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#187525 - 12/03/05 01:00 AM Re: Need a new sword! [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
ModernMulan Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 7
Loc: United States
Mr. Hart, I was at one of your demonstrations in 1992 at UofC if you are the same. I remember you from seiza with katana sheathed cutting an apple you dropped twice before it hit the ground. I think Toyama Ryu or Itto Ryu was your system. I wanted to thank you because I started learning Iaido from a gentleman at the Monominee Buddhist Temple because of your demonstration. I was wondering if you have any infomation on your style available or if you still do seminars? If this is the right person then you also teach Karate, no? If I am wrong then I apologize.
_________________________
C.Caan

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#187526 - 12/03/05 04:44 PM Re: Need a new sword! [Re: ModernMulan]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
Makes me feel rather old. I am humbled by your recognition. Yes, I was taught the Itto ryu school and I have also studied the Toyama ryu system. Kimura Sensei was at the Toyama Officers school in Japan were he learned the Toyama system. I personaly prefer the Itto Ryu to the Toyama Ryu but that is just my opinion. I am glad you started studying and wish you luck in your future endeavors.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

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#187527 - 12/04/05 10:45 AM Re: Need a new sword! [Re: thisguy]
mudobudo Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 28
This is fantasy talk of course. I am a sword maker and I can tell you that whether a sword be made out of steel from powder, or steel from stock bars, it doesn't effect it strength. What effects it's strength is the carbon to iron ratio, as well as how well it is heat treated and tempered. Is it an alloy, does it have trace amounts of other elements that add to the resiliance of the steel? Don't fall for that swedish steel talk or the talk about how great folded steel is. Folded steel is no stronger then any other steel. The real reason steel was folded in ancient times was because the carbon content was not very even from point to point. But, as with kneeding dough, this was how they evened it out. Some will argue this makes the steel stronger, but modern metallurgy and testing have prooved this to be a myth. I am not surprised there is so much false knowledge and myth taken as fact floating around here. Most people who pratice sword arts are not smiths or weapon makers, nor do they need to be. However if you want advice on good weapons insofar as how they are made, you really need to talk to a weapon maker, there is just too much myth parading as fact out there, and it will lead you astray.
Now as for Paul Chen's swords, it is not that his lower end swords are not good quality, it is that not all of them are. The quality control is just plain shoddy. He employs a lot of apprentices, and so his work sufffers. You'd be lucky if you got pieces from him when he first started making them, he was not so well known, and his quality was much better. Now, like anything else, the great God of money has turned his stuff to crap. This is not to say he does not make good pieces, but a good half the time you'll have a piece which won't pass the head test. The head test is very simple, and will help the swordsman out here greatly. Take the sword, grap the grip, and the point, place the center of the blades flat on your head. When the proprieter is not looking, bend it. A good sword, depending on how well it is made and heat treated, will flex, but not bend. If is is of a more rigid steel, it will be very hard to flex and you'll need to juke some more. Even then it may not flex much, this is ok, traditional katanas were very rigid, and you were lucky if you could get it to flex even a half inch to an inch overall. The key is whether or not the blade stays staright. If it does, you know it was atleast heat treated properly, which makes it something you might want to get. This doe's not speak though to the blades overall hardness, or ductility. However it is a good place to start.
To be honest, if your looking for a hand made blade and can afford a grand, I suggest going with a custom blade maker. For that money you can get yourself, with some of them, a very good katana. Others, who have large shops and lots of overhead, will charge you an arm and a leg. For me to make a Katana I charge around 2000 dollars, however a sword made by an expert, and made well, will demolish any commerical blades.
However if you can not afford this,there are alternatives.
*Yawn* I must go, things to do, places to go, swords to build, and yes, I work even on Sundays. I could make more money working at wal mart likely, but I would not enjoy that. If you have any questions, message me. Good day

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#187528 - 12/05/05 10:14 AM Re: Need a new sword! [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
mudobudo Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 28
You know drawing and cutting apples out of the air is not all that hard, read that in one of the earlier posts. Try throwing a penny up in the air, drawing, and cutting it, now that's hard

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#187529 - 12/05/05 10:30 AM Re: Need a new sword! [Re: mudobudo]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Mudobudo. You are a smith? What is you're name? I'd like to do some research on your work. You have some... peculiar notions.


Edited by Charles Mahan (12/05/05 10:31 AM)
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#187530 - 12/05/05 12:52 PM Re: Need a new sword! [Re: Charles Mahan]
mudobudo Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 28
Peculiar notions, thats not very nice, peculiar is a precursor to some kind of rub. Nothing wrong with choosing to remain anonymous, this being the net, so I will remain anonymous if thats ok with you. I don't know what peculiar notions you are speaking of. If you wish to speak of stock removal techniques or some other sword making aspect, cool, but do not send me such emails and expect me to wish to talk to you. Good day.


Edited by mudobudo (12/05/05 12:56 PM)

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#187531 - 12/05/05 01:16 PM Re: Need a new sword! [Re: mudobudo]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Well, peculiar means just that. Unusual. Apart from the norm. Dont read stuff into my posts. When I decide you're goofy, I'll call you goofy. Your assertion concerning Sweedish Powdered Steel doesn't sound right to me, although knowing practically nothing of metalurgy I won't challenge you on them. Nevertheless the assertion is peculiar. My understanding of why Bugei uses Sweedish powdered steel is that it is a method of gaining VERY evenly distributed content throughout the steel. This makes for a very uniformly strong sword with relatively few flaws. At least that is the hope and theory.

Your suggestion that folks try the "head test" before buying a sword is frankly irresponsible. It might be a good test to make sure that there is at least a little bit of flex. Katana's shouldn't flex hardly at all. They aren't supposed to be spring steel. That's beside the point though. The reason I say it's irresponsible is that there are a rather large number of complete newbies on this forum. A lot of whom are under age. What if one of these folks goes into the local knife shop and tries what you suggest? Maybe it gives them the correct information. Maybe they cut their hand. Maybe the set a bend in the sword and then are forced by the proprietor to purchase the damaged sword. Maybe if they don't pay, they are brought up on charges for damaging private property. Irresponsible.

Your notion that cutting apples is not only an acceptable test of skill but not sufficiently difficult and that testing against a penny is a far superior test of skill is also frankly baffling. I'm not aware of a single legitimate style which practices either form of nonsense. So again a notion which is frankly peculiar.

Your decision to hide behind an alias is disappointing. Many smiths participate online. They usually use their real name, or when they don't, will at least provide it when asked. Not doing so implies that you have something that you wish to hide, or perhaps that you would like to be free to make posts that might otherwise embarress you.

Whether it is ok for you to remain anonymous isn't really up to me. It is a policy of this forum that it is allowed. Now what is up to me is to decide in what light to read your posts. Considering the anonymity policy here, we get an awful lot of kids pretending to be something they are not. All new posters are viewed in that light. Someone who posts contradictory to generally accepted ideas and then does not justify them and who chooses to hide behind an alias is always going to be suspect at first. Given time perhaps you will convince the skeptics that you know what you are talking about. Till then everything you say will be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't wish to speak of stock removal techniques. If I did I would go to the smith forum over at Swordforum. That is where a great many smiths hang out. This is a martial arts forum. We are here to speak about martial arts. In the case of this particular thread, training tools.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#187532 - 12/05/05 02:07 PM Re: Need a new sword! [Re: Charles Mahan]
mudobudo Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 28
Really, well since you dont like to speak of things you know nothing about, well I call that peculiar, how else do you learn? And I have seen an awful lot of discussion on here about sword making, hmm, peculiarthat I should go elsehwhere to discuss it.
I have opinions that differ from the norm, that is why I remain anonymous perhaps, not the other way around.
I was not speaking to either apple cutting or penny cutting as a test of skill, frankly because A, very few could cut the penny out of the air after throwing it with their drawing hand, try it. As for the apple, thats too easy. Either could be done by most wiht enough practice. Also, this only speaks to one's iai-jutsu speed, perhaps technique, nothing to their ability to fight, not feel fear of death, or anything else that one encounters in a real fight. It is a trick, a difficult one, but a trick noetheless. Now, to do either blindfolded would speak of more then a trick, to have someone else you don't know doing the throwing while your blindfolded, that is more then a trick. But I won't get into things that vary away from the physical aspects of swordsmanship.
The head test is very acceptable, and really, if your dumb enough to cut your hand, so be it. Really though you gracp the sword at the back edge with two fingers at the point, put the flat on the head, and pull. No it is true, a good Katana will not bend much at all, and if it doe's and stays bent, it is junk. The duh factor applies here I think, and you made my point kinda Charles, It should not bend, if it doe's. it's crap. I use a shirt sleeve at worst, but really, your knit picking here, looking for knits so you can point out flaws in what I say, it's also called splitting hairs. I look at things, differently, like, if your trying to get me to pay this for that, and it don't pass test A, then so be it, I don't want it. However your best bet is to buy it, and if it don't pass at home, bend it back, and return it. If it's junk the person who sold it to you deserves to get it back, and you to get your money back. Have done it many times myself. You speak of the sword seller getting hurt, lol, you really are trying to discredit me aren't you, interesting, why I wonder, and why try so hard, hmm.
Don't get me wrong, swedish steel is good stuff, but honestly, people get way to caught up in the minutae of sword making just as they do with the minutae in practicing swordsmanship if you ask me. Overcomplication is rype in both areas.
Reamining anonymous implies that I have something to hide? That is a circular argument of a paranoid soul. It is like saying "if you don't give blood at a blood drive that you must want someone to die because they need your blood" Perhaps I just don't like needles.
But I am justifying my words, and I explain very well why I say what I say, and what it means. Your whole overly long post is merely a baiting method, from someone who has obviously been here a while, is used to being a large voice here, and it's that simple. You may draw your own conclusions, whatever your motives are, they mean little to me. A good day to you

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#187533 - 12/05/05 02:15 PM Re: Need a new sword! [Re: mudobudo]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Sorry you feel that way. We'll let the other forumites decide how to view your posts.

You missed my point on the apple/penny cutting. They are both parlor tricks. Nothing more. They don't show your ability to do anything except the trick.

As to why I bother posting here, every day I ask myself that question more and more.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#187534 - 12/05/05 02:18 PM Re: Need a new sword! [Re: Charles Mahan]
mudobudo Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 28
I agree and disagree, parlor tricks they may be, if your the one doing the throwing, but if someon else is, it might be different. Try doing it with a blindfold, with someone you do not know. iThe truth is, if you can cut a penny out of the air, blindfolded, with a total stranger throwing it at you, that is not a parlor trick, but show you have learned to extend your senses beyond the purely physical ones, and have developed your sixth sense. Some things are not so black and white Charles. Good day. And do not speak to what others should or should not think, this is you clearly trying to goad other forumites, who you know, to be in line with your line of thinking, how immature. Bye bye.

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