Lee also studied Savate according to Jesse Glover
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#192257 - 02/07/06 12:56 AM Re: JKD influenced by TKD? [Re: mike_p]
wonphi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/06/06
Posts: 10
and he studied tam tui. a chinese art that solely concentrates on kicking.
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#192258 - 02/07/06 02:17 AM Re: JKD influenced by TKD? [Re: wonphi]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Did he study formally under a qualified instructor or did he study it from a book he bought? I mean his library on MA and health books is legendary. Books that are no longer in print but written by some real experts back in the day.
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does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#192259 - 02/07/06 07:54 AM Re: JKD influenced by TKD? [Re: wonphi]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

and he studied tam tui. a chinese art that solely concentrates on kicking.




Wonphi -

Do you have any sources for that? I have never heard of that style.
_________________________
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