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#190773 - 10/03/05 02:23 PM Bruce Lee's fights
roniwankan Offline
Member

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 99
Loc: Brazil, Goias
I practice karate, and like you I am Bruce's fan.
I read everything about him as I can.
I just have curiosity about one thing: Bruce Lee trainned Wing Chun, Wun Chu, karate and lot of other MA and created a method of trainning called Jeet Kune Do.
What kind of MA Bruce Lee had trainned beyond what I listed?
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#190774 - 10/03/05 06:42 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: roniwankan]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
You list several arts he supposedly trained in,but for how long and from who? I believe his ego created his own style rather than sticking around long enough to get past the basics in any one.So far he was the only one good at his style and only on film.I'm more impressed with Chuck Norris,a true warrior and competition fighter.
I have much respect for Bruce Lee,but more respect for many oters. Just my opinion,flame on.
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#190775 - 10/04/05 11:59 AM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: SANCHIN31]
dynacker Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 12
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
You cannot really deny Bruce Lee's skill and speed however I only believe he has really mastered Wing Chun out of all the arts he says he has done. He has also claimed to have done hapkido too - and i'm more than certain he has grappling experience (saw in one of the doc).

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#190776 - 10/04/05 12:45 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: SANCHIN31]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
One thing I like about Master Chuck Norris is that he lost to and beat some of the best and toughest Karate/TKD people in the USA in his prime, in bare knuckle events.

As great as he was and is. He is not easily fooled and could tell true skill and masterful technique, Master Norris was impressed & studied with Sifu Lee as did these Iron men Delgado, Stone, Lewis, Sander, Insanto and Kelly just to name a few. These guys were not impressed with other Kung-fu styles enough to study them (mostly because they beat them when the sparred) but they were impressed by Bruce Lee. Most of these guys sparred around with Lee and he changed what and how they thought and moved, thats just how it was back then. Somebody got hit hard.
Bruce would work with what you have and not try to make you over compeltely. Most won't change what they know work for them.

Back to Master Norris he continued his study like the pepetual student he is, and has studied BJJ among other arts. Bruce was Real, weather he was the best fighter in the world, its doubtful. But did he change the way we think and train absolutely!

Bruce was not thought highly of by Kung-fu Master of his day, but Karate fighters that worked with him thought very highly him. And the certified instructor that I've trained with in seminars and meets are very good. Dan Inasanto is simply fantastic the list goes on and on. Dan says that Lee was a better technicain then he!!!Is that possible? Some say not as good a teacher.
Dan didn't say the teaching thing others senior students did. Lee liked to spar, good people he could hit hard, not intermed students.


Bruce studied Grappling from Judo great Gene Lebelle among others, Bruce was a preverbal sponge when it came to training Savate, Western Boxing, Fencing, & wrestling, anything to improve his skills. I hear he wasn't much on Chi training.

Personally I perferr JKD over WC, in overall versitilty. Just me, I'm not hating. WC good too.


Edited by Neko456 (10/04/05 12:58 PM)
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#190777 - 10/04/05 04:22 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: roniwankan]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
What a lot of people don't understand is that jkd isn't a style of martial arts. Bruce did take certain parts of other forms, but in the end he was just expressing his body to its greatest potential. Bruce, like myself, did not believe in styles. There is no such thing when you're talking about street fighting. There are no rules, so in order to be the best you can possibly be, you need to fight using all the weapons and tactics to their greatest potential. Many people who study other styles are already doing this, so even though they don't conciously know it, they are doing jkd. If you've taken what your instructor has taught you, and done it a different way that is more effective, then you too are doing jkd. If you can make yourself better, then do it. It doesn't matter if you've been taught differently. Jkd is just a name. There shouldn't be a name for it. It is simply an attempt to make you a faster, stronger, more powerful, more efficient and more effective fighter. We are encouraged to change what we've learned if we think there is a better way. To tell the truth, for those who truly understand what jkd is, and want to get the most out of their body in terms of fighting, there is no other way.
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#190778 - 10/04/05 05:21 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: dynacker]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Actually its said that Bruce was not a certified instructor of Wing Chun, he was barely equalivant to a Shodan in a belt rank system. But he did undestand its entire basic concept and built upon that, you use to see a lot of trapping in JKD then it was more hiiting as you trap, now it seems to be more Kalia or Kickboxing movement.
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#190779 - 10/04/05 05:26 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: roniwankan]
Toryu88 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 1
Just some observations. The name, Jeet Kune Do or Way of the Intercepting Fist. Interesting that. What does it mean? I study Aikido. One of the more non traditional styles of Aikido. One of our primary tenets is to intercept our opponent as he begins his attack and pre-empt him or catch him when he is most vunerable. Lee encorporated much the same in JKD. It is interesting that he chose to use the Japanese phrase Do or Way in his style.
You can easily see what he meant by "intercept". Look at a clip of him stoping an opponent with a side kick, he closes on the opponent adding 2-3 times times the power (M*V=P)of his mass alone and much more than could be generated by his quadracepts muscle alone. These are principles easily demonstrated by an Aikidoka. I have effortlessly turned a would be opponent on his head before he or this two buddies got withing punching distance by intercepting him with Shomen-ate.

My son who studies Kenpo was skeptical until I showed him that it was impossible for him to land a kick or a punch before I was inside both and had broken his balance.

Lee cherry picked what he saw was best in a variety of arts.

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#190780 - 10/08/05 10:53 AM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: SANCHIN31]
foreverrocker Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 55
I agree that Bruce's ego helped him to create his type of martial art. I also agree that Norris is a great fighter, in the ring. Bruce was a real world fighter, unconfined from the restrictions of "ring" fighting. Bruce would eat Chuck up in a street fight and Chuck might win in the ring. Both of these greats brought us sooo much and I am thankful.

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#190781 - 11/16/05 11:24 AM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: foreverrocker]
mike_p Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 17
Bruce was first and foremost a street fighter. His first students included skilled judo men, boxers, and street fighters. According to them, he could tie them up and hit them at will. At a Seattle YMCA, he severely pounded a karate man who had repeatedly provoked him. Years later, karate competitors came to him to increase their effectiveness. He also did very well against hand picked gung fu man Wong Jack Man in Oakland. It is true that Bruce did not complete the entire Yip Man wing chun style in Hong Kong, but he developed speed, power, intensity, and his own technique to a level that few would be capable of dealing with. Ask the guys who trained with him.

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#190782 - 11/17/05 06:03 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: mike_p]
mike_p Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 17
In regard to the original question on this thread, Bruce studied some tai chi and hung gar gung fu previous to switching to his core art of Yip Man wing chun. He picked up pointers from senior wing chun fighters William Cheung and Wong Shun Leung. He also did some western boxing and learned some other gung fu forms before coming to the US. After coming here, he learned some preying mantis gung fu, red boat wing chun, and absorbed some judo and boxing from his first US students. He later picked up some fencing concepts from his brother, and absorbed pieces of other arts from students and friends. He never formally studied any other arts (karate, hapkido, tae kwon do, kali, etc) but exhibited great ability at seeing someone do technique, then later coming back and doing it better than them.

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#190783 - 11/17/05 07:27 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: roniwankan]
euan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/05
Posts: 51
Loc: perth scotland
well i know he certainly studiued wing chun and looked into other forms of kung fu aslo boxing(western), karate fencing in his book tao of jeet kune do he also talks of judo and ju jitsu ,his brother (in a tv intervew) tells us bruce lee used to get in many fights in the street to practice his kung fu(this was when he was young in china) i feel that what made bruce lee's jeet kune do concept so effective is the combination of non-telegraphic movments(almost impossible to block,that he aslo improvised for more speed and power) evasive techniques (like slping duking etc)and huge amounts of training and experience his methods were very direct and simple it doesnt really matter what arts he got his inspiration from sorry i went a bit off topic
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#190784 - 11/17/05 07:54 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: euan]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
It's SO very interesting to see people give their opinions on Bruce Lee as a "street fighter". It's amazing to see people talk of how easily "Lee would beat ________" (fill in the blank.

Lee never fought anyone of worth. Lee never even SPARRED anyone of worth. Lee had no fight record and in all honesty was merely a MOVIE STAR who's reputation was based on "performances and demonstrations". He could ill afford to fight anyone as his movie star persona was BASED upon this myth of him as "superhuman".

Lee was a very brilliant man. But he was just that, merely a man like any OTHER man.


-John

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#190785 - 11/17/05 08:32 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: JKogas]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
You heard the man! That's right folks, forget street fighting.... the real money is in MOVIES, or more precisely... ENTERTAINMENT!!!

There's no money in being a really good fighter, on or off the street... There may be good prize money to be won as a modern day gladiator in the cage, but the real money is from broadcasting rights, advertising sponsorships, and merchandizing.

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#190786 - 11/17/05 08:33 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: JKogas]
mike_p Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 17
It is also interesting that people who never trained or sparred with him feel it necessary to say he was nothing special. He had many skilled martial artists as students and friends, and they were all very impressed with him. Jesse Glover, Ed Hart, Jim Demile, Pat Strong, Ed Parker, James Lee, Howard Williams, Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillo, Bob Bremer, Larry Hartsell, H Nishioka, Jhoon Rhee, Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, others....all skilled martial artists that were very impressed with his abilities. If you judge Bruce by his coreographed movie stuff, it is easy to form such invalid conclusions.

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#190787 - 11/17/05 09:03 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: mike_p]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
He was revolutionary in his approach to learning MA. His propositions about MA, openmindedness and training styles are superb. Rarely in the history of the martial arts before Bruce Lee were there people as influential who were open minded about the arts enough to learn more than one art and then advocate learning more than one art.

The Tao of JKD is also an impressive document and his proposition of paring techniques down to their bare fundamentals is, in my opinion, a brilliant one.

Here's a question on the side for all the academics here. If I learn 3-4 arts following Bruce Lee's ideal but not officially learning JKD from a "JKD instructor", can I still call what I've learned JKD or do I have to have a base in JKD as taught by someone with a "lineage" descending to Lee?
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#190788 - 11/17/05 10:28 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: mike_p]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Mike_p wrote:

Quote:

It is also interesting that people who never trained or sparred with him feel it necessary to say he was nothing special.




Define “special”.

For the record, you never heard ME say he wasn’t anything “special”. I just don’t buy into hype, myth and other assorted bullsh*t. That’s pretty much what you get with Bruce Lee.


Quote:


He had many skilled martial artists as students and friends, and they were all very impressed with him. Jesse Glover, Ed Hart, Jim Demile, Pat Strong, Ed Parker, James Lee, Howard Williams, Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillo, Bob Bremer, Larry Hartsell, H Nishioka, Jhoon Rhee, Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, others....all skilled martial artists that were very impressed with his abilities.




It’s not like you’re going to hear any of them say ANYTHING “bad” about him, now is it?

Except when you get them behind closed doors...


Quote:


If you judge Bruce by his coreographed movie stuff, it is easy to form such invalid conclusions.




I wasn’t judging him by movie work. I was judging him by his factual lack of any proven fight record or, his factual lack of having sparred for real with damned near anyone of "worth".


-John

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#190789 - 11/18/05 09:15 AM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: JKogas]
mike_p Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 17
Please don't confuse me with ignorant Bruce Lee worshippers who think he was a superhuman. He was just a man with some exceptional abilities. Bruce is a deceased man, who you probably never met. What are your opinions about all the people I listed (skilled students, other famous martial artists) who studied under him or were amazed by what they saw/felt him do. Add Wally Jay, Leo Fong, Ted Wong and Dan Lee to the list. If Bruce was not a great fighter, why did they study with him or write/say such positive things about his skill. Are your opinions as valid as theirs? By your own reasoning, masters like G Funakoshi, J Kano, M Oyama, H.I. Cho, Bong Soo Han, Remy Presas, and others never fought anyone of worth either. Will you apply the same standard of judgement to them? The only reliable source of information about Bruce Lee's fighting ability are those skilled individuals who trained with him, or felt him apply technique. You can believe what they say or trust speculations. (I am aware that Joe Lewis has made some statements about Lee that seem to contradict with each other) Years ago, I didn't believe some of what I heard about the Gracies and Brazilian jujitsu. After seeing and feeling application of it, I am now a believer. Lee's student Bob Bremer is one of many who stated "Bruce would make a believer out of you". Best wishes.

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#190790 - 11/18/05 07:07 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: mike_p]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Please don't confuse me with ignorant Bruce Lee worshippers who think he was a superhuman. He was just a man with some exceptional abilities.




Would you agree that his “abilities” are nothing but hearsay? Would you agree to that? Really that’s about all we have, what someone “said” about Bruce Lee.

Perhaps he WAS a great fighter! That’s always a possibility, but we’ll never know. That’s all I’m saying.


Quote:


Bruce is a deceased man, who you probably never met. What are your opinions about all the people I listed (skilled students, other famous martial artists) who studied under him or were amazed by what they saw/felt him do. Add Wally Jay, Leo Fong, Ted Wong and Dan Lee to the list.




I’ve met and trained with Joe Lewis in the past as well as one of his blackbelts. Good stuff there! Quality all the way. Those guys are real fighters. It’s interesting to note that Joe Lewis has the same opinions of Lee that I do…that he was a brilliant, creative thinker………and a “movie star”.

My brother in law was a student of Larry Hartsell in Charlotte, North Carolina during the early 70’s. During that time, they were doing good things. Time moves on. NFL players today are better than NFL players of that era. Martial artists are likewise better today as we’re able to make better use of today’s knowledge and technology. In short, Larry was the man in those days. Meanwhile, other people came in and went beyond what he’d been doing – particularly grappling-wise.

As for the rest of the guys you mentioned, I don’t know them and have never seen their work close up so I’m not inclined to HAVE an opinion.


Quote:


If Bruce was not a great fighter, why did they study with him or write/say such positive things about his skill. Are your opinions as valid as theirs?




My opinion is merely my opinion. I’m simply not buying into the myth and legend. Lee never sparred with anyone for real. That’s all I’m saying. I’m sure he was a capable man and a decent instructor. It’s just that there are a lot of guys who came from that approach that couldn’t/can’t fight their way out of tissue paper. Of course there are exceptions to this rule but….I’ve seen a lot of things from the JKD school of thought that really needed to be thrown out. Trapping for example! Total waste of time done in the traditional (wing chun/Jun Fan) sense.

Quote:


By your own reasoning, masters like G Funakoshi, J Kano, M Oyama, H.I. Cho, Bong Soo Han, Remy Presas, and others never fought anyone of worth either.




They were teachers. Could THEY fight? Who really knows? Can their students fight? Who really knows? Perhaps they can, perhaps they can’t. I KNOW that Kano and his guys did pretty well. We’re talking about Lee at the moment and I’m giving my opinion of HIM presently. We’ll debate the others at another time.


Quote:


Will you apply the same standard of judgement to them?




In THIS day and age, yes. Gone are the days of “legends” without any real credence. Out with the old, in with the new.


Quote:


The only reliable source of information about Bruce Lee's fighting ability are those skilled individuals who trained with him, or felt him apply technique. You can believe what they say or trust speculations.




Its all just hearsay isn’t it?

Quote:


Years ago, I didn't believe some of what I heard about the Gracies and Brazilian jujitsu. After seeing and feeling application of it, I am now a believer.




As am I!

Quote:


Lee's student Bob Bremer is one of many who stated "Bruce would make a believer out of you".




Well, if that were possible, that would be great. I have met several JKD instructors who could NOT make a believer out of me. Perhaps it’s just that Lee was so much better than all of them.

Why did Lee never spar with Lewis despite spending around two years with him? I wonder….


-John

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#190791 - 11/19/05 05:31 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: JKogas]
mike_p Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 17
Jesse Glover said that one thing that bothered Bruce was the thought that he might meet a bigger version of himself. I am sure Joe Lewis was a cut above most of the guys Bruce encountered back in the day, and he definitly was not one to back down from a challenge either. I would think Bruce and Lewis both gained something from their limited contact training sessions; anything else from me would be speculation. It has also been said by some of Lee's students that he was more interested in his own development than teaching, and I think he was sometimes trying to check himself against the skill level of others in different ways. As Clint Eastwood said "a man has to know his limitations." Thanks for your responses, I have enjoyed the discussion.

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#190792 - 12/08/05 08:26 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: Toryu88]
shaokhan79 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/03/05
Posts: 47
Quote:

Just some observations. The name, Jeet Kune Do or Way of the Intercepting Fist. It is interesting that he chose to use the Japanese phrase Do or Way in his style.





sigh.

Do = tao.

originally a chinese word. don't forget the heavy chinese influence in japanese history and words.

i unfortunately did not read all the posts so maybe somebody already correctd this mistake.

all the "do" you see, (kendo, taekwondo...) comes from chinese origin.

regarding the actual thread... meh. not much to add on.

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#190793 - 12/09/05 05:19 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: shaokhan79]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

all the "do" you see, (kendo, taekwondo...) comes from chinese origin.




What about Scooby Do?

Isn't he a great dane?
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#190794 - 12/09/05 10:47 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: trevek]
shaokhan79 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/03/05
Posts: 47
[quote
What about Scooby Do?

Isn't he a great dane?




maybe it's a Mcdojo thing

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#190795 - 12/16/05 03:07 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: Neko456]
Trejo539 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 22
do you know how bruce lee kicked so fast i want to learn

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#190796 - 12/17/05 03:21 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: Trejo539]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Practice!

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#190797 - 12/18/05 09:57 AM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: JKogas]
funstick5000 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
Actually lee did, when he fought the kung fu organisation in america for his right to teach other ethnicitys kung fu in his hun gar school the man who was chosen to fight lee almost certainly would have had to fight a very good fighter. the man would have been unknown but pretty good all the same.
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#190798 - 12/25/05 02:16 AM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: funstick5000]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Why do these conversations exist? How has this one remained so long? Perhaps the naysayers are self concious because they arent as skilled or will never be as famous as Bruce and perhaps you fanatics are simply starstruck by an entertainement machine that is Bruce Lee. is any of it of any consequence? Does it matter at all to your existence as man? What do you people gain by the degredation or the building up of a man who has been gone from this world for 25 years? A shame. Thread Closed.
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