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#187092 - 09/18/05 10:05 PM Question about expandable batons?
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Hi, I'm wondering if anyone out there has used the commonly available 'ninja stick' that can be bought in martial art stores. I'm curious about the durability of it. I am considering buying one as a self defense object but I only want to consider it if it can withstand use as a grappling tool.

Ideally I would like it to simulate/replicate the abilities of grappling using a half staff or full police (non expandable) baton. I'm not so concerned with the ability to strike with it, just its ability to withstand a lot of pressure the ends of it.

Anyone care to comment? Or if you know of a similar product, please let me know. Thanks.

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#187093 - 09/19/05 11:26 AM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: paradoxbox]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
I would not recommend anything typically purchased in a Martial Arts store for Self Defense. Especially if it has moving parts. MA store merchendise is typically low quality imported novelty items that are great for show but do not hold up under conditions of actual use.

Ensure that you are clear and in in accordance with the laws of your state or region before purchase.

Check out ASP or Monadnock with a google search.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#187094 - 09/19/05 09:44 PM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: Fletch1]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
I would recomend ASP and Monodnock, as well. I have a short ASP - expands to 16 inches, and a 21 inch Monodnock. both are very sturdy.

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#187095 - 09/20/05 02:38 PM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: globetrotter]
funstick5000 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
just some additional info, asuming you're american what the police carry over there (and in most places) is properly called a tonfa and is trained in kobudo, generally in pairs.
_________________________
Go seek the advise of a qualified instructor.

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#187096 - 09/20/05 05:01 PM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: funstick5000]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
actually, what I assumed we were discussing was not a tonfa, or a PR-24, as the police tonfa is often called.

I was refering to the straight expandable baton.

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#187097 - 09/20/05 07:10 PM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: globetrotter]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
I don't know of many units that still use the old 1 piece baton. The ASP is usually carried in a leather pouch on the belt or extended in a holster designed for it.

I have read it's made of aluminum, can anyone with experience relate to me whether or not it will stand up to use in grappling? Specifically I want it to be able to withstand such things as aiding in arm bars shoulder locks and chokes, I can't see it ever needing to withstand more than about 40-50lbs of pressure. Will it hold up to that?

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#187098 - 09/20/05 10:47 PM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: paradoxbox]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
The ASP and the Monadnock Expandable Baton will both stand up to grappling use.

Many agencies have dumped the side handle baton (Tonfa for you Kobudo people) in favor of the expandable. This is both for ease of carry, use and of course, for the images burned into the public's eyes from the Rodney King video.
_________________________
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#187099 - 09/20/05 11:38 PM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: Fletch1]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Ooooops! Don't think we want to talk about that Fletch.

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#187100 - 09/21/05 09:20 AM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: Fletch1]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

The ASP and the Monadnock Expandable Baton will both stand up to grappling use.

This is both for ease of carry, use and of course, for the images burned into the public's eyes from the Rodney King video.




New from SBG. The Monadnock Expandable Baton Video starring Rodney King....what? who...? oops my bad. Different Rodney King.

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#187101 - 09/21/05 09:25 AM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: globetrotter]
funstick5000 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
Quote:

actually, what I assumed we were discussing was not a tonfa, or a PR-24, as the police tonfa is often called.

I was refering to the straight expandable baton.



i thought paradoxbox was refering to the tonfa when he (if you are male, correct me if i'm wrong) mentioned 'non-expandable batons'.

in sunny england the police either carry the strait baton (we refer to them as night-sticks) or a hybrid version which is basically a expandable tonfa.
_________________________
Go seek the advise of a qualified instructor.

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#187102 - 09/21/05 04:09 PM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: paradoxbox]
yourownsluth Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 9
Good points about cheap junk. I have used batons from Asian World and never had any major problems for training. They are not law enforcement grade but should do fine for what you want. If you are not concerned with shaking it out for high and low ready stances and just want a stick, I would suggest looking more at safety. Try a dowel rod and wrap it with the foam they put on AC pipes. It won't affect your training but will be appreciated by your uke.

Asian World also has a fiber glass club. Durable but it bends. We have destroyed a few of them.


Stay away from aluminum if you can. They tend to bind over time. If you have the funds, go with law enforcement quality.

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#187103 - 10/06/05 07:26 AM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: paradoxbox]
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
I'd recomend your shins. You have two of them and they are with you at all times.
_________________________
To have all style is to have no style.

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#187104 - 10/07/05 11:19 AM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: funstick5000]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

in sunny england the police either carry the strait baton (we refer to them as night-sticks) or a hybrid version which is basically a expandable tonfa.




British police carry the asp expandable baton as per US police issue. In the UK these are only available for purchase to licensed law enforcement officers,general public and security guards/officers are not allowed to carry them, we have to rely on maglight torches of no bigger than 5 D cell battery capacity (6 cell considered an 'offensive weapon' as it cannot be justified for merely being a torch)

Not to be picky but old fashioned solid straight sticks used by police were called 'truncheons' by UK police, and 'nightsticks' by US forces.
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#187105 - 10/08/05 08:32 AM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: Cord]
funstick5000 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
i've seen both the asp sticks and what i reffered to as 'hybrid' i think its probably the discretion of the officer.

and i've always heard of the old fashoin sticks being called trucheons and the expandable batons as nightsticks.
_________________________
Go seek the advise of a qualified instructor.

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#187106 - 10/08/05 01:27 PM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: funstick5000]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
That got me to thinking if anyone sells collapsable jutte/jitte. That would be an interesting thing to have.

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#187107 - 11/08/05 09:56 AM century [Re: paradoxbox]
jessecrouch Offline
Blogger and Scientist
Newbie

Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 14
i bought a century MA (centuryfitness.com) baton ($20) not too long ago.. it expands at the flick of the wrist. 21". i played with my first one a lot and it eventually wouldn't stay open.. just wouldn't stick. i got a replacement for just the shipping cost and i havent really practiced with it much. just kinda keep it around in case. i practice with my rattan sticks instead.

i wouldn't really recommend it since my first one screwed up on me. id really like to get an ASP, but they're just so damn expensive. i guess its better to pay $50 for something that works than $20 for something that doesnt though.
_________________________
martial.jessecrouch.com

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#187108 - 06/01/06 04:39 PM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: paradoxbox]
Cu29 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 1
I agree with with the comments about the poor quality of collapsible batons that most MA gear stores have available.

The ASP and the Monadnock are good. Both are made of steel, not aluminum.

The latter has the advantage of a button on the tail end for collapsing instead of requiring hitting the tip on a hard surface the way the ASP does. The ASP has a less resistant snap-out action, and a small bare steel tip instead of a somewhat larger, plastic covered tip. Take your pick, depending on your situation, i.e. the most likely set of situations you anticipate encountering. I prefer the ASP for outdoors (due mainly to the slighly faster deployment speed), the Monadnock for indoors (due to the button collapse feature). With either baton, you should practice striking as the baton decollapses, i.e. practice the snap out move as a strike.

By the way, I recommend strongly against the hard plastic LE baton sold by Monadnock; they break too easily. An oak baton may break, too, and send a sharp piece flying, but I've never broken a hickory baton, or seen one break. I sometimes like hickory for in-hand conspicuous carry, e.g. in a crowd patrol situation, but I prefer the collapsible for concealed (usually waistband obscured by shirt) or belt carry. If you don't already have the hickory baton in your hand, it deploys too slowly, e.g. from a duty belt ring, so the collapsible is preferable for most LE situations.

I also recommend against the PR-24. The side handle doesn't confer any important tactical benefits, encourages the use of techniques that are too slow or are otherwise insufficiently effective, and gets in the way of some important baton tactics.

Be safe.

Regards,

Cu29

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#187109 - 06/06/06 06:07 PM Re: Question about expandable batons? [Re: paradoxbox]
SmithNWessonDo Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/06
Posts: 33
Loc: North Texas
The first thing to consider before purchasing a baton is to note the legality of possessing such a weapon. Be sure to check with your applicable government's laws regarding who may carry them and when. In the United States, law enforcement officers generally may carry them at any time and security guards may carry them, but only in certain states and only if properly certified and only while on duty and in uniform.

Personally, I own several types, a 31 inch asp, a wooden nightstick (or truncheon if you prefer), a steel straight baton, and a steel cross-handle baton.
I've found, as others here pointed out, any clubbing device sold at martial arts retailers is generally of poor durability and for display or ceremonial purposes only. Asp, PPCT, and Monadnock usually have the best quality batons.

I've found the expandable batons are ideal for portability since they fit conveniently into a small scabbard on the duty belt. I do prefer the asp in this regard since it is really durable and the Monadnock version of the expandable is pretty expensive. The asp also has a really powerful ballistic destructive capability.

The drawback of the expandable baton, however, is that it takes a longer period of time to remove it from the scabbard and extend it than it does to remove a stick or PR-24 from a belt ring with one hand and simply thrust forward.
I do like the durability of the straight baton and PR-24 in regard to their ability to block melee weapon attacks with any part of the shaft and their usefulness in applying grappling holds on a subject's arms while applying handcuffs.

The drawback of the non-expandable baton is its lack of portability. You generally have to remove it from your belt before getting in the car and take the time to put it back on after getting out. It can also be an annoyance if you ever have to run after somebody since it hits you in the knee repeatedly and can slip out of its ring and fall on the ground. It is also a lot harder to retain.

Which ever weapon you prefer, pick the one you're most familiarized with.
_________________________
"After all, we all have only two arms and two legs." "Death is certain, life is not."

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