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#190987 - 10/04/05 11:08 AM Learning Krav Maga in few lessons?
queenmedic Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 9
Yesterday I went kickboxing at a gym and I was talking to someone there who told me that I would learn everything I need to know in a few lessons. I know she is not that knowledgable in the subject but I would like to hear any thoughts on this. She also mentioned that it was only for "self defense". That is exactly what I want. I should mention that before this I took JKD for 2 years. Anyway, I would like to hear peoples opinions.

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#190988 - 10/04/05 12:51 PM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: queenmedic]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Please understand that there is a HUGE difference between learning something and being able to apply it.

Many self defense principles can be learned (intellectually) in a few lessons. Getting your mind and body to connect, and be able to apply them under pressure is an entirely different scenario. Usually requiring years of dedicated practice.

I am a bit confused - in 2 years of JKD, you did not learn anything for self defense?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#190989 - 10/04/05 01:04 PM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: MattJ]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
as matt said - there is a huge difference between learning and applying. that said - you can probrably learn all the basics of krav maga in a half dozen lessons, espectially with some martial arts background. krav maga was designed to be tought to soldiers, without martial arts backgrounds, in a short period. a person should be able to be profitient after about 200 hours or so of good instruction hard training.

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#190990 - 10/04/05 01:35 PM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: MattJ]
queenmedic Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 9
Thanks for your input. Yes I did. I wanted to learn something different. Basically, I am not interested in competing I want to defend myself and feel confident. I'm sure you would agree that 2 years in any style if not enough. At least that is how I feel.

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#190991 - 10/04/05 02:53 PM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: queenmedic]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
you may be able to learn every technique and combative krav has to offer in a few lessons (i'd say at least 15, but that's just me), but you will not know how to defend yourself unless you undertake as much of the physical/combat stress training that you can. krav training was designed to make you feel as close to being in a real life threatening situation as possible, without anyone really getting hurt - if you're not getting that from your school, i'd be a little suspicious of them. also, i took jkd as well and think it compliments krav nicely, as do MT, HKD and JJ. krav also has room for limitless expansion, so don't feel like you need to stop at the techniques you're taught.

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#190992 - 10/04/05 06:50 PM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
Quote:

you may be able to learn every technique and combative krav has to offer in a few lessons (i'd say at least 15, but that's just me), but you will not know how to defend yourself unless you undertake as much of the physical/combat stress training that you can. krav training was designed to make you feel as close to being in a real life threatening situation as possible, without anyone really getting hurt - if you're not getting that from your school, i'd be a little suspicious of them. also, i took jkd as well and think it compliments krav nicely, as do MT, HKD and JJ. krav also has room for limitless expansion, so don't feel like you need to stop at the techniques you're taught.




Every technique and combative in 15 lessons?

Maybe most of the strikes(kmees,puches,elbowa, etcc)but there are tons of joint locks that cannot be learned in 15 lessons. There are also different variations of techniques depending on the level of aggression that cannot be learned in 15 lessons.

Having said that, I think a person in reasonable shape could learn how to kick,skin pinch, eye gouge at least in theory in a short time.

Remember, perfect practice makes perfect
_________________________
Be safe, If not kick someones ass.

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#190993 - 10/04/05 11:06 PM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: Plantman]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
well, i said "at least". and i mean 15 in a row, for 4-5 hours a day AT LEAST. actually, scratch that. i don't have enough faith in the bulk of MA students to pull it off. including me.
nevermind.

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#190994 - 10/05/05 08:06 AM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
this is pretty much exactly what krav was desiged for - to take people on an intensive 2 week course and teach them the basic, or a 4-6 week course and teach them to be profitient.

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#190995 - 10/05/05 03:46 PM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: queenmedic]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Wow, I'm sorry to hear that people have this impression of krav maga. Yes, it's designed to be simple and easy to learn because it strives to use techniques based on your "natural responses" but to think that you could learn the entire krav maga system, or even the basics, in a few weeks of even intense training is really just wrong. For example, in the curriculum 'sanctioned' by the National Tranining Center in LA, you don't even cover gun defenses until blue belt level--the level I was working on when I switched to FIGHT. The 'belt' progression for krav maga is pretty similar to most trad MA's: white to yellow in about 3 months, yellow to orange in another 3-5 months, orange to green in 6-9 months, green to blue in 12-18 months, blue to brown in 12-18 months, and black belt by invitation only. I put belts in quotes because a lot of KM schools don't award belts, only level rankings (I - V). Don't kid yourselves, krav is a demanding art and, contrary to some misconceptions, it does have a variety of techniques, kicks for e.g.--not as many as most trad MA's but it has hook kicks, crescent kicks, and a few others that I can't do very well! And, when you test for your instructor certification they beat the HELL out of you! No, I've never done it myself so forgive me if I sound like an armchair martial artist, but both my instructors said it was the hardest thing they've ever done--one instructor is a 24 year old 2nd degree black belt in Ed Parker's American kenpo and the other instructor is a 4th degree bb in TKD and a 3rd degree bb in hapkido (he's also a triathlete). And, the level tests are ridiculous--they typically last 3 or 4 hours and by the end you really feel like you've been in a fight. And, the two krav programs I was involved in--one in Seattle and one in PA, were adamant that we spar A LOT! We worked standup and ground work during every class. No paper tigers in those programs. Hearing that someone told you that you could learn the basics of krav maga in a couple weeks is really sad.
I should note that my experience with krav maga is strictly civilian so my comments really have no bearing on someone like globetrotter's experience with krav in the IDF. We did have some former IDF guys in our gym in Seattle and they said something to the effect of, "yeah, we got some krav training in the Israeli military, but but it was pretty brief." So again, my comments only apply to krav programs that stem from the NTC in LA and not krav as it is practiced in the Israeli army. I'm not here to offend anyone! Honest 1
cheers


Edited by ToddR (10/05/05 04:02 PM)

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#190996 - 10/05/05 05:53 PM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: ToddR]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
where did you train in seattle? i'm thinking about moving back there actually, cuz chicago smells and the seafood sucks.
and i still say you could "learn" krav in at LEAST 15 days. you just won't be any good at it.

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#190997 - 10/05/05 09:39 PM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
It used to be called "MOdern Martial Arts" and was originally in Bellevue, WA but then it moved to Seattle, underneath the Gold's Gym at the Convention Center downtown, but now it's in Auburn I think. Sorry for the runaround but I stopped training there two years ago and switched to a fantastic JKD school called MKG Seattle. It's a Dan Inosanto-affiliated school-they teach kali, muay thai, jun fan/jkd, BJJ and CSW, savate, silat!!! Great bunch of people too--Andy, Bob, and Tammy are awesome instructors and people. They're in the Greenwood neighborhood of Seattle. Best of luck

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#190998 - 10/06/05 07:28 AM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: ToddR]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
Tod,

I think that there is a huge difference between krav, as it is tought in the states, and krav in israel. one difference is that, unlike most other martial arts that I know of, krav may be more simple the closer it is to its source. my feeling is that most of the masters of krav maga who work outside of israel have followed a similar path - they studied a japanese or korean martial art as a younger person, did krav for a while in the army, went on to work extensivly in various martial arts for a few years, and now teach "krav", to which they have added things that might have been missing in the origional curriculum. so that the best krav masters are actually teaching krav enhanced with TKD, BJJ, haipkido and other arts.

krav, by its nature, was started to be a simple art that could be tought quickly to people who were fit but didn't know any martial arts. it has evolved, and kept the origional philosophy while doing so, which is great.

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#190999 - 10/06/05 08:48 AM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: globetrotter]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
I think you're right on the money globetrotter. The civilian and military versions of krav are designed for difference purposes - one meant to be a system that you can train for years but which will also allow you to protect yourself pretty quickly and the other krav (the IDF version) is a crash course meant to prepare soldiers dealing with things like terrorists).
One of the selling points of the "civilian" krav maga was that it's supposed to be an "open art" so it will incorporate new techniques as necesssary, like BJJ. I think this was what most attracted me to krav maga (and later to JKD) and away from some traditional martial arts -- that the best krav instructors will see the emergence of, say, BJJ or sambo and incorporate some of those techniques into krav. I think that's a good thing. In fact, while I don't think there are a whole lot of similarities between krav and JKD, the two arts are often compared because of their "open system" philosophy. But, in my experience, krav training is a lot more "scenario-based", something that I didn't experience in JKD, and there wasn't an emphasis on stress training and "chaos" drills in my JKD school. I remember training with a few women at the JKD school who were disappointed that it wasn't more self-defense oriented and I think a few of them switched to krav. And, I remember my JKD instructors talking about integrating some RBSD into their JKD. Now, I think that is awesome! Not to get too far off the track here, but this to me is what all martial arts should strive for--to use the philosophy of taking what is useful and integrating it into your art and discarding what doesn't work, but with the understanding that what works and doesn't work is going to be different for everyone. I hope krav will continue to have this type of mindset.

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#191000 - 10/06/05 12:33 PM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: ToddR]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Outstanding post!
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#191001 - 10/07/05 06:05 PM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
I found their new website: http://www.pmalynnwood.com/

It looks like Patrick is still teaching krav maga but he's also involved in the Premier Martial Arts program which looks very cool! Anyone know who started the PMA program? It looks like a prominent instructor in the Philly area, Ernie Kirk, is involved in PMA as well.

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#191002 - 10/07/05 08:05 PM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: ToddR]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

I found their new website: http://www.pmalynnwood.com/

It looks like Patrick is still teaching krav maga but he's also involved in the Premier Martial Arts program which looks very cool! Anyone know who started the PMA program? It looks like a prominent instructor in the Philly area, Ernie Kirk, is involved in PMA as well.




Ernie IS Premier Martial Arts and Krav-Maga PA. He is the guy who certifies and licences dojos for Krav. I know Ernie quite well. I train at at the only non-premier gym that he has certified and licenced here in Philly area. I also train and attend seminars at his locations from time to time.

He has a huge new dojo on South RT202...almost in Delaware.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#191003 - 10/08/05 08:59 AM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: RangerG]
ToddR Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 148
Loc: York, PA
Wow, that looks like a great program! Wish they had one of those closer to York.

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#191004 - 09/30/07 05:33 PM Re: Learning Krav Maga in few lessons? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
SeattleRez Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/30/07
Posts: 1
Personally speaking, I really think you would be hard-pressed to find a better krav maga instructor in North America than Jay Pachl at Krav Maga Seattle (www.kravmagaseattle.com). He has 20 years of experience and is an incredible instructor. He is fully linked in with the International Krav Maga Federation, and has done training seminars in Europe as well as across North America, with "regular" people as well as law enforcement and military, in addition to his "normal" classes here in Seattle. And he is in constant contact and colloboration with the Israelis who run IKMF (www.krav-maga.com) (don't forget the "-" in between "krav" and "maga"). This is in North Seattle, not downtown or the East Side. I am neither a great athlete nor a great self-defense practitioner, but I have learned a LOT - by which I mean a LOT - from Jay and the phenomenal group as a whole at KM Seattle. The classes are in my opinion the best value in the city of Seattle.

- One extraordinarly satisfied KM practioner

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