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differences between shaolin and wing chun ?
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differences between shaolin and wing chun ?
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#190783 - 11/17/05 07:27 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: roniwankan]
euan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/05
Posts: 51
Loc: perth scotland
well i know he certainly studiued wing chun and looked into other forms of kung fu aslo boxing(western), karate fencing in his book tao of jeet kune do he also talks of judo and ju jitsu ,his brother (in a tv intervew) tells us bruce lee used to get in many fights in the street to practice his kung fu(this was when he was young in china) i feel that what made bruce lee's jeet kune do concept so effective is the combination of non-telegraphic movments(almost impossible to block,that he aslo improvised for more speed and power) evasive techniques (like slping duking etc)and huge amounts of training and experience his methods were very direct and simple it doesnt really matter what arts he got his inspiration from sorry i went a bit off topic
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#190784 - 11/17/05 07:54 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: euan]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
It's SO very interesting to see people give their opinions on Bruce Lee as a "street fighter". It's amazing to see people talk of how easily "Lee would beat ________" (fill in the blank.

Lee never fought anyone of worth. Lee never even SPARRED anyone of worth. Lee had no fight record and in all honesty was merely a MOVIE STAR who's reputation was based on "performances and demonstrations". He could ill afford to fight anyone as his movie star persona was BASED upon this myth of him as "superhuman".

Lee was a very brilliant man. But he was just that, merely a man like any OTHER man.


-John

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#190785 - 11/17/05 08:32 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: JKogas]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
You heard the man! That's right folks, forget street fighting.... the real money is in MOVIES, or more precisely... ENTERTAINMENT!!!

There's no money in being a really good fighter, on or off the street... There may be good prize money to be won as a modern day gladiator in the cage, but the real money is from broadcasting rights, advertising sponsorships, and merchandizing.

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#190786 - 11/17/05 08:33 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: JKogas]
mike_p Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 17
It is also interesting that people who never trained or sparred with him feel it necessary to say he was nothing special. He had many skilled martial artists as students and friends, and they were all very impressed with him. Jesse Glover, Ed Hart, Jim Demile, Pat Strong, Ed Parker, James Lee, Howard Williams, Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillo, Bob Bremer, Larry Hartsell, H Nishioka, Jhoon Rhee, Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, others....all skilled martial artists that were very impressed with his abilities. If you judge Bruce by his coreographed movie stuff, it is easy to form such invalid conclusions.

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#190787 - 11/17/05 09:03 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: mike_p]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
He was revolutionary in his approach to learning MA. His propositions about MA, openmindedness and training styles are superb. Rarely in the history of the martial arts before Bruce Lee were there people as influential who were open minded about the arts enough to learn more than one art and then advocate learning more than one art.

The Tao of JKD is also an impressive document and his proposition of paring techniques down to their bare fundamentals is, in my opinion, a brilliant one.

Here's a question on the side for all the academics here. If I learn 3-4 arts following Bruce Lee's ideal but not officially learning JKD from a "JKD instructor", can I still call what I've learned JKD or do I have to have a base in JKD as taught by someone with a "lineage" descending to Lee?
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#190788 - 11/17/05 10:28 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: mike_p]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Mike_p wrote:

Quote:

It is also interesting that people who never trained or sparred with him feel it necessary to say he was nothing special.




Define “special”.

For the record, you never heard ME say he wasn’t anything “special”. I just don’t buy into hype, myth and other assorted bullsh*t. That’s pretty much what you get with Bruce Lee.


Quote:


He had many skilled martial artists as students and friends, and they were all very impressed with him. Jesse Glover, Ed Hart, Jim Demile, Pat Strong, Ed Parker, James Lee, Howard Williams, Dan Inosanto, Richard Bustillo, Bob Bremer, Larry Hartsell, H Nishioka, Jhoon Rhee, Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, others....all skilled martial artists that were very impressed with his abilities.




It’s not like you’re going to hear any of them say ANYTHING “bad” about him, now is it?

Except when you get them behind closed doors...


Quote:


If you judge Bruce by his coreographed movie stuff, it is easy to form such invalid conclusions.




I wasn’t judging him by movie work. I was judging him by his factual lack of any proven fight record or, his factual lack of having sparred for real with damned near anyone of "worth".


-John

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#190789 - 11/18/05 09:15 AM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: JKogas]
mike_p Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 17
Please don't confuse me with ignorant Bruce Lee worshippers who think he was a superhuman. He was just a man with some exceptional abilities. Bruce is a deceased man, who you probably never met. What are your opinions about all the people I listed (skilled students, other famous martial artists) who studied under him or were amazed by what they saw/felt him do. Add Wally Jay, Leo Fong, Ted Wong and Dan Lee to the list. If Bruce was not a great fighter, why did they study with him or write/say such positive things about his skill. Are your opinions as valid as theirs? By your own reasoning, masters like G Funakoshi, J Kano, M Oyama, H.I. Cho, Bong Soo Han, Remy Presas, and others never fought anyone of worth either. Will you apply the same standard of judgement to them? The only reliable source of information about Bruce Lee's fighting ability are those skilled individuals who trained with him, or felt him apply technique. You can believe what they say or trust speculations. (I am aware that Joe Lewis has made some statements about Lee that seem to contradict with each other) Years ago, I didn't believe some of what I heard about the Gracies and Brazilian jujitsu. After seeing and feeling application of it, I am now a believer. Lee's student Bob Bremer is one of many who stated "Bruce would make a believer out of you". Best wishes.

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#190790 - 11/18/05 07:07 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: mike_p]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Please don't confuse me with ignorant Bruce Lee worshippers who think he was a superhuman. He was just a man with some exceptional abilities.




Would you agree that his “abilities” are nothing but hearsay? Would you agree to that? Really that’s about all we have, what someone “said” about Bruce Lee.

Perhaps he WAS a great fighter! That’s always a possibility, but we’ll never know. That’s all I’m saying.


Quote:


Bruce is a deceased man, who you probably never met. What are your opinions about all the people I listed (skilled students, other famous martial artists) who studied under him or were amazed by what they saw/felt him do. Add Wally Jay, Leo Fong, Ted Wong and Dan Lee to the list.




I’ve met and trained with Joe Lewis in the past as well as one of his blackbelts. Good stuff there! Quality all the way. Those guys are real fighters. It’s interesting to note that Joe Lewis has the same opinions of Lee that I do…that he was a brilliant, creative thinker………and a “movie star”.

My brother in law was a student of Larry Hartsell in Charlotte, North Carolina during the early 70’s. During that time, they were doing good things. Time moves on. NFL players today are better than NFL players of that era. Martial artists are likewise better today as we’re able to make better use of today’s knowledge and technology. In short, Larry was the man in those days. Meanwhile, other people came in and went beyond what he’d been doing – particularly grappling-wise.

As for the rest of the guys you mentioned, I don’t know them and have never seen their work close up so I’m not inclined to HAVE an opinion.


Quote:


If Bruce was not a great fighter, why did they study with him or write/say such positive things about his skill. Are your opinions as valid as theirs?




My opinion is merely my opinion. I’m simply not buying into the myth and legend. Lee never sparred with anyone for real. That’s all I’m saying. I’m sure he was a capable man and a decent instructor. It’s just that there are a lot of guys who came from that approach that couldn’t/can’t fight their way out of tissue paper. Of course there are exceptions to this rule but….I’ve seen a lot of things from the JKD school of thought that really needed to be thrown out. Trapping for example! Total waste of time done in the traditional (wing chun/Jun Fan) sense.

Quote:


By your own reasoning, masters like G Funakoshi, J Kano, M Oyama, H.I. Cho, Bong Soo Han, Remy Presas, and others never fought anyone of worth either.




They were teachers. Could THEY fight? Who really knows? Can their students fight? Who really knows? Perhaps they can, perhaps they can’t. I KNOW that Kano and his guys did pretty well. We’re talking about Lee at the moment and I’m giving my opinion of HIM presently. We’ll debate the others at another time.


Quote:


Will you apply the same standard of judgement to them?




In THIS day and age, yes. Gone are the days of “legends” without any real credence. Out with the old, in with the new.


Quote:


The only reliable source of information about Bruce Lee's fighting ability are those skilled individuals who trained with him, or felt him apply technique. You can believe what they say or trust speculations.




Its all just hearsay isn’t it?

Quote:


Years ago, I didn't believe some of what I heard about the Gracies and Brazilian jujitsu. After seeing and feeling application of it, I am now a believer.




As am I!

Quote:


Lee's student Bob Bremer is one of many who stated "Bruce would make a believer out of you".




Well, if that were possible, that would be great. I have met several JKD instructors who could NOT make a believer out of me. Perhaps it’s just that Lee was so much better than all of them.

Why did Lee never spar with Lewis despite spending around two years with him? I wonder….


-John

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#190791 - 11/19/05 05:31 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: JKogas]
mike_p Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/16/05
Posts: 17
Jesse Glover said that one thing that bothered Bruce was the thought that he might meet a bigger version of himself. I am sure Joe Lewis was a cut above most of the guys Bruce encountered back in the day, and he definitly was not one to back down from a challenge either. I would think Bruce and Lewis both gained something from their limited contact training sessions; anything else from me would be speculation. It has also been said by some of Lee's students that he was more interested in his own development than teaching, and I think he was sometimes trying to check himself against the skill level of others in different ways. As Clint Eastwood said "a man has to know his limitations." Thanks for your responses, I have enjoyed the discussion.

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#190792 - 12/08/05 08:26 PM Re: Bruce Lee's fights [Re: Toryu88]
shaokhan79 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/03/05
Posts: 47
Quote:

Just some observations. The name, Jeet Kune Do or Way of the Intercepting Fist. It is interesting that he chose to use the Japanese phrase Do or Way in his style.





sigh.

Do = tao.

originally a chinese word. don't forget the heavy chinese influence in japanese history and words.

i unfortunately did not read all the posts so maybe somebody already correctd this mistake.

all the "do" you see, (kendo, taekwondo...) comes from chinese origin.

regarding the actual thread... meh. not much to add on.

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