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#186721 - 09/17/05 09:52 PM Daily Zen: new week
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Come back soon Joel! My contribution for a new week, from the Daily Zen Calender:

All are nothing but flowers
In a flowering universe.
-Soen Nakagawa

And a little more about him:

http://falcon.tamucc.edu/~sencerz/soen.htm


Edited by harlan (09/17/05 09:56 PM)

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#186722 - 09/17/05 10:40 PM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: harlan]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
The simplest things give me ideas.
- Joan Miro

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#186723 - 09/18/05 04:49 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: Kintama]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I am an idea
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#186724 - 09/18/05 11:34 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: Kintama]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
To relate Kin's quote to the MA, the simplest weapons have lasted for thousands of years because of their effectiveness in simplicity. It's simple, how many people own one utility or hunting knife? How easy is it to find a stick and pick it up? The merit in simplicity is itself, the ability to accomplish much very easily.

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#186725 - 09/19/05 01:05 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: harlan]
Foolsgold Offline
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Registered: 09/02/04
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What's the most important part of a circle?
_________________________
Soy stupido, pero soy guapo!

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#186726 - 09/19/05 10:07 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: harlan]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
From the Daily Zen Calender:

The person, who, being really on the Way, falls upon hard times in the world, will not, as a consequence, turn to that friend who offers him refuge and comfort and encourages their old self to survive. Rather, he will seek out someone who will faithfully and inexorably help him to risk himself, so that he may endure the difficulty and pass courageously through it. Only to the extent that a person exposes himself over and over again to annihilation, can that which is indestructible be found within them. In this daring lies dignity and the spirit of true awakening.

-Karlfried Durckheim

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#186727 - 09/19/05 10:40 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: harlan]
MAGr Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

In this daring lies dignity




I like that

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#186728 - 09/19/05 04:48 PM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: harlan]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
harlan, I think that quote expresses exactly my approach to my MA's. Execellent! Thank you!
_________________________
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#186729 - 09/20/05 08:39 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: harlan]
nenipp Offline
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Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
That sounds very Grandois, I can't say that I can identify myself with that quote (well, doesn't matter, there's always hope for the next life, isn't there?)

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#186730 - 09/20/05 10:38 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: nenipp]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
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Loc: Georgia, USA
Birds chirp, dogs run, mountains are high, valleys low. It’s all perfect wisdom! The seasons change, the stars shine in the heavens; it’s perfect wisdom. Regardless of whether we realize it or not, we are always in the midst of the Way. Or, more strictly speaking, we are nothing but the Way itself.

- Taizan Mawzumi

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#186731 - 09/20/05 02:54 PM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: JoelM]
nenipp Offline
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Registered: 04/13/04
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Then prot's the woblem?

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#186732 - 09/21/05 08:36 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: nenipp]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
There is nothing more difficult for a truly creative painter than to paint a rose, because before he can do so he must forget all the roses that were ever painted.

- Henri Matisse

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#186733 - 09/21/05 09:14 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: JoelM]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
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#186734 - 09/21/05 09:26 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: Kintama]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
"He who would have beautiful Roses in his garden must have beautiful Roses in his heart."
--- S. Reynolds Hole, 1905

Try as I might, the Tea roses I plant every year are decimated by bugs, disease and the New Engand winter. In the end, I have given up on Tea roses, as the ones that seem to survive and thrive under my care are the rugged native species of Rosa Rugosa. Guess I am a wild rose...not a hothouse Tea.

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#186735 - 09/21/05 09:28 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: harlan]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
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Loc: Georgia, USA
Maybe there is a reason that the Rosa Rugosa is the native plant...

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#186736 - 09/21/05 09:54 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: JoelM]
oldman Offline
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Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

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#186737 - 09/21/05 09:57 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: oldman]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
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Loc: Georgia, USA
I doubt a rose has ever been painted quite like that...

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#186738 - 09/21/05 10:06 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: JoelM]
oldman Offline
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Try to forget that rose Mr. Matisse!!!

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#186739 - 09/21/05 10:08 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: oldman]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Not a Matisse...but perhaps a Ruben?

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#186740 - 09/21/05 10:20 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: oldman]
Kintama Offline
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Loc: Massachusetts
Impressionist art?

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#186741 - 09/21/05 10:24 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: Kintama]
UofM Shorin Ryu Offline
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Could be a Botticelli....
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Alea iacta est ~ Gauis Julius Caesar Ne quis nimis ~ Solon Nuts to cancer ~ Sanchin31

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#186742 - 09/21/05 01:05 PM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: oldman]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
A rose by any other name would smell as err...as....um...
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#186743 - 09/21/05 08:55 PM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: Cord]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Such a rosy topic today, and I thought I would get the chance to stop and take a whiff, for once. Now, I'm gonna have to take a couple of shots to get that image unburned off of my eyes.

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#186744 - 09/22/05 01:16 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Being incapable of conjugating the verb to be, we conjugate instead the verb to have. But as the verb to have can lead us nowhere, for nothing lasting can be acquired, we seek indefinitely to have more. Such is the source of our enslavement.

- Robert Linssen

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#186745 - 09/22/05 01:27 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: JoelM]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
From Jr High....

am is are was were be being been have has had do did done may might can could shall should will would....and must!

-B

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#186746 - 09/22/05 03:15 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: butterfly]
Cord Offline
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'Now conjugate the verb to go.....thats it Now do it one hundred times by morning, or we'll cut your ball$ off'

Monty Python- Life of Brian
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#186747 - 09/22/05 09:14 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: JoelM]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
To be, or not to be...that is the question.

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#186748 - 09/22/05 10:29 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: JoelM]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
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Loc: Massachusetts
The way to freedom from that enslavement is: "To give".

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#186749 - 09/22/05 10:55 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: Kintama]
MAGr Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
to give, someone has to take. And then in turn give themselves, to acieve a balance. That equilibrium is hard to achieve if not impossible.

Prisoner's dilema quite interesting:
Tanya and Cinque have been arrested for robbing the Hibernia Savings Bank and placed in separate isolation cells. Both care much more about their personal freedom than about the welfare of their accomplice. A clever prosecutor makes the following offer to each. "You may choose to confess or remain silent. If you confess and your accomplice remains silent I will drop all charges against you and use your testimony to ensure that your accomplice does serious time. Likewise, if your accomplice confesses while you remain silent, they will go free while you do the time. If you both confess I get two convictions, but I'll see to it that you both get early parole. If you both remain silent, I'll have to settle for token sentences on firearms possession charges. If you wish to confess, you must leave a note with the jailer before my return tomorrow morning."
The "dilemma" faced by the prisoners here is that, whatever the other does, each is better off confessing than remaining silent. But the outcome obtained when both confess is worse for each than the outcome they would have obtained had both remained silent. A common view is that the puzzle illustrates a conflict between individual and group rationality. A group whose members pursue rational self-interest may all end up worse off than a group whose members act contrary to rational self-interest. More generally, if the payoffs are not assumed to represent self-interest, a group whose members rationally pursue any goals may all meet less success than if they had not rationally pursued their goals individually.


is it a matter of trust?

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#186750 - 09/22/05 11:02 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: MAGr]
JoelM Offline
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Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
I don't understand how this has relevance to the topic at hand...

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#186751 - 09/22/05 11:11 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: JoelM]
MAGr Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I ll explain my train of thought and you cant tell me if it has any relevance. Because I m not sure myself.

To release yourself from enslavement you have to give, but inorder to give someone has to take. In turn you have to trust that the person who is taking is also willing to give to someone else or back. Otherwise one person ends up with all the goods.
What my interpretation of that quote is is that people should not have to question the trustworthyness of their fellow 'inmate' it should be agiven on both sides.
I think people are reluctant to give because they are afraid that they are going to be the only one giving, if you could just release yourself from that, and everyone did that at the same time, you would indeed have a utopia.

Does that make any sense?
I think I might just be talking out of my arse.
Excuse me, its been a long day at work.

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#186752 - 09/22/05 11:21 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: MAGr]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
It does make sense, although I'm not sure the story you used makes as good of a reference to me, for others it may make more of a connection.
Thanks for the explanation.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#186753 - 09/22/05 11:28 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: MAGr]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Have you ever been to someone's house, and been acutely aware of your manners? Someone offers you a drink...if you refuse...you are rude. If you ask for seconds, or take too much...you are rude. If you ask for milk or sugar, and it has not been offered...you are rude.

Accept freely what is given freely...it is not a payback or even pay it forward system...because your taking actually enobles the giver.

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#186754 - 09/22/05 12:37 PM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: harlan]
MAGr Offline
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Loc: London, home: Athens
I dont particularly agree with that.
I dont mind people asking for things in my house, up to a point obviously. But that point is quite far away. I do feel embarassed to accept things from people I dont know that well. And I actually believe its bout give and take or paying it forward.

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#186755 - 09/22/05 12:41 PM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: MAGr]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
There is a saying that what one sees and understands is a reflection of one's self.

Consider, for a moment, that the same argument can be understood on different levels...even while using the same language. The understanding of give and take on a mundane level is concerned with cups of coffee and the economics of giving. Giving as a concept for personal growth, as a technique for spiritual enlightenment can use the same words as metaphors...but the understanding must be in place to appreciate it.

Kind of like kids listening in to a conversation between adults...they hear the words...but do they understand the different levels?


Edited by harlan (09/22/05 12:48 PM)

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#186756 - 09/22/05 01:01 PM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: harlan]
MAGr Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens

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#186757 - 09/23/05 02:48 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: MAGr]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
A man traveling from New York came to visit a very famous rabbi living in Europe. The man came to the rabbi’s house, a large house on a city street, and was led to the rabbi’s room, which was in the attic. He discovered the master living in a simple room with a bed, a chair, and a few books, nothing more. Disappointed, the man said as soon as he finished formal greetings, “Rabbi, where are your things?”

The rabbi quickly asked back: “Where are your things?”

“But, Rabbi, I’m only passing through,” the visitor said.

“So am I, so am I,” the rabbi replied.

- Western Mondo

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#186758 - 09/23/05 11:16 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: JoelM]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
That perspective resonates with me...I like it. Not being a particularly materialistic person, I tend to think that the more 'things' one owns...the more they own you.

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#186759 - 09/23/05 11:43 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: harlan]
je8ki9 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/04/05
Posts: 32
Loc: UK
Socrates said :to be is to do!
Plato said:to do is to be!
Frank sinatra said:doobedoobedoodoo!!!

Sorry harlan cant help my self sometimes
_________________________
John King www.gosokempo.com

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#186760 - 09/23/05 01:32 PM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: je8ki9]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
I thought that was the budweiser penguin (love that bird)

Anyways, I think you actually have a point, John. Sometimes we are trying to hard to think about what we are doing/trying to do and being/trying to be that we need to just sit down or run away and doobedoobedoo!!!

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#186761 - 09/23/05 10:07 PM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: harlan]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

Have you ever been to someone's house, and been acutely aware of your manners? Someone offers you a drink...if you refuse...you are rude. If you ask for seconds, or take too much...you are rude. If you ask for milk or sugar, and it has not been offered...you are rude.






When I am rude I give my host three gifts.

1.The opportunity to feel "better than" someone.

2.The opportunity to forgive someone

3. Lastly, the opportunity to be forgiven of their arrogance.

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#186762 - 09/25/05 04:16 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: oldman]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
A great little story from Zen Flesh, Zen Bones:

While Seietsu was the master of Engaku in Kamakura he required larger quarters, since those in which he was teaching were overcrowded. Umeza Seibei a merchant of Edo, decided to donate five hundred pieces of gold called ryo toward the construction of a more commodious school. This money he brought to the teacher.

Seisetsu said: "All right. I will take it."

Umezu gave Seisetsu the sack of gold, but he was dissatisfied with the attitude of the teacher. One might live a whole year on three ryo, and the merchant had not even been thanked for five hundred.

"In that sack are five hundred ryo," hinted Umeza.

"You told me that before," replied Seisetsu.

"Even if I am a wealthy merchant, five hundred ryo is a lot of money," said Umezu.

"Do you want me to thank you for it?" asked Seisetsi.

"You ought to," replied Umeza.

"Why should I?" inquired Seisetsu. "The giver should be thankful."
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#186763 - 09/25/05 11:37 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: Gavin]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Excellent book, Gavin, I was wondering of anybody else had it.


The secret of the mountains is that the mountains simply exist, as I do myself: the mountains exist simply, which I do not. The mountains have no “meaning,” they are meaning; the mountains are. The sun is round. I ring with life, and the mountains ring, and when I can hear it, there is a ringing that we share. I understand all this, not in my mind but in my heart, knowing how meaningless it is to try to capture what cannot be expressed, knowing that mere words will remain when I read it all again, another day.

- Peter Matthiessen
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#186764 - 09/26/05 12:33 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: JoelM]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
He who can take no great interest in what is small will take false interest in what is great.

- John Ruskin

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#186765 - 09/26/05 02:34 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: JoelM]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Basically, don't miss the trees for the forest.

It is the small pleasures in life that give day to day living any meaning. For me, one of those small pleasures has been Karaoke Night at my favorite bar. I have several friends that I enjoy seeing, and a few of them I enjoy hearing sing, one night a week. It's all about the fun, even though I'll never be the famous pop star making millions a year.

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#186766 - 09/26/05 08:15 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
nenipp Offline
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Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
When he mentioned false, singing came to my mind too

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#186767 - 10/02/05 07:09 PM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: nenipp]
je8ki9 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/04/05
Posts: 32
Loc: UK
Hi for me its solving acrossword,all other thoughts worries
ect go out of my head.A very zen time!!
_________________________
John King www.gosokempo.com

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#186768 - 10/02/05 09:06 PM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: je8ki9]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Eternity is not something that begins after you are dead. It is going on all the time. We are in it now.

- Charlotte Perkins Gilman

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#186769 - 10/04/05 03:11 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: JoelM]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Eternity has no beginning or end.

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#186770 - 10/04/05 08:43 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
rideonlythelabel Offline
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Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1242
Loc: st-hubert quebec canada
Color of the flower
Has already faded away,
While in idle thoughts
My life passes vainly by,
As I watch the long rains fall.
_________________________
patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.

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#186771 - 10/04/05 10:30 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: JoelM]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Eternity is experienced as 'flow'.

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#186772 - 10/04/05 04:51 PM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: rideonlythelabel]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
"Moderation, which consists in an indifference about little things, and in a prudent and well-proportioned zeal about things of importance, can proceed from nothing but true knowledge, which has its foundation in self-acquaintance."

-some greek guy

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#186773 - 10/05/05 02:15 AM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: Kintama]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.

- Marshall McLuhan

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#186774 - 10/06/05 02:54 PM Re: Daily Zen: new week [Re: Kintama]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Quote:

Moderation, which consists in an indifference about little things, and in a prudent and well-proportioned zeal about things of importance, can proceed from nothing but true knowledge, which has its foundation in self-acquaintance




...and is mastered only by moderators?

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#186775 - 10/07/05 02:28 AM Great things [Re: nenipp]
JoelM Offline
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Loc: Georgia, USA
In this life we cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love.

- Mother Teresa

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#186776 - 10/07/05 11:41 PM Re: Great things [Re: JoelM]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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I don't entirely agree with that sentiment. It is good to know that Mother Teresa spoke with such humility. I do have to counterbalance that with a quote from Alexander the Great- "Some people are born great, some people achieve greatness, and some people have greatness thrust upon them." The ultimate gist between the two together is that some people are meant to be great, most are not. I personally do not believe so much in a set fate, but I do understand that various factors conspire once in a while to produce someone truly great, who will be remembered for ages. But it can't be everyone.

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#186777 - 10/08/05 12:18 AM Re: Great things [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Foolsgold Offline
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Registered: 09/02/04
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Psh, I'll take Mother Teresa's word over Alexander the Great's any day.
_________________________
Soy stupido, pero soy guapo!

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#186778 - 10/08/05 02:07 AM Re: Great things [Re: Foolsgold]
UofM Shorin Ryu Offline
Resident Forum Breakdancer

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 981
at Fools!!

Kidding of course.
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