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#190887 - 10/03/05 10:32 PM Martial arts and modern weapons
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I have been contemplating how a blend of martial arts and weapons would play out in a real self defense situation.I do believe that neither a weapon or martial arts can guarantee saftey but was thinking both might be tough to beat. If someone surprise attacks you,you better get control of your weapon before he does.Having good martial arts training will give you a distinct advantage to make sure that happens.Any additional thoughts?
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#190888 - 10/03/05 11:35 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: SANCHIN31]
UofM Shorin Ryu Offline
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Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 981
Weapons definitely give you an edge.

Unconditional weapons should also be considered. The stick on the ground, water bottle, trash can lid, etc. Maybe if you use these as extentions of your arms, you can adapt your martial art training to virtually anything?

Just a thought...
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#190889 - 10/04/05 12:00 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: SANCHIN31]
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
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Registered: 04/10/04
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Loc: Texas, USA
Mindset, it is all about mindset.
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#190890 - 10/04/05 12:03 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: nekogami13 V2.0]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

Mindset, it is all about mindset.




Care to elaborate a little?
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#190891 - 10/04/05 12:49 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: SANCHIN31]
Benjamin Offline
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Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 301
Loc: S'pore
Mindset. The mindset to whether you want to utilize your environment to survive.(If I did not interpret wrongly) Even sand can act as weapons. If someone is punching you from above, you can throw sand into his eyes if possible. Smashed bottles, roll-up newspaper, and even rocks too can be used as weapons.

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#190892 - 10/04/05 01:00 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: Benjamin]
SANCHIN31 Offline
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Registered: 12/26/04
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Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I'm not talking about improvised weapons,I'm talking about weapons legally carried by martial artist.
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#190893 - 10/04/05 01:03 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: SANCHIN31]
Benjamin Offline
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Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 301
Loc: S'pore
Sorry then. In my country, carrying weapons are illegal though. Can you give some examples of legal weapons carried by MAist?

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#190894 - 10/04/05 01:09 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: Benjamin]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
In the US:
gun
knife
stun gun
kubotan
probably many more I can't think of

Some do require permits.
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#190895 - 10/04/05 01:17 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: JoelM]
Benjamin Offline
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Registered: 11/12/04
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Loc: S'pore
I would probaby use the knife to ward off attackers. As for the gun, I wouldn't dare for I am afraid of missing. Stun gun could be used in a tight guard position if so unfortuantely you go to the ground and if you could find some way to reach into your pocket. Otherwise, I think it could be used in place of submission on the mount. As for kubotan, what is that?

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#190896 - 10/04/05 01:24 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: Benjamin]
JoelM Offline
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Kubotan: modernly put on a keychain. An implement to strengthen fists for punching and using on pressure/striking points. Here are a few examples:
http://www.shark-systems.com/kubotan.jpg
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#190897 - 10/04/05 01:56 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: JoelM]
UofM Shorin Ryu Offline
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Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 981
Sorry Sanchin, wasn't sure what you were lookin for originally.

Kubotan are LEGAL?!? Wow, talk about learnin somethin new every day....

Well there's no doubt a martial artist with a weapon stands a helluva lot better chance than he/she does without, but it would be tricky to project self-defense using some of the above items mentioned.

Gotta be careful in this day and age, even defending yourself can land your butt in jail if the jury doesn't see it the same way you do.

Any thoughts on what situations would be deemed "appropriate" in what situations?
(other than obviously any and everything goes when it comes to life or death).

Has anyone here used a weapon in a self-defense situation? Share the experience! Spread the 1st hand knowledge!
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#190898 - 10/04/05 03:16 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: UofM Shorin Ryu]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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My thoughts on the matter are very simple, Sanchin, I have trained with a knife, outside of what is taugh/required for AKK. I obviously don't carry it with me everywhere, but there are a few places I would have my knife on me, and even the pocket knives I carry are long enough to suit as a weapon if needed. As to actually using one in a fight, I haven't had to, fortunately. But yes, training with a knife, knowing how to use it, and having one on me often enough that it makes a difference does increase my survivle that little bit. Oh, and for the sake of avoiding an argument, any pocket knife I carry has a locking blade.

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#190899 - 10/04/05 12:43 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: JoelM]
funstick5000 Offline
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Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
Quote:

Kubotan: modernly put on a keychain. An implement to strengthen fists for punching and using on pressure/striking points. Here are a few examples:
http://www.shark-systems.com/kubotan.jpg




must...not...make....lewd...comments....aaaggghhhh
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#190900 - 10/04/05 01:14 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: funstick5000]
globetrotter Offline
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Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
I have a koboton with cs gas/pepper spray sometimes, and sometimes I carry an expandable baton. I would rather not carry a knife, as I feel that they are more difficult to avoid killing somebody, and possibly easier to have used against you. I think that the ability to put up a mist of gas is a great advantage in a self defence situation, and an expandible baton is one of the all time great self defence weapons.

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#190901 - 10/04/05 01:36 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: globetrotter]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Granted, the knife is more likely to be used lethally, but the fact of the matter is, if I'm pulling a knife out, then I am in mortal jeopordy to begin with (moreso than an emtpy handed fight). Pepper spray can be good to have, but in CA, the law requires training and certification to use it in many scenarios (last I heard).

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#190902 - 10/04/05 04:39 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Always liked that knife Crocodile Dundee pulled out...."now that's a knife"
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#190903 - 10/04/05 05:57 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: UofM Shorin Ryu]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Notice the key ring on the kubatons,you must have keys on this or it's illegal.
The point of the thread was that a trained martial artist have a better chance with a weapon than just some guy carrying a weapon with no experience.
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#190904 - 10/04/05 06:38 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: SANCHIN31]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Most definitely, being trained is to using a weapon as the tracks are to a train. Controlled, precise movements with a nearly instinctual reaction is the key.

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#190905 - 10/04/05 10:46 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Benjamin Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 301
Loc: S'pore
I have a question for those who have use knifes for self-defence. If one has not previosuly train in using knife for self-defence, would it hinder with your hand-to-hand techniques?

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#190906 - 10/05/05 01:05 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: Benjamin]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I don't quite get what you're asking. I can give a generic answer, though. If you train to use a knife, you will be better at using a knife. If you train (properly) to fight empty handed, you will fight better empty handed. If you train both, well then, you will be in much less trouble should you need to defend yourself.

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#190907 - 10/05/05 01:48 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Benjamin Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/04
Posts: 301
Loc: S'pore
What I am asking is that should a person trained only in hand-to-hand combat carry a knife for self-defence? I have never had any knife training. My guess is that there are elements of punch mechanics. If so, can a person let's say trained in Karate able to handle a knife well?

If you were to use a knife, obviously most attackers would be intimidated to go away. I believe some will stay. Multiple attackers who got their ego boosted or a robber who himself have got a knife. Nett effect is that when a serious confrontation do come up, it is indeed extremely serious. Meaning that when you really do need a weapon for fighting and not as an intimidation factor, it is usually a life-and-death situation. What would you do? Eg. 3 street punks with bats that have cornered you waiting to beat you up. Grab the weakest one and hold the knife on him to get yourself out? What about slashing your way out?

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#190908 - 10/05/05 08:11 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: Benjamin]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
if you have trained and are comfortable in hand to hand, and know nothing about a knife, it would probrably not help you - it could also defocus you and create chaos in your mind deciding to go with what you know and are good at, or with the knife.

on the other hand - lets say you have a CS gas canister and you have planned out what you want to do - you see 3 guys attacking you - you put up a cloud of gas in each ones face, and then you launch into an assult with your skills, while they have lowered capacity. or, you do techniques that you know, but with a kobotan in your hand. these compliment your knowledge and skills.

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#190909 - 10/05/05 04:03 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: Benjamin]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
That's the one thing I don't get. Every culture has some form of knife. Why aren't these trained more in MA. My AKK instructor made sure to teach us how to use the three weapons in AKK (I already knew staff, but he does teach how to use one to his brown belts), not just how to defend against them. The reason is that knowing how to use the weapons gives us better understanding of how to defend them, as well as the ability, especially with stick or staff, to obtain an "equalizer" and fight back. Like I said earlier, I almost always have a lock-blade pocket knife big enough to fight with on my person. If someone pulls a weapon on me, there's my equalizer.

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#190910 - 10/05/05 11:33 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

That's the one thing I don't get. Every culture has some form of knife. Why aren't these trained more in MA.




Knives are more of a utility or last resort weapon. If you're in war and you have to fight with your knife, then you are in big trouble.
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#190911 - 10/08/05 12:43 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: JoelM]
CobraLionz Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 39
I usually carry wtih me a big ass heckler koch .45. I think that will pretty much freeze any 2 legged attacker in his tracks . If not I'm sure the FMJ or hydrashock will

Knives and kubatons are poor man's self defense lol.

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#190912 - 10/10/05 11:05 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: SANCHIN31]
dadoody5 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 63
Frame of mind/quick wittedness in general are good defenses. There's a lot of dumb people out there who are bad at thinking on their feet....and evven then....

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#190913 - 10/11/05 04:47 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: CobraLionz]
funstick5000 Offline
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Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
Quote:

I usually carry wtih me a big ass heckler koch .45. I think that will pretty much freeze any 2 legged attacker in his tracks . If not I'm sure the FMJ or hydrashock will

Knives and kubatons are poor man's self defense lol.




or a man unwilling to go to prison for the remainder of his life to save his wallet.

actually there is something i've been wondering for a while. what if, in america, instead having concealed weapons permits you had unconcealed permits? i wonder how much crime would be lowered? or raised?
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#190914 - 10/11/05 05:28 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: funstick5000]
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
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Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
One state-Arizona, I believe-use to have a law that if you carried a gun you had to show 2" of holster.

I don't think they had a lot of those people being attacked.
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#190915 - 10/12/05 10:20 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: globetrotter]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
You spray three guys and let them fall forward or kick the closest away from you and fall back. You don't want to enter that cloud of pepper spray, I'd wait for them to start choking & coughing as their falling out of the cloud then attack them again, other wise RUN!! The sprays done
its job.

Some people it doesn't affect fully you could deal with him as he step thru the cloud, most likely his eyes and nose are running. Advanatge to You.

Good counter to a multiple just an tacticle error IMO, entering the pepper spray cloud, that stuff can put a hurt on you, no neeed for all four of you to be coughing, whezzing on bending knee.

Other then that I commend your non lethal, personnel protection package, the Kubaton is almost like brass knuckles.

CobraLionz -I usually carry wtih me a big ass heckler koch .45. I think that will pretty much freeze any 2 legged attacker in his tracks . If not I'm sure the FMJ or hydrashock will

Knives and kubatons are poor man's self defense lol.

Defintely a show stopper and bank account wrecker, but excellent choice of auto pistol, you got taste and rich parents, I assume? Somebodies got money.


Edited by Neko456 (10/12/05 10:40 AM)
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#190916 - 10/12/05 10:49 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: Neko456]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
So, what I get from this thread, is no one can apply weapons training from traditional MA to modern, legal weapons (which appear to be the gun and knife). It appears that Nekogami pointed to the real applicability: the mindset.

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#190917 - 10/12/05 11:32 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: harlan]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Unless your traditional martial arts training consists of knife (Filipino MA is all that I know of that does) training, then no.

I don't know of any so-called traditional MA's that train for gun usage.

But why do you limit your search to traditional MA? Fletch has espoused the benefits of many modern h2h and knife training systems. Just because they have a cute acronym for a moniker doesn't give them any less credibility than a 100-year old system with a foreign name.
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#190918 - 10/12/05 11:47 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: JoelM]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Had a difficult time with the original question. Was obvious that trad. weapons not applicable to guns. Did he mean empty-hand MA against a gun/knife? Or as applied to one's own gun/knife?

"Traditional" meant 'not modern'. Does he mean modern? Does that include gas canisters? Funky thread.

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#190919 - 10/12/05 12:49 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: JoelM]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I may not be correct but I got that he was thinking supplementing Trad MA with Modern weapons. In that case there or many Trad arts that have added Arnis/Silat/Bando or Thai weapon training into their class study.

Should MAs carry knives for SD depends on the laws in your area and how comfortable U feel with that tool. I carry a knife but not as a main form of s/d, its mostly for utility purpose but its part of the total package. In the scenairo 3-4" Knife vs. a Bat I don't like those odds.

Anyway thats what I got out his question, and my replies were base on that.
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#190920 - 10/12/05 04:29 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: Neko456]
funstick5000 Offline
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Loc: West Yorkshire, England
i have one other question that fits nicely into this thread.

has anyone heard of katar? (apparantley a 'real' martial art made widespread by the film equilibrium) one of my friends at school says he trained in it. i suppose anyone whith a basic knoledge of sticking hands could slap a gun in one of those hands!

i have a lot of doubts about it tho, and to me it raises the question why would someone train people to use semi automatic pistols in a country where all firearms are illigal with severe repercussions.
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#190921 - 12/14/05 03:41 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: funstick5000]
dud Offline
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Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 96
I think that I saw the film (isnīt the one that resembles 1984 from Orwell, where they do fight against emotions, etc.) and though I donīt think this art is a reality, I did like what I saw in the movie. He was using the guns in some martial art fashion, very attractive.

I am thinking now about the possibility of using a gun as a percussive weapon in short range, when the bad man has closed the gap to quick for me to load the weapon. And one can hit the BG with the weapon after taking it away from his hands on a gun disarming. Is an option secondary to shooting him for me, but is another choice, less lethal and better for Court.
If the gun disarm works, of course...
Dud
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#190922 - 12/15/05 12:33 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: dud]
funstick5000 Offline
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Loc: West Yorkshire, England
yeah you've got the right film. the techniques are very pretty and i do love that sticking hands scene at the end. oh and an update on the friend, the gun thng is a very small part of the art he trained in - from what he describes it seems a lot like wing chun.
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#190923 - 12/20/05 08:04 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: SANCHIN31]
Khayman Offline
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Registered: 03/05/03
Posts: 724
Loc: Wiltshire, UK
Quote:

Notice the key ring on the kubatons,you must have keys on this or it's illegal.
The point of the thread was that a trained martial artist have a better chance with a weapon than just some guy carrying a weapon with no experience.




In the UK even carrying the Kubotan with keys on is illegal. The term 'made or adapted' covers so many things its best not to even think about weapons unless your life depends on it.
The Kubotan had always seemed a grey area because martial arts shops sell them with the keyring which seems to imply you can put your keys on them and carry.
At a police training session I went to a few years ago we were looking through a selection of weapons and the kubotan was pulled out. They told us as they were made as a martial arts weapon they were illegal to carry even if its 'just a keyring' officer. Most PO's know what they are.

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#190924 - 12/20/05 10:11 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: Khayman]
funstick5000 Offline
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Loc: West Yorkshire, England
good thing i deceided not to buy one then!
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#190925 - 12/22/05 11:40 AM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: SANCHIN31]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I blend Modern weapons into my MA training and teach it to selected students as a elective or add on course in personal protection. With conceal carry law here its good to train and familarize yourself with such weapons in different scenairos. For your saftey and the general public.

Most ruffins or GP would state," yeah that Kung-fu stuff is alright but what if the guy goes and get a gun". In my younger days I used to say, you mean go get one of these exposing my Beretta in my shoulder holster. One of the reason I admire Steven Segal training is that he extended his PP progam to modren weapons, he is a expert with the auto pistol (teaching a kendo stance in his shooting technique). It true you can't carry a Katana in the streets. I teach to carry a package of items on you and in your car. Times have changed we have to adjust our training to suit it.
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#190926 - 12/30/05 09:02 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: Neko456]
samuraihavok Offline
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Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 12
the only thing about haveing those pack of weapons in the car if the other person has a gun you are not gonna try to get somethign out of your car to attck him with or at least i would hope not. in many self defense situations you only have a second to react to someone attacking you this is true evne more if they have a weapon. like you said you can't walk around with a sword or walk down the street with a staff or spear. however what you can have is a cane or a calapuable baton.

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#190927 - 12/31/05 01:03 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: samuraihavok]
Ed Glasheen Offline
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Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Interesting topic...
Modern weapons...like pistol and knife,
CQC is very different than say your average Tae Kwon do or Kung Fu study. It's simpler in most ways. The hardest part is using the weapon. I mean actualy stabbing someone or shooting someone. Lots of mental stuff here. As the average citizen, could you actually pull the trigger to end someone's life? Using a gun is not self defense...it is self protection....Your not defending your attacking. It gets even worst when you are up close using a knife.
To answer your question...no...I do not think your local dojo can train you in the mindset that you would have to have to be successful in using a weapon. I am not talking about the psycho rage that you see on tv. But to use a weapon, well lets say that is totaly out of the scope of most MA training.


Edited by Ed Glasheen (12/31/05 01:04 PM)
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#190928 - 12/31/05 01:22 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: Ed Glasheen]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Ed Glasheen -

Quote:

To answer your question...no...I do not think your local dojo can train you in the mindset that you would have to have to be successful in using a weapon. I am not talking about the psycho rage that you see on tv. But to use a weapon, well lets say that is totaly out of the scope of most MA training.




Huh. For once, I agree with Ed totally. I never bought into the weapons training I did over the years, and don't even bother with it now at all.
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#190929 - 07/02/06 11:38 PM Re: Martial arts and modern weapons [Re: JoelM]
Darthmaul Offline
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Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 16
Quote:

Kubotan: modernly put on a keychain. An implement to strengthen fists for punching and using on pressure/striking points. Here are a few examples:
http://www.shark-systems.com/kubotan.jpg




I was actually going to get one of these. Does the style matter? Oh I also seen some made of metal and wood.

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