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#190644 - 10/04/05 03:35 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Kintama]
znra251 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 39
Quote:

can you imagine the principles you could apply if you talked with a broadway choreographer? I'm dead serious.




choreographer is a much better term than dance teacher!!!!! it is choreographed, but must still be a true representation of the kata. i'll give the idea some thought
thanks

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#190645 - 10/04/05 04:10 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
lol...funny how wording can be the same yet very different. thanks for challenging my sarcasm and explaining what you do.

good luck. give 'em hell.

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#190646 - 10/04/05 05:40 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Kintama]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Personally i love watching team kata performed to a high standard - i think its brill, extremly skillfull and nice on the eye.

would i train in it myself - no way (unless sensei 'suggested' I did), for me kata is personal and thats that, the moment I try and 'time in' with others im losing the fact that my kata needs to work for me, and thats why i train, for a degree of practical application and understanding.

Yep im narrow minded, but im happy!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#190647 - 10/05/05 08:57 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:


The criteria for judging are also relatively broad, with the exeption of the opening round shitei (compulsory) kata then WKF rules permit variations based on style and association, the only requirement is it doesn't differ significantly from the 'general' kata. Judges decide on a number of issues which kata was the 'best' the techniques themselves are of course part of it, but much more important aspects are considered.





Be carefull with the changes. The WKF kata rules state :
"Kata will be in accordance with the schools of Karate-do recognised by the WKF based on the Goju, Shito, Shoto, and Wado systems."
On high level (EK/WK ...) performance of kata according to e.g. Seito Matsumura orthodox shorin ryu or Uechi-ryu are not considered within the norm of the above rule.
Even on national level,in Belgium, there are discussions regading variations in executions by certain associations. The norm is generally set to what is accepted by JKF, wich does not include styles like Uechi ryu and the various shorin schools on Okinawa let alone lesser known styles like Kingai ryu or Kojo ryu.

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#190648 - 10/05/05 09:46 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: CVV]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
interesting CVV-thanks for pointing that out. basically, they want to see 'Japanized' kata is what they are trying to say? ah, so desu ka.

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#190649 - 10/05/05 11:55 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Kintama]
znra251 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 39
i can see how some styles (smaller?) are sort of discriminated against. The rules are limited to these four styles, i think, because it is easier to judge in a more objective manner if the styles are limited. It would probably be harder to say what uechi-ryu or shorin-ryu katas are acceptable, what defines their styles etc. (maybe i'm wrong here).

Perhaps these styles shoud see it as a challenge to unite themselves, become more organised, the WKF are pen-pushers after all and present a list of their standard katas, with a standard interpretation, so that deviation can be kept within necessary limits.

I hope we witness other styles integrating into the WKF rules as i think it would only push the standards of competition higher.

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#190650 - 10/05/05 12:13 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
There are some 'styles' (I kindof dislike that word now) where the objective is to find your own way within the context of the principles taught and developed upon. In other words, they stress the principles of the system and not so much the exactness of the mechanics...since that 'exactness' will be different for everyone.
The question is, how would you judge someone's grasp of principles?

some Arts were never meant to be comparitively judged. IMO

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#190651 - 10/05/05 10:04 PM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Kintama]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
To get back to team kata. The group kata training practices I was describing are in large part likely ones few but I do, because of my own research. The truth is they're not a constant practice, but used as tools in different stages of students studies. A large part of the value comes at different dan training stages too.

But as for competition kata, at the world events. They are controlled by a few organizations. Their organization their rules, and their choice of kata. There are other performance venues however, if that is the goal.

As for Mat. Seito not being competitive, first find a group of Seito dans who will trian their tails off long enough and then let's see what's competitive. BTW they don't exist in many places.

The European ones are nice, I've seen Japanese Shito Ryu competition teams (both male and then female)doing one their Crane forms who are much better.

Take 'Jr. L.". He as superior body movement and control and when he choses great power release and speed. But, IMO and by my own competition standards I'd give him a zero.

Personally I will no longer judge forms but by my own standards, and only award scores of 0 or 10.

As I see it if a form is 100% martial then its a 10. If there is one technique that isn't martial then its a zero. I don't score consolation prizes for people who died because they blew it.

Admittedly 'Jr. L" is far superior to me, he should be after how his father had him trained.

But look at his forms closely, as great as they are, some of his striking is inferior, just putting the arm out there. I think this is because using full power strikes might interfere with the following body movements (a much larger problem in Chinese WuShu competition).

Movements done for flow, stickiness or delibeate slowness are not a problem. But some of his punches are inferior.

It's not style, its martial intent.

Hey I'm not good, but I know what good should be, and just sticking the arms out isn't a punch in my book.

It would take him little to move to a 10 score in my book but as I look at his forms, that's the reality of what I see.

And he is good, just not right, IMO.

So a super Seito (or pick any traditional Okinawan style) is definatively competitive material. Depending on the venue of course.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#190652 - 10/06/05 07:43 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: znra251]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

i can see how some styles (smaller?) are sort of discriminated against. The rules are limited to these four styles, i think, because it is easier to judge in a more objective manner if the styles are limited. It would probably be harder to say what uechi-ryu or shorin-ryu katas are acceptable, what defines their styles etc. (maybe i'm wrong here).

Perhaps these styles shoud see it as a challenge to unite themselves, become more organised, the WKF are pen-pushers after all and present a list of their standard katas, with a standard interpretation, so that deviation can be kept within necessary limits.

I hope we witness other styles integrating into the WKF rules as i think it would only push the standards of competition higher.




This is going a bit off the orginal intent of the thread but it has to get off my chest.

I think the current kata policy of the WKF is a disaster for karate. The unification and standardization of kata is completely against the individual development cycle of a karateka. I love the diversity in execution of the several 'styles' and performers. Kata is the hart of karate and any system that embraces the study of MA through the performance and analyse of kata should be recognised when the apllication presented has value for self defense and self development according to the spirit of the old ways.
By installing the shitei I and II kata, the dynamic and vivid character of karate is hindered through teachers that focus only on the sport format execution of kata. If WKF/JKF stay on this track of unification/standardization into one karate system, the karate curriculum will lose many applications and methods inherent to it's original intent (self defense and self development).
As a consequence of the JKF policy regarding shitei kata, the Jundokan broke with JKF (through leaving OGKK in 2004).

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#190653 - 10/06/05 09:49 AM Re: Training for Team Kata [Re: Victor Smith]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Just to clarify, maybe I read your post wrong, but I wasn't saying this or that wasn't competitive material, I was saying that the arbitrary rules of existing tounament frameworks do not allow 'native' style forms which (apparently) have not had the Japan stamp of approval. I think the judging framework is the limiting factor....not the Arts people do. to make an analogy: comparitive judging is often digital, individual Art is always analog.

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