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#190624 - 10/03/05 06:14 AM Training for Team Kata
znra251 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 39
Advice please!!!! three of us are planning to enter as a team in competition at a series of national events this year. individually we're pretty good, medals at national level competitions, good knowledge of the katas etc. But we have never trained as a team before and are struggling to devise ways of training effetively as a unit, getting timing together and techniques similar.

any adive would be greatly appreciated if you have any experience in team kata (training or competing)

thanks

gary
www.karateonline.org


Edited by znra251 (10/03/05 06:16 AM)

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#190625 - 10/03/05 11:34 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA


First, I consider "team" kata to be an seriously horrible and grotesque pastime of the same wretched ilk as "music" kata.

Its not an activity suited for serious people, and it make the rest of us and martial arts in general look bad.

Its stuff like that that the general public see's and then starts laughing at, its stuff like that they point to as being "proof" that kata sucks and has no practical application, its stuff like that causes embaressment for us all.

Just my opinion--and worth exactly what you paid for it--which is 0.

That being said however, the best thing to do is PRACTICE--alot--then practice MORE.

The hardest thing to do is get several people all moving at the same speed and with the same timimg.

Break it down to just a few movements at at time--don't try and do the whole kata at once--just a few moves.
Get those "clocked" all at the same pace and same intensity--then do a few more-then get those "clocked" then add a few more--until thge whole kata is pretty much identical.

It will take quite a while to do--but the result is usually pretty solid.

I would also advise using ALOT of videotape--tape each practice--the camara will catch what your eyes miss.

If your going to do something--you should do you best.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#190626 - 10/03/05 12:46 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: cxt]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Team Kata???? Isn't that done in the water with those silly nose plug thingys???
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#190627 - 10/03/05 01:40 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
my serious advice is to ask this question in a more appropriate forum, such as:
http://www.dance-forums.com/

there is nothing synchronous about fighting, therefore your question is not about fighting arts. You need a dancing instructors advice for dancing/performing arts. They may even be able to suggest matching costumes for your routines.

BTW...your website: I had a look at some of the kata links. you had shotokan versions representing goju kata. I can't stress enough that if you 'shotokan-ize' goju kata...you can no longer call it goju and it probably shouldn't be categorized there.
Taking a goju kata, putting on long stances on changing the circular to linear removes 90% of what defines goju as a fighting system.
Your intentions are decent enough, I'm sure...but maybe you aren't really qualified yet to categorize stuff you find on the web...thereby making your resource a worse source than nothing at all. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just being truthful.

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#190628 - 10/03/05 03:19 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Kintama]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Team Kata or more accurately Group Kata is a very Okinawan concept that ought to be important in serious training groups.

Of course the idea isn’t to win trophies for looking good, per sea, but why is looking good a crime?

First all serious Okinawan karate-ka participated in public demonstrations of their art, that let their and their students skills be shown. This would reflect pride in ones art. Music wasn’t unknown either, as there were public demonstrations of the old Okinawan dances with martial intent. Time change as do the venue’s but any serious school that does not include serious group kata training is missing some very important opportunites in students development.

Among the reasons:
1. Group kata are a good tool for basic form technique, timing and power development. The group helps the students find their beginning performance, and as the group becomes more proficient the skills involve will increase.
2. Advanced group performance helps set the ‘standard’ energy release in the students kata. The group standard once met, perhaps in 8 to 10 years, can be the starting point towards developing the student’s individual kata standard. This involves long term training for the most serious students (say 10 to 15 years).
3. But more than energy development, group kata become a sense development tool. In order for the group to move to higher levels of performance, sight and hearing must increase exponentially. Group performance is not dance, the goal is controlled group performance, and it is each members responsibility to use their senses to stay in unison. Failure of one is failure of the entire group. Sense awareness development is one of the larger goals in team kata.
4. When group kata are done with the group facing different directions during the performance, even touch and body conditioning can be involved, where simultaneous strikes are arm conditioning tools.
5. At its highest levels group kata becomes a duel of senses. Senior students try to consciously take control of the group or trick each other out, while everyone else is trying to remain in harmony, and the role can keep changing. This involves more serious sense awareness ability.

Using group performance, IMO, is one of the highest level training tools available for an instructor, and it is not a short term tool.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#190629 - 10/03/05 03:51 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I've swallowed my foot on these subjects every time they came up. music/dance/performance etc.

somehow, all of the images you invoked in your post Victor, are not the same images I imagined gary was talking about.

I could be wrong, but my impression was that gary is talking about a modern-day vender-sponsored plastic trophy-centric competition...but that could have been my cynical side impressing upon me...OMG...am...I...getting... bitter?

serious sidenote inquiry. I would love to see kata and/or martial arts presented in a culturaly historic sense such as traditional dance, music ...if anyone ever knows of a non-competitive event such as this in the new england area, I'd love to know about it.

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#190630 - 10/03/05 06:06 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Victor, as always your posts have drawn positive light on a subject that I'd otherwise considered to be a negative aspect of the art.

I've gotta say I do agree with Kin, I suspect very few train their group kata in the spirit you outlined.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#190631 - 10/03/05 07:00 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Gavin]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Ed/Gavin,

I understand the initial reluctance to look at team kata but I suppose it depends on one's own experiences. I began team kata for a demonstration when I was a beginner, and all of the layers I've discussed, and more, have come into play at different times in my teaching.

But much texture of the arts has been ignored, often because classes get too big, and developing advanced layers of training get left behind.

Group kata is a beginner constant in my program, and the advanced uses move in and out of various students' studies, depending on where people are.

Dan Smith of the Seibukan has described how Senior Instructors on Okinawa use this as sort of an awareness challenge match too.

My opinion, serious team kata (for competition) requires first a very good instructor to evaluate and lead the team's development, to either the highest performer's level for the entire group, and/or push the entire group higher. Second a serious commitment to spend years of hard work to excell at the highest levels.

Just a few folks to try and get together will not get where this training could go. If you can't push youself to make the world's best look like dog-meat, it's not worth the time, and if you do, then something's cooking.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#190632 - 10/03/05 07:58 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Victor Smith]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
Victor

Good point.

When I think team kata--I always envision a group of folks in wild uniforms at the nearest open tournament.
Working acrobatics to the "Mortal Kombat" soundtrack.

And that may not be a fair "pigeon hole."
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#190633 - 10/03/05 08:29 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: cxt]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Your impression is fair, for those instances (and I prefer a tastefully metallic green gi for such demonstrations anyway, with matching paisley obi - always tastefull).

But just because something can be 'bent' doesn't mean it doesn't have great merit. But to my experience rarely are group and team kata training taken to its best values.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#190634 - 10/03/05 09:20 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Victor Smith]
znra251 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 39
There are a couple of things i'd just like to say about team kata.

Firstly, it is a serious and difficult part of training. This is not three people doing a dance to music or anything like this as some people seem to think. This is a performance by a team of three of a traditional karate kata, chosen from the WKF major kata list (www.wkf.net - this is a major traditional world body, not some pissy little freestyle tournament!) the criteria for judgeing the kata are exactly the same as in individual, just that the competitors must be in time with each other.

For what its worth we will be competing in plain white gi's with an association logo and possible a manufacturers crest on the back of the neck, none of these green and blue multiple stripes numbers i'm affraid!

The type of competitions we will be entering are things like the KUGB student championships (KUGB are the biggest traditional shotokan organisation in UK formerly part of the JKA), the KUGB Nationals, The British Universities Championship, Welsh Open, British Open (possibly) and the AMA internationals. no freestyle and no music.

I'm not quite sure why everyone has such a negative opinion of team kata, perhaps it doesn't resemble a fight all the time, but then hey, why don't we all go and become kick-boxers/boxers, get to do a lot of fighting there. The reality is most people like to claim they train like a fight and yet really they just train imitating a fight in some way without understanding it.

Which brings me on to my second point - Team Kata requires a competitor to perform to a high standard with severe constraints (ie 2 other people to synchronise with)

Having been in a fair few violent situations (not necessarily fights), usually stood by the door of some shithole, i have learned that a fight where you are free to move, strike and react in an uninhibited way NEVER occurs. Walls, glasses, bystanders, other people looking to get involved, these factors often make you think and correct positions, perhaps not take an oppotunity to strike etc. Team kata constrains a competitor in this way, it teaches discipline, comitment, stamina and awareness, Zanchin. Awareness of the two other members of a team is a similar sort of awareness to say knowing what the other members of a door team are doing, knowing where a violent persons friends are, knowing where you cant move to and knowing when you cant move

This was actually a serious question which three serious and commited martial arts students had hoped might get an informed response (Thank you Victor, your advice was helpful and insightful. I didn't know team kata had this kind of history)

If you dont like team kata go away and don't reply, afterall, the question was how to train for it, not discuss the relative merits of it.

Also, if anyone is interested have a look at the videos on the former world champion Junior Lefevre's website www.jutsko.com - this is the type of team kata we do, not some dance. (Worth remembering Junior has been world, european and Belgian Kumite champion on numerous occasisions and still thinks team kata has something to offer!!! (Don't think he just wants medal, he's got bucketfuls!

Anyone with serious advice or questions please continue this thread, otherwise, go and discuss beating people up or training in another thred

gary

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#190635 - 10/03/05 09:52 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Gary,
Come on.Everything within the forum is up for discussion. Your idea of team kata sounds fine to me,but the only exposure I've had with it is XMA junk,not good.
I don't feel you were attacked persoanlly,but everythings merit is in question on these boards,and rightly so I think.
I'm glad you enjoy what you are doing and that's all that really matters.Your response was overly defensive I think.Kind of like the guy who keeps starting all of the pro tkd threads.Who cares.
I like the info from Victor as well,interesting.

Just practice Kanku dai and enpi together over and over,videotape it,critique any mistakes and do it again.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#190636 - 10/04/05 07:26 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
WKF team kata is serious sport.
Kata allowed are available in a list (tokui list) including the traditional kata of the 4 main Japanese karate styles recognised by WKF (Shotokan, Wado ryu, Goju ryu, Shito ryu). In the past, interpretations of other than these 4 styles were allowed (Sakomoto - Ruei Ryu) do not know if this is still the case.
In finals, bunkai(3) have to be demonstrated of the presented kata (one criterium is effectivenes and understanding of shown techniques).
Coordination and level of execution is important and judges are instructed to focus on left or right corner person in comparison to front person to make decision (usually front man is the best in executing the selected kata, so have to focus the rear persons). If coordination is off, you are lost, so video taping performance in training is good training reference. If execution level differs individually, you'll have a problem too. Execution level should be simular (better 3 at same level of display than one excellent and 2 sloppy, judges will notice).
Timing signals after hajime are forbidden, so no hard breathing or sound or stomping to indicate cadance or pauze in between techniques (judges are trained to see this).

Good luck.

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#190637 - 10/04/05 07:28 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Gary, I too feel that your attack was a little unjustified, especially when both myself and Kin said that we understood the new light shed on group practice via Victors and additionally by yours. The only exposure I've had of group kata has been of the same kind as Sanchin31's. Unless I'd aired my views on the subject, I would not have been enlightend to the higher purpose of those.

So mine wasn't an attack on you personally, but those who I feel make a mockery of the fighting arts which I study, if you practice in the same vein as the likes of XMA, then yes it was definately targeted at you. However from your post it seems like you are training for the purposes mentioned by Victor, so hats off to you mate.

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#190638 - 10/04/05 08:43 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Gavin]
znra251 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 39
sorry if it seemed like my last post was an attack but i find it rather irritating to be criticised for something so different to what i am actually doing, because people simply dont understand it or haven't been exposed to it.

Hopefully when karate is accepted as an olympic sport (next 20 years hopefully!!) then real team kata may generate an audience and people will be more aware of it, rather than xma or all this BS.

Sorry if my post was harsh, i just wish people would understand before they criticise.

thanks

gary

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#190639 - 10/04/05 10:03 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts

I've seen the videos on the website you provided.

As ignorant as I am of some of the benefits pointed out in this thread... in the videos, I see many signs of changes to the original kata in order to make them more visually appealing. stances were lengthened, techniques over exagurated, vein-popping kiai's, etc.

It's the criteria of the judging that I am questioning, not the practitioners. The practictioners are just performing to an arbitrary judging standard, which has placed superficial movement exactness first and have eliminated from the criteria a displayed grasp of the kata's technique principles. I'm sure many of the participants eventually run into the question 'is there nothing more to kata?' and either eventually seek out instruction in the applied application of the movements they know so well, or they gather their trophies and retire by 30.

If someone of a few decades of experience were to perform a kata straight out of a Seito M. O. Shorin school, would they even have a chance at competitions like this? no, because despite the skill displayed within the kata, it just wouldn't look as pretty. If you put the cutest little mutt in a dog show, the poor little guy wouldn't win because his trot was perhaps lopsided a bit. It's this unnatural judging of exactness that I disagree with. It cultivates an imperfect perfection... 'Overbread Art' if you will.
The problem is in grading...for example, how do you grade someones proficiency in their utilization of hara in techniques? and could you ever find judges to agree? I suspect it would be difficult in finding qualified judges/sensei that would even find merit in comparing people's kata with one another. to do so, removes the internal personalization of kata and rather stresses the external appearance. the participants must train to meet this criteria...performance over substance.

I'm not trying to talk anyone out of doing what they love to do, I'm not sure what I'm trying to do - I guess just voicing a reminder to younger people who do these competitions to just realize there are other parts to the MA world that are worth investigating when they tire of competing....the effects of which are much longer lasting and profoundly deeper than receiving a trophy.

sorry for posting my opposing view, I have that right...I also have the right to be wrong. It's the only way we learn.

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#190640 - 10/04/05 10:46 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Kintama]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
"Changes to the original kata". That's a subjective statement as there is no norm to original. Competition is a concensus on what is accepted as "good" performance.
The focus in kata competition is to perform kata in order to win the competition. The theatrical performance must be within limits to what judges allow. But generally there are no bonusses for good theatrical performance. On the other hand, what is the expression of somebody in utter concentration and awareness (zanshin) ?
Many MA trained their appearnce as to intimidate their opponents. I've read many accounts that Miyagi was very initmidating during training and some students could not look into his eyes.
On the other hand, it is said that the ultimate fighting stance is no stance and a apparent relaxed state.

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#190641 - 10/04/05 11:06 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
znra251

Yes I did come down rather harshly on team kata.

BUT--I ALSO GAVE YOU SOME SOLID TIPS AND ADVICE.

As an aside--I seriously hope karate will never become an olympic sport.
The standardization of the art to fit an "olympic" model will do great harm to one of karates biggest strengths.

What you need to understand is that many people have strong opinions about the path that karate should be taking.

And people have strong opinions about their karate--not surprised that folks were tough.

Speaks very well of you that you gave what you got--and in a polite and well-thought out response.

You have NOTHING to say your "sorry" for--least not to me.


Edited by cxt (10/04/05 11:08 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#190642 - 10/04/05 11:49 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: CVV]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

"Changes to the original kata". That's a subjective statement as there is no norm to original.



absolutely true. my bad. I usually say in quotes 'original'. words like that are troubling... like 'traditional', 'old-school' etc.

not only subjective, but relative to the date they are spoken. That wordage is also a little suggestive as well...almost insinuating that the speaker has the answers or 'better' answers. I suppose with some things I do come across that way...it's when I forget to realize that people often have different goals, so of course the answers will be different. sorry to derail from the original question.

in all seriousness, if you wanted tips on how to train for sychronicity...why WOULDN'T you ask a related field of study/Art ? people improve their throws from Judo and ground game with BJJ, etc. can you imagine the principles you could apply if you talked with a broadway choreographer? I'm dead serious.

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#190643 - 10/04/05 03:33 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Kintama]
znra251 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 39
Quote:


I've seen the videos on the website you provided.

As ignorant as I am of some of the benefits pointed out in this thread... in the videos, I see many signs of changes to the original kata in order to make them more visually appealing. stances were lengthened, techniques over exagurated, vein-popping kiai's, etc.




affraid the long stances are just an (essential) part of the shotokan style, as opposed to say goju or wado with shorter stances.

vein popping kias! depends what the aim of a kia is, if it intends to be intimidating then the louder and more threatening the better,

As for the Belgian Team (its them in the video) changing techniques to be more visually appealing i wouldn't agree. The kata is performed almost exactly as Sensei Nakayama presents in the JKA Best Karate Series. As Chief Instructor of the JKA he a an authority on Shotokan Kata, as well as an original student of Funakoshi Sensei (i believe)

Perhaps the only change is from a knee raise and pivot to a slow reverse cresent kick, although i think this has probably always been the ideal, just few people have both the flexibility and balance which this team do.

The criteria for judging are also relatively broad, with the exeption of the opening round shitei (compulsory) kata then WKF rules permit variations based on style and association, the only requirement is it doesn't differ significantly from the 'general' kata. Judges decide on a number of issues which kata was the 'best' the techniques themselves are of course part of it, but much more important aspects are considered.

Check out the actual criteria, i think they're available in the kata regulations section of the WKF website, www.WKF.net

gary

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#190644 - 10/04/05 03:35 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Kintama]
znra251 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 39
Quote:

can you imagine the principles you could apply if you talked with a broadway choreographer? I'm dead serious.




choreographer is a much better term than dance teacher!!!!! it is choreographed, but must still be a true representation of the kata. i'll give the idea some thought
thanks

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#190645 - 10/04/05 04:10 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
lol...funny how wording can be the same yet very different. thanks for challenging my sarcasm and explaining what you do.

good luck. give 'em hell.

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#190646 - 10/04/05 05:40 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Kintama]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Personally i love watching team kata performed to a high standard - i think its brill, extremly skillfull and nice on the eye.

would i train in it myself - no way (unless sensei 'suggested' I did), for me kata is personal and thats that, the moment I try and 'time in' with others im losing the fact that my kata needs to work for me, and thats why i train, for a degree of practical application and understanding.

Yep im narrow minded, but im happy!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#190647 - 10/05/05 08:57 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:


The criteria for judging are also relatively broad, with the exeption of the opening round shitei (compulsory) kata then WKF rules permit variations based on style and association, the only requirement is it doesn't differ significantly from the 'general' kata. Judges decide on a number of issues which kata was the 'best' the techniques themselves are of course part of it, but much more important aspects are considered.





Be carefull with the changes. The WKF kata rules state :
"Kata will be in accordance with the schools of Karate-do recognised by the WKF based on the Goju, Shito, Shoto, and Wado systems."
On high level (EK/WK ...) performance of kata according to e.g. Seito Matsumura orthodox shorin ryu or Uechi-ryu are not considered within the norm of the above rule.
Even on national level,in Belgium, there are discussions regading variations in executions by certain associations. The norm is generally set to what is accepted by JKF, wich does not include styles like Uechi ryu and the various shorin schools on Okinawa let alone lesser known styles like Kingai ryu or Kojo ryu.

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#190648 - 10/05/05 09:46 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: CVV]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
interesting CVV-thanks for pointing that out. basically, they want to see 'Japanized' kata is what they are trying to say? ah, so desu ka.

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#190649 - 10/05/05 11:55 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Kintama]
znra251 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 39
i can see how some styles (smaller?) are sort of discriminated against. The rules are limited to these four styles, i think, because it is easier to judge in a more objective manner if the styles are limited. It would probably be harder to say what uechi-ryu or shorin-ryu katas are acceptable, what defines their styles etc. (maybe i'm wrong here).

Perhaps these styles shoud see it as a challenge to unite themselves, become more organised, the WKF are pen-pushers after all and present a list of their standard katas, with a standard interpretation, so that deviation can be kept within necessary limits.

I hope we witness other styles integrating into the WKF rules as i think it would only push the standards of competition higher.

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#190650 - 10/05/05 12:13 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
There are some 'styles' (I kindof dislike that word now) where the objective is to find your own way within the context of the principles taught and developed upon. In other words, they stress the principles of the system and not so much the exactness of the mechanics...since that 'exactness' will be different for everyone.
The question is, how would you judge someone's grasp of principles?

some Arts were never meant to be comparitively judged. IMO

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#190651 - 10/05/05 10:04 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Kintama]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
To get back to team kata. The group kata training practices I was describing are in large part likely ones few but I do, because of my own research. The truth is they're not a constant practice, but used as tools in different stages of students studies. A large part of the value comes at different dan training stages too.

But as for competition kata, at the world events. They are controlled by a few organizations. Their organization their rules, and their choice of kata. There are other performance venues however, if that is the goal.

As for Mat. Seito not being competitive, first find a group of Seito dans who will trian their tails off long enough and then let's see what's competitive. BTW they don't exist in many places.

The European ones are nice, I've seen Japanese Shito Ryu competition teams (both male and then female)doing one their Crane forms who are much better.

Take 'Jr. L.". He as superior body movement and control and when he choses great power release and speed. But, IMO and by my own competition standards I'd give him a zero.

Personally I will no longer judge forms but by my own standards, and only award scores of 0 or 10.

As I see it if a form is 100% martial then its a 10. If there is one technique that isn't martial then its a zero. I don't score consolation prizes for people who died because they blew it.

Admittedly 'Jr. L" is far superior to me, he should be after how his father had him trained.

But look at his forms closely, as great as they are, some of his striking is inferior, just putting the arm out there. I think this is because using full power strikes might interfere with the following body movements (a much larger problem in Chinese WuShu competition).

Movements done for flow, stickiness or delibeate slowness are not a problem. But some of his punches are inferior.

It's not style, its martial intent.

Hey I'm not good, but I know what good should be, and just sticking the arms out isn't a punch in my book.

It would take him little to move to a 10 score in my book but as I look at his forms, that's the reality of what I see.

And he is good, just not right, IMO.

So a super Seito (or pick any traditional Okinawan style) is definatively competitive material. Depending on the venue of course.
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#190652 - 10/06/05 07:43 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

i can see how some styles (smaller?) are sort of discriminated against. The rules are limited to these four styles, i think, because it is easier to judge in a more objective manner if the styles are limited. It would probably be harder to say what uechi-ryu or shorin-ryu katas are acceptable, what defines their styles etc. (maybe i'm wrong here).

Perhaps these styles shoud see it as a challenge to unite themselves, become more organised, the WKF are pen-pushers after all and present a list of their standard katas, with a standard interpretation, so that deviation can be kept within necessary limits.

I hope we witness other styles integrating into the WKF rules as i think it would only push the standards of competition higher.




This is going a bit off the orginal intent of the thread but it has to get off my chest.

I think the current kata policy of the WKF is a disaster for karate. The unification and standardization of kata is completely against the individual development cycle of a karateka. I love the diversity in execution of the several 'styles' and performers. Kata is the hart of karate and any system that embraces the study of MA through the performance and analyse of kata should be recognised when the apllication presented has value for self defense and self development according to the spirit of the old ways.
By installing the shitei I and II kata, the dynamic and vivid character of karate is hindered through teachers that focus only on the sport format execution of kata. If WKF/JKF stay on this track of unification/standardization into one karate system, the karate curriculum will lose many applications and methods inherent to it's original intent (self defense and self development).
As a consequence of the JKF policy regarding shitei kata, the Jundokan broke with JKF (through leaving OGKK in 2004).

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#190653 - 10/06/05 09:49 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Just to clarify, maybe I read your post wrong, but I wasn't saying this or that wasn't competitive material, I was saying that the arbitrary rules of existing tounament frameworks do not allow 'native' style forms which (apparently) have not had the Japan stamp of approval. I think the judging framework is the limiting factor....not the Arts people do. to make an analogy: comparitive judging is often digital, individual Art is always analog.

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#190654 - 10/06/05 10:09 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Kintama]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Ed,

I understand your point, the WKU is limiting themselves to their own group. On the whole that's what groups do. Depending where you live in the world they may be a big deal, but from where I'm at its a very small issue.

In fact the longer I look there's a great deal about most of the public 'Japanese' karate groups that doesn't interest me in the least, for their practices have no relevance on what I focus on what Karate represents.

So I note their skill when shown, admiring skill, and really don't lose sleep about the rest.

Such groups really only represent themselves.


Edited by Victor Smith (10/06/05 10:10 AM)
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#190655 - 10/06/05 01:12 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
znra

Precisely why I seriously hope karate never makes it into the Olympics.

One of the very real strengths of karate has been that its an "umbralla" term that reperesents many different "styles" and appraochs.

These differences are what makes karate as a group strong.

The "standardization" you speak of would eliminate those differences.
Make everyone "look" the same.

And that would be a tragic loss.

Whats the old Gilbert and Sullivan line?--"If everyone is somebody than no-ones anybody."

Something like that.
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#190656 - 10/06/05 09:17 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: cxt]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
It's about competition not true standardization.

And don't fret about the olympics, whether karate is added or not. The media won't allow it shown on tv anyway.

For the past 4 or 5 olympics the amount of coverage martial events (shooting, archery, wrestling, judo, tkd, etc.) is almost non existant. The appear to have worked up the demographics of their desired audience, and there's no place in it for violence. The amount of coverage the 'martial' olypmics shows is almost non-existant. So if karate gets there nobody will really see it anyway.

On the other hand the next Olympics you'll see WuShu to the nth degree. It's flashy, it has all the 'gymnastics' the desired demographic audience wants to see. It's exotic and for all those reasons, WuShu will be the new 'wonderkind'.

I guarantee it, and that's what everyone commercial will be shifting too..... Rots of Ruck to them...
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#190657 - 10/07/05 01:48 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Bugger all boxing as well...

"Rotsaruck" - love that one, always make sure to say it before a grading or tournament.

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#190658 - 10/07/05 03:07 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Mark Hill]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts

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#190659 - 10/07/05 08:15 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Kintama]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

future of team kata:
http://www.lookatentertainment.com/v/v-206.htm




Loved it! Isn't that what we all want?
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#190660 - 10/07/05 08:57 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: SANCHIN31]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
now...lets really cause a stir that begs the question:

.................Is that Art?...................

Why or why not.

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#190661 - 10/08/05 02:19 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Kintama]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Lousy shiko-dachi, good heisoku-dachi.
Not much power display and monotoom rhytm.
Good synchronization(must have trained a lot together).
Overal performance weak (no martial intent).

It is art for those who can appriciate the symbolism and esthetics of the performance and objects. To be of any value for me, as an art, there has to be a "geniousity".
I would consider the robot a masterpiece of art, not the programming of the dance as such.

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#190662 - 10/08/05 10:17 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: CVV]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I must respectfully disagree.

That is exactly how I would see martial intent contained in dance. Everything those robots are doing, including the fan, is martial. They're just concealing the speed they would apply because of Isacc Asmov's 3 laws, for if you saw what they could do it would harm your pysche, and the 3 laws covering the development of all positronic brains, does not permit a robot by action or inaction to harm a human.

I'm afraid we're all obsolete.

Unless you meet an old robot A-1 who can train you to become Magnus robot fighter.

Proving I've read too much science fiction (Asmov) for decades, and then too many comic books....

The future is here now.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#190663 - 10/09/05 02:17 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
It'll save a fortune on trophies.

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#190664 - 10/09/05 04:14 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Kintama]
Gankaku Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 26
Well anyways back on subject.

Break the kata apart and train only on a section at a time. working on timing and of course try to get your breathing in sync as well. then in the last month before competition start working on putting the whol kata together. but from the very first day you start to put your kata together start working on the Bunki section. it can be very dangerous if someone should mess up. start training that slow then work up to full speed power and focus, over a few months.
And for the love of god dont perform Unsu everyone does that kata and Im getting really sick of seeing it. Im sure the judges are.

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#190665 - 10/10/05 11:28 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Victor Smith]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA

Victor Smith

Excellent point--sadly enough.

Wish it were otherwise, but your rational of the Olympics and what sports get the coverage seems dead spot on.

Stayed up very LATE (or very early depending on your viewpoint) the last Olymics just to catch some of the "other" sport that don't get much coverage.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#190666 - 10/19/05 12:04 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
dogfacedboyuk1 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 116
Quote:

Quote:


affraid the long stances are just an (essential) part of the shotokan style, as opposed to say goju or wado with shorter stances.





This is something that really bugs me. Has anybody ever read Funakoshis 20 precepts? If so you should have read one that states "Beginners must master low stance and posture, natural body positions are for the advanced." How often do you see any high grade in a natural position? Ask yourselves honestly here. In my 16 years (in the KUGB) training I have NEVER seen any high grade train in a high, natural stance. This is something I started to do with high grade classes I taught just before I retired from my karate training and I don't think my sensei approved, but hey I was only teaching as sensei Funakoshi said (and I agree with his precept on this to).

Maybe you guys entering the team kata could try doing it in a high stance and see how well you do. I don't reckon the judges would love you for it.

Seriously though, although I hate team kata and think it is completely pointless (I would have been happy to take the time to listen more to peoples opinions and be open to argument but as I am no longer training I do not wish to) good luck with your training and at the event on the day itself!

To be honest I think even individual kata competitions are fairly pointless. Kata is a battle with yourself that is ongoing throughout all aspects of your training (of which all come from the kata core) and as such cannot be accurately judged by someone just watching and scoring you on your performance of techniques or comparing your performance to that of a fellow competitor. This opinion of what kata is all about probably sounds like text book bull crap blah blah blah - and I thought it was myself when I was a low grade reading about the nature of kata, but I now know different and I believe it.

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