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#191506 - 10/31/05 03:21 PM
Re: Aikido and Hapkido
[Re: Subedei]
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Former Moderator
Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
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Quote:
Both stem from the same roots, that being Daito Ryu. Generally they're pretty similar. To the best of my knowledge there isn't anything in Aikido that isn't in Hapkido so you're going to get much broader training with Hapkido. The advantage in Aikido is getting to focus exclusively on throws, pressure points, locks, and evasion while ignoring all of Hapkido's striking.
I can sum up the difference very easily:
Some tries to punch you in the face, you deflect it and grab their wrist.
Now in Aikido you'd put them off balance, throw them to the ground and hold them there via some form of joint lock.
In Hapkido you'd palm heel them in the solar plexus, pull them off balance, throw them to the ground, hit them again, then hold them with the joint lock.
The difference is whether you want to hit them or not.
Well, sort of. While both arts share a common lineage and have many common techniques they are, as you noted, of a different "hue and texture".
Both also train a weapon (or two) and include weapon defenses. Most hapkido styles will also incorporate basic ground work.
Regarding your comparison of the two it might be sufficient to note that hapkido tends to "add" elements to the basic technique. Often that is a distracting blow before a joint lock is applied and strikes after a throw. In hapkido these tend to be the "whole" technqiue (trike/kick, lock or throw and then "finish").
Like anything else, who you train with and how you train produces people with different insights/understandings and skills.
Edited by KiDoHae (10/31/05 03:39 PM)
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#191507 - 10/31/05 05:34 PM
Re: Aikido and Hapkido
[Re: csinca]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
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Quote:
But do they focus an appropriate amount of time teaching atemi? If you can get an aikido sensei to admit that atemi is an important and integral part of the art, I have fouund that they still tend to gloss over actually teaching how to strike.
So which sensei are out there devoting 70% of their teaching time to atemi and 30% to technique?
Chris
Good points Chris.
Firstly, it is important to note that many of Ueshiba's students had come from other arts and many would have had a grasp of the fundamental mechanics involved in striking.
Secondly, "striking" is fundamentally core to aikido - I mean, what is uke doing when attacking?
Thirdly, "striking" isn't always necessarily the overt punch/hit/kick paradigm. If you understand the body mechanics involved, all aikido technique is primarily striking with the body or parts of the body, or even with the whole body.
If you look at katate-kokyu nage ura, the end movement in the throw is a jo-tsuki (thrust). Kote-gaeshi is a sword cut. Shiho-nage is a series of 4 sword cuts or strikes in the 4 cardinal directions.
It doesn't look like a strike, but the body mechanics involved are.
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#191508 - 10/31/05 05:42 PM
Re: Aikido and Hapkido
[Re: eyrie]
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Former Moderator
Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
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Eyrie, can you find a vid clip of anything you mentioned?
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#191509 - 10/31/05 06:14 PM
Re: Aikido and Hapkido
[Re: Chanters]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
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Quote:
Is that because in order to do the technique you first must take balance and striking is one way of doing so?
Hi Chanters, the short answer is not really. It idea is to take kuzushi on or before contact, by utilizing kokyu rokyu, which, in actuality, is a way of striking with the whole body.
If you focus on developing kokyu rokyu, there is no need to "strike" overtly.
Tan-jon breathing in hapkido is one way of developing this power. In most aikido schools, this practice is extended to kokyu-dosa-ho and other variations, such as, fune-kogi and sayu-undo.
If you understand kokyu-ho/tanjon ho heup bup, you will understand that "striking" is innate in aikido. To what percentage, that is quite subjective, and like KiDoHae has stated, it depends on who you're training with and learning from, and what they focus on teaching.
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#191510 - 10/31/05 06:33 PM
Re: Aikido and Hapkido
[Re: KiDoHae]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
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Oops, my apologies KiDo... I'll see if I can find some vids that demonstrate what I'm trying to get across. But for now: Pics available in Gozo Shioda's "Total Aikido" katate-dori-kokyu-nage ura = breath throw from wrist grab (by turning along the line of attack) shiho-nage = 4 corner/direction throw kotegaeshi = outward wrist twist throw kokyu-ho = breath extension method (usually practiced seated (seiza)) From Gaku Homma's book, "Children and the Martial Arts". fune-kogi undo = "boat-rowing" exercise sayu-undo = side-to-side extension exercise I know pics don't do justice, compared to video. PS: For those who think there's no "striking" in aikido, here's an interesting idea for people to experiment with: practice irimi nage (entering throw) as a neck breaking technique. Most aikido schools curve the arm and "rest" it on uke for a take down. The closest person I've seen that does it almost correctly is Steven Seagal, except he strikes uke's chest with the palm to forearm. The way I practice it is a "strike" across the jawline with my elbow crease. 
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#191512 - 10/31/05 07:34 PM
Re: Aikido and Hapkido
[Re: KiDoHae]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
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Quote:
Eyrie, can you find a vid clip of anything you mentioned?
Here's a version of Kotegaeshi which is widely practiced in very much the same way: http://aikido-france.net/download.php?video=aikido-iwama-kotegaeshi-franziska.mpg
Note the "overt striking". Also note the ever so subtle hip movement at the end of the throw (not that you can see Saito's hips clearly), but the sword cut across uke's chest is there. It's not obvious from the vid, but I think Saito was being "gentle". The other one with his son is a little more obvious, but still very subtle nonetheless... http://aikido-france.net/download.php?video=aikido-iwama-kotegaeshi-munadori-hs.avi
This is what I mean - the overt striking is not what one should be looking for - that's OK for "basics". It is the implied strikes that is really the key.
There are more vids on the Iwama France site: http://aikido-france.net/video/
Irimi nage (2 versions that are quite commonly done this way) is here: http://aikido-france.net/download.php?video=aikido-iwama-dt-irimi.mpg
Note the overt strike in the first version.
Now see how Saito does it: http://aikido-france.net/download.php?video=aikido-iwama-irimi-volker.mpg
Note the strike with the elbow crease to the jaw.
I would come in more to the outside and straighten my arm across the jawline and "pop" 'em while "pulling" the other hand to twist the head. But that's just how I like to do it... (Perhaps not very "aiki" you say, but let me assure you it is - if the timing is right) 
There are some nice clips on http://aikidojournal.com. This one in particular with Christian Tissier: http://www.aikidojournal.com/clips.php?id=50
(See the first vid). Note the very subtle changes in the overt striking techniques. Not also that body mechanics are EXACTLY the same as if one were striking. This is what I mean when I say "striking" is at the core of aikido.
The Shodokan folk have some nice animated sequences on their website: http://www.shodokan.ch/fr/17hon_01.html
Sorry for the long (and somewhat off-topic post). In a frail attempt to bring it back on track, KiDoHae, even though hapkido shares some basic techniques with aikido, and when you've had a look at some of these, perhaps you could share with us, what some of the more subtle differences are between the 2 arts? 
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#191513 - 10/31/05 09:14 PM
Re: Aikido and Hapkido
[Re: eyrie]
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Member
Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Fiji
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HKD is nothing like TKD, the kicks are not the same, someone show me a HKD school that teaches reverse spinning hook kicks or other kicks like that, and are pure and traditional and their instructor has no TKD experience. I am skeptical of any school that teaches high kicks and call itself HKD. This man teaches me, http://www.wka.org/Dong%20Yong%20Do.htmhe never shows us more than four styles of kicking all at the lower body. *bows respectfully*
_________________________
No matter how fashionable it is on Krypton, I will not wear my underwear on the outside of my Gi!!
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#191514 - 10/31/05 09:45 PM
Re: Aikido and Hapkido
[Re: h2whoa]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
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Whoa h2! You need to slow down and actually READ stuff...
Where exactly did I say TKD???? If I were you, I'd be very careful what you say on this forum.... in case you haven't noticed, please read the READ ME FIRST thread on this forum....
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#191515 - 10/31/05 11:44 PM
Re: Aikido and Hapkido
[Re: Neko456]
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Member
Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Fiji
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Quote:
Hapkido is like TKD,
I was refering to Neko not you eyrie!
*bows respectfully and apologetically*
_________________________
No matter how fashionable it is on Krypton, I will not wear my underwear on the outside of my Gi!!
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