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#191120 - 10/04/05 05:25 PM Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD..
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD inter circle method of training. Its said that Guru Dan Insanto is JKD concept and the other senior students outside or inside Guru Dans group maintain the inter circle ideas.

Whats the real deal? Is there any technical difference. Whose the most innovative and update? Who is JKD's senior teacher certified or not? Who certifies the instructors a board or a person?
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#191121 - 10/05/05 10:38 AM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: Neko456]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
there is a difference. The idea is to learn the things that these instructors are teaching us and then to apply the jkd concept to what we've learned. The concept being an attempt to use our body to the best of it's ability to overcome an opponent. The methods of teaching are seen as a platform or foundation from which we can explore and expand. There is a basic curriculum that Bruce Lee thought important enough to teach to everyone. We practise this until we know what we're doing and have learned all the pinciples, then we make the rest of the journey to becoming the best we can possibly be on our own. If we aren't taught the foundations, then ultimately, we will still arrive at the exact same point and fight in the exact same manner, its just that learning the basics thoroughly will greatly speed us along.
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#191122 - 10/05/05 07:39 PM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: jkdwarrior]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
It's all POLITICS! Don't get overly hung-up trying to analize the differences between organizations. People enjoy arguing about these alleged differences what is MORE important is the training.

What many don't understand is that the "Jun Fan gung fu" (origian JKD) is TAUGHT at many if not most JKD CONCEPT schools (such as Dan Inosanto's school).

JKD for the most part is complete garbage however (how it's often being trained). Again, don't get too hung-up over these political organizations.


-John

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#191123 - 10/06/05 11:38 AM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
From what I hear an see is JKD concept is leaning more toward Filapino or Kaila/Silat like arts, its true that the to teach some of the old JKD methods as a base but are guided by their leader lead. There delivery is more like Kaila/Silat but can do it all. Guru Dan, Ted Luckyucy students, Paul Vunaks,Larry Hartsell, Rick Faye, & Burton Richardson.

The JKD inner circle or original group each stress different strengths but as a hold still teach WC as a base instead of a part of the cirricullum, its the nucleus and they lean more toward Kicking boxing or Thai-boxing in delivery but can do the Kaila or WC infighting. Ted Wong, Jerry Poteet, Mark Stewart, and Gray Dill.

Then you got the guys in the middle like Dr. Beasley and Joe Lewis that seem to be in the middle like Sensei Beasely and Sensei Lewis more kickboxing/karate with JKD fakes and footwork? Obviously its pending your base system.
So its not all political you actually see what they perfer to do. All do some form of grapplng some strees it.

Its not all Politics its perference to a method of delivery IMHO, it exist even in JKD.
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#191124 - 10/07/05 11:11 AM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: Neko456]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
I studied under one of Rick Faye's students and he had a strong emphasis in muay thai and other kickboxing styles, and they trained some WC as part of their jun fan curriculum but I wouldn't say WC was their base.

This is probably a naive assumption since I don't have a ton of experience with JKD but I thought "JKD" essentially referred to the philosophy of "take what works and discard what doesn't work" and that "Jun Fan gung fu" referred to the actual techniques that Bruce Lee was developing that incorporated everything from WC to fencing to boxing to the filipino martial arts. Is that not true?

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#191125 - 10/07/05 05:24 PM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: ToddR]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
Quote:


This is probably a naive assumption since I don't have a ton of experience with JKD but I thought "JKD" essentially referred to the philosophy of "take what works and discard what doesn't work" and that "Jun Fan gung fu" referred to the actual techniques that Bruce Lee was developing that incorporated everything from WC to fencing to boxing to the filipino martial arts. Is that not true?



It is true but he didn't take them exactly as they were. He modified them to make them more effective. For example, using a boxing cross. He uses essentially the same technique, but he keeps the elbows in and down more and throws it with the fist vertical most of the time. This makes it a lot harder to see coming (Check it out for yourself in a mirror).
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#191126 - 10/07/05 06:22 PM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: jkdwarrior]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Also consider:

JKD is the PERSONAL expression of the "truth in combat". It's also about the discovery of this through sparring.
Your JKD will be different than Bruce Lee's JKD (or should be).

As for throwing the cross (or ANY punching for that matter), I don't prefer to throw vertical punches BECAUSE the elbows are down. If the elbow is down, the shoulder is ALSO down and leaving you WIDE OPEN for counter strikes.


-John

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#191127 - 10/08/05 01:21 AM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: Neko456]
jta175 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 2
Hello. I trained with Richard Bustillo for about 4 years. He is one of Bruce Lee's original students. He does not teach much of the original JKD. The main emphasis on his training is Muay Thai, Western Boxing and Jiujitsu. He also places some emphasis on on Kali/Escrima/Arnis but not nearly as much as the Muay Thai/Boxing. He shows very little Wing Chun to his students. I would Classify Sifu Bustillo as a "Concepts" approach JKD man. He will take certain concepts from what he learned from Bruce Lee (Such as broken rhythm, simultaneous defense & offense, intercepting your opponent, etc) and show you how to apply them to Muay Thai. He believes that JKD is self learning and self expression through sparring.
I also trained very briefly under Sifu Mark Stewart in original JKD. Sifu Stewart is a student of Sifu Ted Wong. As I understand it, Ted Wong was the last private student and a good friend of Bruce Lee. I must tell you that the "original" JKD was, to me, very different from the "concept" JKD. The basic stance was different. The kicks I learned there were very different from Muay Thai type kicks (but in my opinion, just as effective).
I enjoyed both types of training. I saw strengths and weaknesses to both types.

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#191128 - 10/08/05 09:08 AM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: JKogas]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Yeah, my JKD is A LOT different than Bruce Lee's! (slower, weaker...)
Good point though, I love the idea of creating a style all one's own based on your strengths and weaknesses. I've known musicians that apply the "Tao of JKD" to their musical style--they take what's best from a variety of genres and methods and try to create a style that's uniquely their own. Easier said than done, though!

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#191129 - 10/13/05 03:12 PM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: JKogas]
Fluid_Motion Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 37
John, that's why I spend my time training as opposed to posting often on message boards. If I do post however, it's only to point people to JKD training; nothing more, nothing less. Well, with the exception of my usual tongue and cheek rhetoric thrown around.
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#191130 - 10/14/05 07:00 PM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: Fluid_Motion]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Fluid Motion -

I can relate. I don't post on hardly ANY "JKD" forums myself. I'm rarely on THIS one. I essentially outgrew JKD (although I believe I embody it's core philosophy now more than EVER). The VAST majority of JKD guys are just Bruce Lee groupies and many of those that aren't wouldn't understand real JKD if it walked up behind them and played the FLUTE!

But it's all good. Not everyone is meant to get it. It's ok if many fall short. That's life. I'm good with that now.

Take care!


-John

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#191131 - 10/15/05 11:25 AM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: JKogas]
foreverrocker Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 55
I would also have to add that, no one and I mean no one knows where Bruce would have taken his ideas. He hated giving JKD a name...people hang on words that would have come and gone if he lived. There is no wrong way, just your way.

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#191132 - 10/22/05 09:57 AM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: Neko456]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
i saw a video interview with dan inosanto and he was saying that for it to be bruce lee's JKD ,you have to have been taught the stuff bruce learned and taught.
if not then its still JKD ,just not bruce lee's.
he was also saying that some of bruce lee's original students who teach have stayed completly loyal to him where as dan himself has added things and tried to progress on top of what bruce lee taught,and thats where the divide is.
he also said that bruce gave a JKD certificate(1 of 3 kinds of certificates bruce gave) saying you were personaly trained by him,and dan himself he got to level 3,which he could give rank to.
though when he died people said you cant give rank,bruce never gave rank,though dan says when he was alive he could give rank upto his own so he gives rank.


Edited by matxtx (10/22/05 11:23 AM)

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#191133 - 10/22/05 05:16 PM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: matxtx]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Of course, because as Lee said, JKD is "different for everybody".

-John

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#191134 - 10/26/05 02:46 PM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: Neko456]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
To me the difference is that jkd concept is teaching people how to express them selves with knowledge and explore it to discover their own way which is what lee intended in my opinion and the other jkd is just people copying lee's moves and teaching people them without really grasping the philosophical foundation that jkd concept is.

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#191135 - 10/26/05 03:08 PM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: etaks86]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
You and Matx

Now thats what I was expecting real non political or non base perface discussion of what each version is looking for. Not that I agree totally with your definition but it did simplfy the way some people think their way of no way operate.

What I was getting I felt was, I don't understand, and it shouldn't matter, its a family thing, or I'm not letting you in on our politcal issue. I don't want in, but I would like understand why it exist.

I think the original JKD or Jun-fa trainers are looking for the same freedom but they are tied deeply into having wing chun as base or larger part of the system, especailly the guys originally trained in LA. Except the Guru Dan who leads the JKD concept idea. Do you agree with this idea.

Do you think the JKD concept guys lean to heavely on the Filipino/Thai arts?


Edited by Neko456 (10/26/05 03:12 PM)
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#191136 - 10/26/05 03:18 PM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: Neko456]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
indeed people don't understand that wing chun was only the root of lee's jkd but it doesn't have to be the root of yours at all. the foundation of someone's jkd can be wing chun, karate, judo, aikido, boxing, thai, any martial art can be your root it's not your root art which makes it jkd it's how you express the philosophies lee tought to modify and improve your way. as for the them leaning on thai or the other to much that's all up to them it's nither wrong or right if it's trully how they express them selves. there of course as in all matters to much political non sense involved but to me jkd is ment more as a philosophy to improve your way or your art, it to me has nothing to do with which art is your foundation. wing chun kuen just happened to be what lee was trained in it could have be anything. jkd to me has not much to do with the art you use only the way you use it and express yourself.

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#191137 - 10/26/05 05:16 PM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: Neko456]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
i think i missunderstood the question.
i thought you were asking whats the difference between the different JKD people.
its true that JKD is anything..in fact if you go to the extreme everyone should even name their art whatever they want ,,JKD is bruce lee's word.
and thats the thing..people go off his name.his name cant be escaped when speaking of JKD.
Thats why dan inosanto came out,so to speak.too many people claiming they were trained by bruce or that its bruce lee's JKD.he says not many even know all that he was teaching.
of the students of bruce lee...some have stayed the same and havnt changed it ....some have added .though both root themselves in bruces original teachings .thats were his original students divide.change or no change
as for others......people who do karate ,boxing.judo ..were then saying its bruce lees JKD.
it wasnt ,..its their JKD.
for it to be related to bruce lee it has to have been taught by one his students or a student of the student,,in the things bruce rooted JKD in.
the grappling stuff actually wasntt taught by bruce...he was only experimenting with it...on dan inosanto....though without resistance.so they;'d spar..enter...go close and trap..go to locks or ground ..though the grounded person was offering no resistance..
thats one of the progressions dan inosanto has made ..they started to resist with BJJ etc.the muay thai bruce didnt go much into...and dan inosanto was taught it and traind it much more, later on after bruces death.
...thats my understanding from an interview and video of him showing what bruce and him USED to train.
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#191138 - 10/28/05 11:42 AM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and J [Re: matxtx]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
I have never trained in a JKD class, so what I say will probably be rubbish. However, I have found JKD principles extremely useful in looking at my own art (Chang Hon TKD). Bruce Lee's Tao of JKD stresses efficiency and directness. I can see very similar principles applied to TKD blocks and strikes. If they are not there, I put them there- changing the bits that seem to be neither of the above.

I think too many people get "stuck" in the freeness of JKD. They go to a class and assume that what they're learning is JKD, when in fact they are being taught fighting techniques- the JKD must be learnt by themselves, through critical analysis of what they are being taught and understanding of their own body.

The "My art is better than yours" stuff is often trundled out, but the truth is that looking critically at an art is nothing to do with saying what works and what doesn't OBJECTIVELY. Instead, one must make a SUBJECTIVE analysis of what will work for you. This is what I love about the MAs, you can be what you want.

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#191139 - 10/28/05 12:16 PM Re: Is there a difference in the JKD concept and JKD.. [Re: matxtx]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
No you explaination of the Concept and the Jun-fa gung-fu/Jkd was the comment that I wanted to expand upon. The difference in teh two ways of thinking and why each feel that the other maybe going too far away form what they think Bruce would have like it to go. In one of Guru Dans writing he said Tha Bruce warned him not to embrace too many of the Filipino arts ways though he may be trapped/bound by them. Was this warning valid? did Guru Dan forget it?

Is the JKD/Jun-fa practictioners bound by maintaing only what Bruce taught or would have taught? does this make it a Lee's style?, In that does it contradicts what the real idea of JKD is, 1 being freedom of style.


Edited by Neko456 (10/28/05 12:18 PM)
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