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#189418 - 09/28/05 04:12 PM Re: sport tkd vs street tkd [Re: TKDFighter89]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Olympic TKD is like a spining top once you stop it it falls over. O-TKD vs. Kyoshinkia or Subuki guy would be KO ville for the O-TKD guy, I mean the grab, kicking, elbows (to chest) and knees, sweeps/throws and punch in close. Their use to jamming/sweeping high continous kicks.

Olympic TKD might do well against a point fighter maybe but they kick to the grion and grab kick and punch to the body & head. If it got long maybe the odds would go to the TKDr, maybe head strikes still a surprise for him.

Street TKD is another subject they hit everywhere and do more practicle techniques until they get you hurt, once staggering around they find it hard not to Jump side kick or Jump Back kick (I like this one too if the guys sliding down a wall after a good hand strike). Its just as tough as any art.

Or the Gung-fu, Capioer or Silat guy fighting from the ground O-TKD wouldn't know what to do. Now a Street TKD guy would.

Olympic TKD are conditioned athletics but only in a certain arena.
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#189419 - 09/28/05 05:28 PM Re: sport tkd vs street tkd [Re: Neko456]
TKDFighter89 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/25/05
Posts: 85
JohnL....

I agree Olympic TKD doesnt use ground fighting, throws, or hand techniques but the kicks used in olympic tkd would be effective ina real fight.

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#189420 - 09/28/05 09:39 PM Re: sport tkd vs street tkd [Re: Supremor]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
A) it doesn't matter if your kicks telegraph a little bit, if you randomly kick someone on the street on a whim do you think they are going to stop you from connecting?

B) very few self defense situations will pit you against someone who knows how to stop attacks from a style they don't train in. Not to mention the kind of people who get involved in martial arts usually avoid fighting for stupid reasons in the first place.

c) all this talk about fights going to the ground, being hit with elbows, etc, it's far too involved, come on. The stiffest competition you're likely to come up against is someone slightly bigger than you that at most has a little training in boxing. Anyone who is skilled enough to beat even a novice TKD'ist and still attack someone must be so drunk or high or mentally unstable their technique is likely to be very poor as well. There is the size factor but there is not much you can do about size except hit harder and fight dirtier regardless of the art you study.. Then of course you have multiple opponents but that's something else entirely.

Can anyone even point me to a real fight where an advanced TKD practicioner was attacked by or attacked a good grappler? I have read of numerous stories where TKD practicioners knocked down some rowdy brawlers in a bar, there was a particularly famous story that came from a Korean TKD master in New York City, I believe he's the president of the rotary club in his area now.

street fights and self defence in particular are usually not some kind of slow process of observing a weakness in the opponent and then attacking at the best possible moment. The bad guy is going to attack you with almost no forewarning, whenever he wants and you will need to react. Whatever takes them down is good enough. A kick to the head, chest, whatever if it works. If you don't believe TKD will stop an attacker tell someone to kick you in the head or stomach and get back to me.

Training with points in mind is a sure way to mess yourself up if you need to use your skills in a pinch. If you're used to pulling your kicks and punches you'll very likely do it too when things hit the fan.

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#189421 - 09/29/05 12:23 PM Re: sport tkd vs street tkd [Re: TKDFighter89]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Unfortunately that's not necessarily the case.

Olympic TKD kicks are thrown from a longer kicking distance (Due to the nature of the competition) than SD situations normally occur at.

While I have no doubt that a good MA would adapt this, the assumption that they will work is a fundamentally flawed one.
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#189422 - 09/29/05 12:26 PM Re: sport tkd vs street tkd [Re: paradoxbox]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
I think we are talking in cross purposes here paradoxbox. The question was about street-fighting, what you seem to be talking about is self-defence situations.

I agree that TKD can be very effective for SD, indeed I would not be doing it unless it had an element of SD in it. Now SD techniques have one purpose- giving you the oppurtunity to get away, and TKD is certainly useful for this, since you don't have to grapple or anything.

However, when you get into the area of street fighting, then the people you fight WILL know about MAs, or will be so damn tough that no amount of MA is going to help you. Street fights are for people who are not of entirely sane mind, which I expect is none of us here.

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#189423 - 09/30/05 02:18 AM Re: sport tkd vs street tkd [Re: Supremor]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
I'm not a subscriber to the myth of 'street fighters' being so superior to everyone (including trained martial artists) that an art can be rendered inneffective.

I have no idea if you are talking about people who brawl illegally for money? Or what? People who go into bars looking for trouble maybe?

Why does it matter?

If someone is looking for trouble you can either leave, or you can strike first, strike hard and do not stop hitting them until they are no longer a threat. These people are not super humans, if you are ever 'street fighting' a guy hopped up on drugs and a strong desire to kick your a$$ you're stupid for not bugging out or shooting him or running him over with your car. If you're in so much danger that you need to fight you can strike first and they aren't going to deal with it well even if you telegraph. I stand by the assertion that if you should ever happen to come accross a 'street brawler' and you're completely forced to fight (in a non self defense situation, i.e. life or death) he's going to be a good boxer at best. Please prove me wrong but I've never encountered any evidence that would suggest otherwise, and I have looked hard for it.

If you are looking for 'street fighters', you will find them if you try hard enough. But you have to be a real jerk for them to find and attack you.

I don't know why everyone tries to make the 'street' look like some kind of 1 versus 1 sizing up fight scenario with all kinds of highly trained athletes/fighters on both sides.

All the 1vs1's I have seen (in real life and various video clips) have been a few idiots trading a couple punches and profanity.

Never encounted some magic street fighter goon who could see a TKD/Savate/Muay Thai style kick coming, let alone withstand it once it connected with his gut or other area.

If you're in a crowd that hangs around aggressive fighters who look for illegal matches with other martial artists, you're an idiot for staying there in the first place, no ifs ands or buts.

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#189424 - 09/30/05 03:02 AM Re: sport tkd vs street tkd [Re: paradoxbox]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

If you are looking for 'street fighters', you will find them if you try hard enough. But you have to be a real jerk for them to find and attack you.

If you're in a crowd that hangs around aggressive fighters who look for illegal matches with other martial artists, you're an idiot for staying there in the first place, no ifs ands or buts.




My thoughts exactly.

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#189425 - 06/26/07 10:19 PM Re: sport tkd vs street tkd [Re: TKDFighter89]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I think much of the counters found in sports TKD can work in the street. Just as a person trains themselves to counter a punch with a variety of counter attacks. I believe a sports TKD guy will do well with a kicking counter.

As a sports TKD practitioner myself. I have trained to counter my opponents kicks. In fact much of the sport of Tae kwon do is based on attacking and counter attacking. Like boxing we wait for the right time to attack with the appropriate counter (response).

If the sports TKD fighter maintains his distance which is mid to long range he or she should do well. They merely wait for an attack and counter with an appropriate response. Usually a kick, keep in mind that a kick is 2 to 3 times more powerful than a punch and now add the fact that your using shoes, the damage should only increase. A good counter to the proper target should end the confrontation or at the very least give the sports TKD fighter time to get away.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#189426 - 06/26/07 10:35 PM Re: sport tkd vs street tkd [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
First off, to make a statement like "an olympic medalist would own their opponent" in the street, is quite naive. I have seen phenominal competitors get their a$$e$ handed to them in the street. I have also seen them handle themselves very well, but they weren't using O TKD, they were using self defense. Tek, you once made a statement when you first came to this board that certain masters (WTF) no longer believed in the "One Strike,One Kill" philosophy (you never named who they were by the way), you said , as you mentioned above, they practice the "avoid and counter". Well, self defense is exactly the "One Strike,One Kill" (not literally of course, unless..........). Countering plays a part in SD, but the idea is, end it quickly and get out safely. If that means I have to get inside to grab, then thats what I do, If I'm keeping my distance, then the farther the better and I have no problem running away if it gets me home to my family !

VDJ

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#189427 - 06/27/07 01:25 AM Re: sport tkd vs street tkd [Re: VDJ]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
True I did mention that many TKD master no longer abide by the one strike kill principle. Surely every attack must count and while the intent is to end the confrontation as soon as possible and best if you can do it w/o violence or with very little of it, the training method is no longer to stop on that single blow. Training is now more continuous. Before the way people sparred for practice and competition it was stop point or stop kill. The assumption that the blow delivered would end the confrontation either in actual combat or in sport was taken to literally. Everyone now has changed their view with respect to how they practice. For instance a style like Kenpo which literally has 5-10 follow up attacks from a single technique. Many call this overkill and to an extent it is, however, they are back up for the X variable which may present itself when an opponent does not respond the way you expected.

I should also make note that when referring to Olympic style and their sparring tactics used for actual self defense or fighting. The majority if not all are based on mid to long range fighting. This is where O-TKD excels in.

However, this is not to say that an O-TKD school does not teach fundamental self defense, and the basic tools for attacking such as punching, elbows, knee's and head butts.

But with response to the original question asked by the initial poster 2+ years ago. The counter tactics of O-TKD are very useful for evading and dodging attacks. Coupled with good counter attacks, counters probably not expected by the average untrained attacker.

I myself could not go into what a trained street fighter would expect or go into.

I train for self defense, and even by chance if I had to fight or get into a street fight, my goal is still and will always be self defense first. As soon as I have an opening to escape... I'm gone.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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