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#189557 - 09/28/05 07:59 AM totality
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
So i've been watching MMA competitions like UFC amongst others, and i've been seeing a lot of BJJ experts in the octagon, or at least other "styles" of MA using BJJ techniques. I've been wanting to join a class where they train in a lot of groundwork such as BJJ, but i would like someone to enlighten me beforehand on if there are any classes that not only teach you locks and gaining position, escapes etc. But that also teach you to use all your weapons on the ground. I suppose what i mean is that i don't want to be fighting on the ground for 10mins when i could end it more quickly by going for the eyes or ears or groin. Would a BJJ class have drills that teach this? It sure seems to me that a BJJ fighter would definitely feel in control if he was on top, but if you were in an "anything goes" situation, even if you have "the mount" which seems to be the mother of all ground positions to be in, then there is still a good chance that you could lose.
We don't do much groundwork in my class and i suppose that it would be a good thing to learn nonetheless, But do other systems train for totality on the ground, or is it something i'm going to have to do in my own time?
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#189558 - 09/30/05 05:59 PM Re: totality [Re: jkdwarrior]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
This is a pretty good thread. I enjoy discussing this sort of thing because if handled properly, a lot of learning can come from it.

Let me ask you a question to start things off (then we'll get to the rest of the points of your post): How difficult is it to stick your fingers into someone's eyes?



-John

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#189559 - 10/01/05 02:37 PM Re: totality [Re: JKogas]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
in ground fighting, there are many opportunities to use these kind of tactics. That's just from what i can see as i haven't really done much ground fighting. I may be wrong, but when you look at competitions where a long time is spent on the ground. There are usually many opportunities where the fight could be ended quicker by using one of these tactics. Obviously we can't train or fight in competition and damage ourselves by allowing these techniques, but from what i can see, these could prove to be some of the most important weapons in your arsenal in a real life fight on the ground. I train only for real life situations in mind, but i suppose learning to punch as in certain MA "styles" from a ground position would increase you chances of being successful and would also increase your ability to apply foul tactics from these positions. If i have somebody in, say half guard, it would seem as if they are in an advantageous position. But if i was to grab their ear and twist it off, maybe i would have a bit of a lead. I know in attempting to do so, i would be leaving openings for a good grappler to take advantage of, but the possibility of being able to rip off someone's ear, for me, greatly outweighs the risks taken.
What im saying is that i know that there is a big place for ground fighting in MA, that's why i'm looking for a class that teaches it, but if someone doesn't use these foul tactics, then even a well experienced fighter may get beaten by a street thug. I suppose i could join a BJJ class and then later apply all my moves to what i learn, but i want a class that teaches ground fighting AND foul tactics.
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#189560 - 10/01/05 03:43 PM Re: totality [Re: jkdwarrior]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

...in ground fighting, there are many opportunities to use these kind of tactics. That's just from what i can see as i haven't really done much ground fighting.




Yes, I would agree that there are many opportunities for such attacks (lets refer to them as "Foul Tactics" from here on, which could mean either biting, eye gouging, etc. This will help define succinctly what we're talking about).

There ARE opportunities for such foul tactics on the ground! The person who has the better developed ground game will be able to use these tactics quite often!


Quote:


I may be wrong, but when you look at competitions where a long time is spent on the ground. There are usually many opportunities where the fight could be ended quicker by using one of these tactics.




Yeah, those competitions are sporting events. Both fighters are capable of using foul tactics and although such tactics may not end a fight, they would likely create different reactions perhaps. The competition and the training that goes into it (vale tudo) are merely vehicles for developing these fighters "delivery systems" and other relevent attributes. Plus the training and competitions are a very good thing for developing a healthy sense of what real resistance from your opponent feels like (because you get a feel for what it's like to fight when your opponent is trying his best to knock you out or submit you with joint locks and/or chokes!


Quote:


Obviously we can't train or fight in competition and damage ourselves by allowing these techniques, but from what i can see, these could prove to be some of the most important weapons in your arsenal in a real life fight on the ground. I train only for real life situations in mind, but i suppose learning to punch as in certain MA "styles" from a ground position would increase you chances of being successful and would also increase your ability to apply foul tactics from these positions.





Bingo! Just by training this way, you develop a certain level of experience that isn't as easily developed any other way. Of course in training, no one is really trying to bash their partners heads in (just as you don't really go into the eyes when practicing gouges), but just the resistance of your partner trying to punch you (lightly) or pass your guard as YOU work to strike HIM back and attempt to reverse or submit your opponent will develop a lot of seasoning and experience that is worth more than GOLD when teaching someone self defense and, basically, how to fight!

When you're playing vale tudo/MMA (because that's what we're really doing in practice - no one is fighting for real, although you CAN go as hard as you want to), you learn to control distances and develop a better understanding of positional control. For example, when you're in someone's guard, you learn to both defend from his strikes and attacks while setting up your OWN strikes and escapes OUT of the guard (passes). By playing in this manner, you develop a feel for fighting that I think is very important. Once you have a good feel, you can then use whatever tactics you like - including "foul tactics" to either extricate yourself from a position, cause a reaction that you can capitalize on, or whatever! Without that feel though, you won't have as much of an understanding of the when, where or how to create those types of situations where your attacks would then be optimized!


Quote:


If i have somebody in, say half guard, it would seem as if they are in an advantageous position. But if i was to grab their ear and twist it off, maybe i would have a bit of a lead. I know in attempting to do so, i would be leaving openings for a good grappler to take advantage of, but the possibility of being able to rip off someone's ear, for me, greatly outweighs the risks taken.




Yeah, I know what you mean! It really all comes down to which one of you is the more experienced grappler! It also comes down to the individuals own committment to the fight! Ripping the ear off of one guy might cause him to react in a way that is completely opposite of another guy! One guy may be under the influence of some kind of drug which may drop his pain threshold considerably! Then you might well rip his ear off and nothing happens! BUT (with a pregnant pause here).......if you have spent that time and hard work in developing your technical ability to pass that half guard, then his pain threshold is irrelevent! Because your own fighting ability (game) is based on sound technique, you have the option of using that AND foul tactics, as opposed to "just" foul tactics alone. If that IS all you had to rely on, that person with the heightend pain threshold might not respond to having his ear ripped off.

Also consider something a teacher of mine told me long ago that I think some guys never consider: SOMETIMES foul tactics are NOT a good thing to do from a tactical stand-point because they can cause your opponent to fight with more abandon and more intensity! If you're grappling someone and just trying to control him and not injure him (a mental patient for example), foul tactics may cause this person to start fighting with much more gusto. If you're just trying to tie him up and control him (the main aspect of jiu-jitsu), you've just made your job now that much harder.

On the other hand, when YOUR opponent is trying to go for your eyes, you can (providing you have a solid position of advantage), TRAIN him to stop! You can start playing around HIS eyes when he tries going for yours. Often what will happen is, he'll get that idea that it's not exactly a smart thing to do because you have the dominant position.

It's an interesting thing to consider (foul tactics and when to use them - and when NOT to). It's not as simple as many at first may think - but it's definitely worth the time spent in discussion and training!


Quote:


What im saying is that i know that there is a big place for ground fighting in MA, that's why i'm looking for a class that teaches it, but if someone doesn't use these foul tactics, then even a well experienced fighter may get beaten by a street thug.




It IS possible that a trained fighter could be beaten by a street thug (anything is possible) but against a very skilled jiu-jitsu guy, it isn't likely, especially if the street thug has no understanding of grappling! He likely wouldn't have the balance to initiate his first attack before he gets swept and is now on the bottom.

That said, it's ALWAYS a good idea for a guy studying jiu-jitsu, to put into practice (at times) training against someone going for the eyes, the groin and who is trying to bite them, in order to supplement their training. It's also a good idea to introduce a knife during a grappling match and see what the guys can do! Multiple opponents as well!

I enjoy doing ALL of that! We look at it as play and never take anything too seriously. The training at the same time is very good and very fun!


Quote:


I suppose i could join a BJJ class and then later apply all my moves to what i learn, but i want a class that teaches ground fighting AND foul tactics.




I understand wanting both. Just remember that it's even MORE important to develop that functional delivery system and your ability to fight without foul tactics. When you can fight without foul tactics, adding them into a fight is pretty easy! If you can't fight without foul tactics, foul tactics will not do you as much good - particularly if your opponent is someone who can fight (with and without foul tactics)!

So work on your game without foul tactics, even if you can't find someone who teaches both. Like I said, that's more important, especially as a beginner. Then find those partners who are like minded and work the street/foul tactics.

If you were near me, I'd invite you into my gym and you could do both! Just train and enjoy yourself. Have fun and don't take anything too seriously.

Thanks for sharing your comments!



-John

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#189561 - 10/03/05 09:55 AM Re: totality [Re: JKogas]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
Well there you have it. I hear where you're coming from. I guess i'll join a grappling class even if it doesn't teach exactly what i want, it'll still benefit me enormously.
I'm not a beginner though. I am a very well experienced striker. What i need now is to explore the other aspects of MA and become more rounded. I mean, i have the ability to end an encounter quite easily from a standup position against an untrained or inexperienced person. I just haven't prepared for being taken down. It's not what i would like to happen in a fight, but you can't always get what you want. If i don't train for it and i suddenly find myself there, then i'm in trouble. The only thing i know at the minute is to employ foul tactics. I mean i KNOW what to do, but i'd probably lose agianst someone who has trained predominantly in this position and is comfortable on the ground. Until i learn to fight from the ground, i'm going to do everything i can to keep the fight standing. That's kind of what this thread is about. Totality. Everything that can possibly be included. Does anybody train on the ground and include foul tactics whether in class or in your own time? If not then we'd better start. If i can't do it in class, then i'll most certainly be doing it at home.
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

Top
#189562 - 10/03/05 07:42 PM Re: totality [Re: jkdwarrior]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Well there you have it. I hear where you're coming from. I guess i'll join a grappling class even if it doesn't teach exactly what i want, it'll still benefit me enormously.




Precisely. The better you become, the better your street fighting will become.


Quote:


I'm not a beginner though. I am a very well experienced striker. What i need now is to explore the other aspects of MA and become more rounded. I mean, i have the ability to end an encounter quite easily from a standup position against an untrained or inexperienced person. I just haven't prepared for being taken down. It's not what i would like to happen in a fight, but you can't always get what you want.




Which is the whole reason you train the grappling aspect. If you have developed that good standing game, your ground game isn’t anything you have to “master”. You just have to know enough to stay safe really and get back up to your feet. Of course that takes time and a knowledge of submission and strike defense.


Quote:


If i don't train for it and i suddenly find myself there, then i'm in trouble. The only thing i know at the minute is to employ foul tactics. I mean i KNOW what to do, but i'd probably lose agianst someone who has trained predominantly in this position and is comfortable on the ground. Until i learn to fight from the ground, i'm going to do everything i can to keep the fight standing. That's kind of what this thread is about.




Then you’re on the right track and I have no doubt that you’ll obtain what you’re looking for. You seem to have a great attitude!


Quote:


Totality. Everything that can possibly be included. Does anybody train on the ground and include foul tactics whether in class or in your own time? If not then we'd better start. If i can't do it in class, then i'll most certainly be doing it at home.




I like doing it this way: 90% of the time, we’re using standard MMA-type training. For the last couple of rounds, we add foul tactics (simulating them obviously) so that guys have an understanding of how to defend from these attacks as well as how to attack using them. That way we end the session with a street sense toward everything that we have spent the majority of time training. Seems to work fine.

Good luck!


-John

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