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#186006 - 09/14/05 08:31 PM US or Israel?
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Say your had a choice of Instructors...A well qualified US instructor that had years of experience, or an Israeli instructor.. Which would you chose, and why?

I can understand traveling to Israel to train if you have the money and time. Plus the travel and experience would be a blast.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#186007 - 09/14/05 08:49 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Curious....Is there a great level of difference in what is taught by Israeli instructors vs. what is taught over here?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#186008 - 09/14/05 08:58 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: MattJ]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

Curious....Is there a great level of difference in what is taught by Israeli instructors vs. what is taught over here?




Some claim there is. If one of the premier instructors comes over from Israel, a lot of Krav folks make every attempt to attend a seminar with them.

The jury is still out with me.. I think a good instructor is a good instructor, no matter where he or she comes from. As long as they are teaching Krav in it's correct form, I am not sure there is a difference.

I would say training with an experienced Israeli instructor puts you in touch with someone who most likely has had their skills in both Krav and Instructing pressure tested in a country that lives with hostility on a daily basis.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#186009 - 09/14/05 09:09 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
awais786 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 79
Loc: ONT. CANADA
If i was to train karv maga i would either train in pakistan or isreal.Reason simple.Karv maga in these to countries are mostly thaught to military personnal.So i would get kinda military training

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#186010 - 09/14/05 09:15 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: awais786]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

If i was to train karv maga i would either train in pakistan or isreal.Reason simple.Karv maga in these to countries are mostly thaught to military personnal.So i would get kinda military training




Interesting concept. Military Krav also coveres things like hand grenade defense and disarming somone with a machine gun. Would you say that is appropriate for someone living in Canada..or the US?
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#186011 - 09/15/05 12:21 AM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
i'm glad this topic has come up, as i was just about to pose a similar question. i've been faced with a dilemna lately myself. the school i attend teaches krav, boxing, kickboxing, wushu kung fu and rickson gracie bjj. the krav class is great and i can't speak highly enough of my sifus, who are among the most reputable in chicago and have trained a good number of professional fighters. however, to spar you need to be in the boxing/kickboxing classes which means an extra bit of cash a month. not much, but more than i want to throw down to learn similar puches and kicks to what i get from krav. i also am beginning to get impatient with alot of other students, as many of them are too shy to apply as much force as i would like in the training drills. i'm always saying "look, you can choke me" or "punch at my face, not a foot off my ear". i'm not trying to brag, i just want to put my skills to the test. i expressed my desire to train in israel for a short period of time to my instructors - one said it was a good idea but immediately brought up the danger of getting blown away while sitting in a cafe. another (the operating owner) said she doesn't see any reason to teach machine gun or grenade disarms and will never teach it. she also added that in israel, they will train me like an israeli and it will be quite a different thing. i want to stay commited to this school, but also want to accelerate my training from what everyone is doing to that of a serious fighter. private lessons seem like one option and the trip to israel could be well worth it.
i think this is a good example of the difference in US krav training - if it was made too much more intimidating, the schools would probably lose a lot of students.
sorry if this got long winded.

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#186012 - 09/15/05 09:51 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
umsangil Offline
Member

Registered: 07/22/05
Posts: 83
I would choose an Israeli instructor because Im curious about the difference in methods/training/experience. They also bring a different perspective on things, coming from a different country. I also want to witness that hardcore fighting Israeli spirit.

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#186013 - 09/16/05 03:18 AM Re: US or Israel? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
clammy joe Offline
Member

Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 112
ShikataGaNai, what school do you train at? I'm in Chicago and I train at Ultimate Martial Arts in Lincolnwood. I've been telling myself since I started 8 months ago I'd like to drop in to another school to see how they do things, though I'm perfectly happy with my school. My instructor is excellent and always encourages people to be very aggressive during drills. "Aggressive" and "Attack" are two of his favorite words.

As for the original question I don't think I'd care one way or the other, a good instructor is a good instructor, though the idea of actually going to Israel to train involves a lot more than just the quality of instruction.

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#186014 - 09/16/05 12:05 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: clammy joe]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
i train at a MMA/fitness gym called pow martial arts. it used to be called iron fist kung fu or something. the sifus are great and the facilities top notch. i could gush on and on - the only downside is that the ratio of beginners to advanced students is around 10 to 1. personally, i like a partner that actually chokes me or throws punches at my face and many of the students (and there are MANY) are too shy - not in the ju jistu class though! it's set up so you get what you put into it and unfortunately there are laggers anywhere you go. drop by sometime!

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#186015 - 09/16/05 02:08 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
My take on it is this:

y instructor in Miami was one of the few chosen people in the early 80s to spred Krav througout the world, esp the US.

I have seen pictures of him and Imi and can say that he is the real deal. He is also one of the senior instructors of the IKMA, the original organization founded by Imi in the late 70's.

He has and contimues to teach civilian and military applications of Krav Maga.

Here is the biggest difference in my opinion between an Israeli and American instructor:

When Rick teaces us a technique, he always starts out with the more "vanilla" version. After you get that down he will come over to some of the more "senior" students and take the same technique and notch it up to military applications, which are more viloent/deadly.

An American not trained in military Krav cannot do that unless he has been trained by someone who has.

I have seen/spoken to some guys who take Krav thru Krav USA who have been studying for a couple of years that are way behind what we have done. Their stick fighting is not as advanced as what we do, etc.....in fact, I've never seen any type of stick fighting on their website.

You are only as good as your instructor.

For those of you familiar with David Kahn and his book on Krav Maga that was prined last year, his instructor/mentor is the same guy I learn from.

.02
_________________________
Be safe, If not kick someones ass.

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#186016 - 09/16/05 02:17 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
Buy " How to defend yourself against armed assault by Eyal Yanilov and Imi.

YOu'll see the grenade disarm as well as dozens of other stick, knife, gun disarms.

Very helpful.

The grenade disarm is similar to the gun knife in that you want to control the hand so that the grenade does not detonate.
_________________________
Be safe, If not kick someones ass.

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#186017 - 09/16/05 04:19 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: Plantman]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
that book is a really good introductory perspective on how the israelis train. it's a whole different world where you actually have to think about how to disarm a grenade.

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#186018 - 09/17/05 04:59 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
retzef Offline
Member

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 43
I think Israeli training gives a whole different perspective than american teaching. Much higher level of intensity.
_________________________
So that we may walk in Peace.

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#186019 - 09/17/05 05:32 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
awais786 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 79
Loc: ONT. CANADA
Quote:

Quote:

If i was to train karv maga i would either train in pakistan or isreal.Reason simple.Karv maga in these to countries are mostly thaught to military personnal.So i would get kinda military training




Interesting concept. Military Krav also coveres things like hand grenade defense and disarming somone with a machine gun. Would you say that is appropriate for someone living in Canada..or the US?




Yes.Up till now the only people i faught were using their"sissy" punches and kicks.Even the strongest of them was to swing his arms so he caould punch.I took them down with no sweat{Not trying to be a VTG }.But if they were to come up to me with a gun or a kinfe then that would be a real challange to defend against.So learning military style MAs will get me to know how to defend against guns and stuff like that.

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#186020 - 11/09/05 07:52 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
Choochoo Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/09/05
Posts: 1
To be honest, I think your question sounds a little prejudice. Many people think that simply because an instructor is Japanese he's a ninja or just because he's Isreali he's a master of Grav maga. What kind of instruction are you seeking and have you done research on these guys? I would say find the one with the most "street combat" experience and go with him. Second question.... Do you speak Arab?

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#186021 - 11/09/05 09:42 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: awais786]
NEAS Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 168
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

If i was to train karv maga i would either train in pakistan or isreal.Reason simple.Karv maga in these to countries are mostly thaught to military personnal.So i would get kinda military training




Interesting concept. Military Krav also coveres things like hand grenade defense and disarming somone with a machine gun. Would you say that is appropriate for someone living in Canada..or the US?




Yes.Up till now the only people i faught were using their"sissy" punches and kicks.Even the strongest of them was to swing his arms so he caould punch.I took them down with no sweat{Not trying to be a VTG }.But if they were to come up to me with a gun or a kinfe then that would be a real challange to defend against.So learning military style MAs will get me to know how to defend against guns and stuff like that.




Huhmmm dont quite get this??? Defend against guns? You dont have a gun?Hope the person with a gun is stupid. Rather not be in that situation for real but for training your navy seals do the same thing? and there are training vidios?
neas ex,,,soldier /vet

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#186022 - 11/09/05 09:46 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Say your had a choice of Instructors...A well qualified US instructor that had years of experience, or an Israeli instructor.. Which would you chose, and why?

I can understand traveling to Israel to train if you have the money and time. Plus the travel and experience would be a blast.




People travel to Korea to study TKD and Okinawa to study karate. In my opinion there are many people teaching here in the U.S. that are just as good as any others anywhere on the planet.Ofcourse,I've never been anywhere either.
Your learning potential and ability are up to you,not where you go to train. They can only show you how to do it,you have to do it.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#186023 - 11/09/05 10:44 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: Choochoo]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

To be honest, I think your question sounds a little prejudice. Many people think that simply because an instructor is Japanese he's a ninja or just because he's Isreali he's a master of Grav maga. What kind of instruction are you seeking and have you done research on these guys? I would say find the one with the most "street combat" experience and go with him. Second question.... Do you speak Arab?




Prejudiced? Why? It's a simple question. No I do not speak Arabic. How is this relevant to the question?
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#186024 - 11/09/05 10:47 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

To be honest, I think your question sounds a little prejudice. Many people think that simply because an instructor is Japanese he's a ninja or just because he's Isreali he's a master of Grav maga. What kind of instruction are you seeking and have you done research on these guys? I would say find the one with the most "street combat" experience and go with him. Second question.... Do you speak Arab?




Prejudiced? Why? It's a simple question. No I do not speak Arabic. How is this relevant to the question?




GEEEEZZZZ!!! What's wrong with people!!!! If we don't speak Arabic we are not allowed to ponder hypothetical questions??
This is irrelevant garbage!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#186025 - 11/09/05 10:54 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: BrianS]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Go figure..the poster is from Canada so I have no idea how Arabic enters into it...
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#186026 - 11/10/05 04:04 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
uhmmm, don't they speak hebrew?

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#186027 - 11/10/05 05:16 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

uhmmm, don't they speak hebrew?




Yes. I have it on very good authority that they do speak Hebrew in Israel.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#186028 - 11/12/05 08:03 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

Quote:

uhmmm, don't they speak hebrew?




Yes. I have it on very good authority that they do speak Hebrew in Israel.




good, cause i'd hate to think my jewish family would have lied to me all these years

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#186029 - 11/13/05 11:44 AM Re: US or Israel? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
most people involved in krav maga that speak arabic are about as happy as heavy bags are in a boxing gym. hebrew is the langauge of israel.

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#186030 - 11/19/05 12:37 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
Celerity Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 4
Well , it's not realy in the disscution, but I live in israel and practice Karate.

I just find it amusing..

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#186031 - 11/19/05 01:07 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: Celerity]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

Well , it's not realy in the disscution, but I live in israel and practice Karate.

I just find it amusing..




I see nothing wrong with that. One should practice the art they find suits them, regardless of where they live or the language they speak.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#186032 - 11/30/05 03:08 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
stvb7 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Maryland
I am new to Krav and I train with an instructor who was in the Isreali Special Forces (I forget what unit). He tends to teach the Krav technique "by the book", followed by more aggressive, military "endings" for the manuevers. He also will throw in extra military drills such as granade disarms and bomber identification and take downs to make classes more interesting. Most of us will never have to use those skills, but it is always useful to gain new knowledge, especially from someone who has taken down suicide bombers in public places.
In addition to learning how to cause the most damage to our opponent, we learn about appropriate levels of force and are made completely aware of the ramifications of certain manuevers (such as throat strikes).
I feel that I gain a lot from having an instructor who has actually used his Krav skills in the field. I do believe that someone's belt level or practical experience does not necessarily measure their ability to convey the information to me, but in my situation I think I have the best of all worlds, an instructor with teaching skills and field experience.

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#186033 - 12/01/05 01:28 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: stvb7]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
I don't mean to dis you or your instructor, but why would you want all that military training if you're not going into war? I also think it's great that your instructor teaches "necessary amount of force" but that seems to sort of counter the "endings" doesn't it?
I personally think that teaching students how to "finish" a fight does two things - it instills a false sense of confidence (because you didn't take the chance to run when you had it) and it endangers other people. I don't believe that someone should be put to death for trying to jack your wallet, i don't care what anyone says.
There are so many of these Krav instructors that are promising "real military training" and all that, as if it's an honor to be trained by someone who likely used their technique on more palestinian protesters than they did on actual trained combatants. I don't think most real warriors brag about how many of anyone they have taken down no matter who it is.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, but as a Jew, a Krav practitioner and someone who has acquaintences on both sides of the conflict in Israel I am getting sick and tired of people teaching militarized martial arts. Krav Maga's place in America should be one of strict self defense. Leave the grenade disarms and crap to the professionals.

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#186034 - 12/01/05 04:17 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
As a non-Krav guy I've got to admit, that I agree with this. I am rather concerned about some of the paramilitary types attracted to Krav (from what I've seen). However, it is marketed that way here in Poland. The barman of my local sported a club t-shirt with some thing like a Mossad hit squad on it!

At a local demo of MA the Krav guy basically showed something which looked like if someone spilled your drink you battered him to death with a table and dialled for a helicopter strike and slammed the mobile up his orifice for the heatseekers to find.

The same guy asked for a volunteer from the audience, gave him a knife to hold against his (the Krav guy's) throat, "If you feel me move, cut me!"

Is this the kind of image Krav has (or wants) worldwide?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#186035 - 12/01/05 05:00 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: trevek]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
It sort of defies grandmaster Lichtenfeld's original philosophy of it - "so that one may walk in peace".

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#186036 - 12/01/05 05:49 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

Krav Maga's place in America should be one of strict self defense.




Well put. And that is the way we art taught at my school.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#186037 - 12/02/05 11:55 AM Re: US or Israel? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
stvb7 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Maryland
Respectfully, I'd have to disagree with you on some of your points. As a female who doesn't get into fights, I will assume that the most likely scenario for me fighting will involve a man attacking me with bad intent or potentially a drunk woman at a bar (neither of which has ever happened). I'm leaving out getting robbed b/c I'll just give up my wallet, and so there won't be a fight. The two situations I named are totally different and they warrant different levels of force. If a drunk woman attacks me, my intent would be to stop the fight as quickly as possible and leave before her friends jump in. If a man attacks me, my intent is similar, but the level of "stopping" power is going to escalate.
At this point in my Krav training, I don't feel like I can necessarily "beat" a man up b/c as I've said, I have never gotten into a fight. I think I'm more likely to get in a lucky shot. Despite that I will not give up, and if I get the opportunity for a hit that will keep him down for good, I'm going to take it. That is the value in knowning the more "military" manuevers, because the military versions assume that your attacker is trying to kill you, not that your attacker is some drunk lady who thinks you are looking at her funny.
I also don't assume that running away is as easy as people make it sound. I think that if I hit a guy, even in the groin, he could very well get right back up madder than ever. I am not a fast runner, nor am I particularly strong. Any hits I make have to count, and I value the training that will tell me which strikes will be the most effective.
From your statements, I assume that you are picturing us learning military manuevers by getting an opponent down (unable to get up) and then proceeding to do more lethal attacks. That is not the case at all. It more a question of what manuever to use directly after you are attacked and you have done your preliminary Krav defense. For instance (just making this up) you are being choked from the back. After you use the pluck to remove the attackers hands, you have a number of available responses. One response may be a submission, and another may be a groin kick, while another could be to break their elbow by pulling it down over your shoulder. Breaking their elbow might be the "military" version of the defense, and some men may contend that they'd rather get that than a groin kick . The military things we've learned aren't necessarily deadly(some are, some aren't), they are just more assertive. Some such as throat strikes are potentially deadly. If a man attacks me in a parking lot, I'm going to use every weapon available, and if I have the choice between punching him in the nose or the throat, I'm going to pick the throat.
As for learning the military things like terrorist take downs, those really are just things are thrown in on rare occassions just because they are interesting. And while the average American doesn't need them, let's instead look at ways they can be useful. Disarming someone with a grenade can be very similar to disarming a someone who is throwing rocks or bottles. Taking down a terrorist with a bomb would probably be the same manuever used to take down a drunk friend who is insisting on starting a fight.
I haven't heard of any Krav instructors offering "real military training", I didn't realize that was going on. My school certainly doesn't offer that. My school does have "real Krav training by someone who happened to learn and use the skills in the military". I think that any 1 hour class for civilians is going to be pretty sissy compared to military training, regardless of how hard people think their Krav classes are. That is just my view. I also don't know of anyone who brags about how many people they have taken down. But I'm sure that if your teacher was showing you how they are trained to take down a terrorist wearing a bomb, you'd ask "have you ever had to do this for real"? And believe it or not, the manuever that we learned wasn't deadly at all. The whole point of the take-down is to get the person on their back and keep their hands controlled so that they can't set off a bomb whose trigger is near their stomach.
Everyone who I train with is in it for the self defense aspect, and that is the point that is pressed by our instructors.
Not every person who was in the military walks around in camouflage reliving their glory days. My opinion on the original thread was that I find value in learning a skill from someone who has actually had to *use* it. I'm sure that many of the people who were formally in the military only saw "action" against unarmed protesters, but please don't disrespect someone's military experience if you don't know anything about it.
I've looked at these boards for a while and never posted because I felt that posts can be easily misunderstood, and I think that has happened with my post here.

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#186038 - 12/02/05 12:47 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: stvb7]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
I appreciate your elaboration on your points and I apologize if I came off as antagonistic. I hope you can see how I misconstrued intentions of posting and forgive me for it.
There is an embarrasingly large amount of ex-vets from the IDF who are without question trying to make a buck off of their military credit and I tend to stay wary of their students. My sifus have never been in any service and teach Krav as a basic hand-to-hand self defense class and nothing more. They are reluctant to even teach weapon disarms, not because they think they are unnecessary but because they don't have faith in the bulk of the students to effectively learn these techniques. The problem with Krav in my eyes is it's marketing and franchising. It is a very comprehensive system so it attracts many people for many different reasons. Some want the conditioning, some the self defense and a few are in to make themselves feel like they're commandos. This is the aspect of it I really don't like.
Also, I'm not trying to disrespect anyone's military experience - especially when it comes to those who are more or less forced into conscription. I do however know more than I want to about the Israel situation, but I'm not going to open that can of worms, as it is against the rules to discuss politics on a Martial Arts forum.
As it should be.
I am glad you benefit from your training and would never intentionally say word one to discourage you from it. Krav Maga is empowering and can really help you feel safe in your environment.
I also agree with you that posting on boards can lead to being flamed and disrespected, but I assure you that this is one of the most mature, informative and friendly sites on the web. You came to the right place!
Once again, I humbly apologize for any misunderstanding and hope I did not disrespect you or your school.
peace.

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#186039 - 12/02/05 02:42 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I knew what you were trying to say and why. I also understand the cultural differences, so I read the intent more than the words in most cases. I did not see it as disrespect. I tend to clamp down hard and fast if I think that is the case.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#186040 - 12/02/05 02:45 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: stvb7]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
You are only a short distance from myself, Razorfoot, MattJ and ToddR. Perhaps you would be willing to meet up with us at some point. I understand your points as well. I think there is a compromise somewhere in the middle, and you stated your points respectfuly.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#186041 - 12/03/05 11:57 AM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
I think the biggest difference you are likely to experience is going to be the intensity of the training. In my experience, martial arts training in the US is tending toward, how can I train without actually getting hit, bloodied or bruised. This certainly isn't Krav specific but come on, Krav took off commercially in the US because of Jennifer Lopez. I know there is still some great training to be had here but there is also some very watered down training. We had a guy that moved to town come visit our class and leave after a week because we hit too hard and he went to find a place more like his previous Krav class...

In my aikido life I found that most beginner's dreamed to training in Japan ala Steven Seagal. But then I'd hear from the people that actually trained in Japan and they told me that in general the sensei in Japan doesn't explain anything. He shows the technique and you are on your own to learn it. If you missed it, come back knext week and maybe you'll learn in.

But here in the states far too many people walk in a dojo (of any style) and ask how long until their first test, how long until black belt and why do I have to commit for 6 months or a year.

Very different mind sets in my opinion.

Chris

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#186042 - 12/03/05 12:16 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
I find it interesting that so many discussions about Krav evolve into the "real vs commercial" or "military v. civilian" and maybe someone can explain this to me.

Now in my opinion, things like grenade disarms, weapon retention, and tactical shooting would fall under the military version but other than that, I'm at a loss to understand the distinction when it comes to hand combat.

Is the military punch secretly more devestating than the civilian punch? If I'm at the point of punching someone, I'm taking doing my best to land hard, accurately and often; is that military or civilian?

Is my low roundhouse kick supposed to be gentle in a "civilian" class but break the leg or knee in a "military" class?

In a grappling situation, an armbar is an armbreak if the guy doesn't tap or we choose to ignore the tap. Is there a more deadly armbar out there that nobody will teach me because I'm not special forces?

A choke is an unconscious attacker if he doesn't tap or we choose to ignore the tap.

Most of my background is in aikido, you know the one with alll the harmony talk. There is a throw called shihonage considered one of the foundations of the art that in class ends up with either a nice take down or a fancy breakfall. The throw if done as designed rips and tears the three joints of the arm and then drives the attackers head into the ground. The intent of the throw is to damage then kill the opponent on the battlefield. Hard to get much practice in if you do it that way but the ability is there. So does that make it a harmonious "civilian" technique or a brutal "military" technique?


The only distinction I really see is options on ending the confrontation but even that is a very blurry line. but doesn't it really my decision on how much and how many that determines the lethality of my actions?

What am I missing?

Chris

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#186043 - 12/03/05 12:25 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: stvb7]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

Some such as throat strikes are potentially deadly.



I've been punched in the throat by a drunk guy during a fight that I lost but I survived. I agree the potential is there but it is only a potential.

Quote:

If a man attacks me in a parking lot, I'm going to use every weapon available, and if I have the choice between punching him in the nose or the throat, I'm going to pick the throat.




The reality is that you may pick the throat but if you hit anything you are likely to hit somewhere in the vicinity of the nose or throat. Pinpoint striking against a moving combative opponent is harder than so many people seem to think.

Quote:

Disarming someone with a grenade can be very similar to disarming a someone who is throwing rocks or bottles.




The big difference to me is that someone throwing a rock or a bottle at me is not posing a true threat to my life, but that guy or gal with the grenade certainly is. In the case of the grenade (and I can't think of a single scenario but what the heck), unless we are within arms reach my best chance is to not be there. In the case of the rocks and/or bottles, I may choose to get hit with a rock or two in the process of accomplishing something. But then again I can't really create a scenario for this.

I don't mean to sound critical because overall this was a great post.

Chris


Edited by csinca (12/03/05 12:26 PM)

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#186044 - 12/03/05 05:04 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: csinca]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Having worked in a bar, I've seen bottles used as both clubs and missiles. There's also the scenario of throwing a bottle to break and shatter onto the guy below. Nasty.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#186045 - 12/03/05 05:22 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: csinca]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
The intensity of training in any martial art differs from dojo to dojo. Some folks take longer to move from the basics to the advanced levels. We are a society that has enjoyed freedom from terrorism up to 9/11. We are also a society that has experienced a rise in violent attacks, and a drop in common courtesy between people. The general public is only now coming to the slow realization that a good part of their safety and security from petty theft to terrorist attack.... is in their own hands. The basic ability to defend ones self has become as necessary a skill set as the abitlity to read and write.

It is not that many generations ago in our own past that every citizen was as capable of defending themselves against hostile attack, as the citizens of Israel are today.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#186046 - 12/03/05 05:29 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: csinca]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I think it is safe to assume that the majority of Krav taught in the US is the general civilian version. There may be a former member of the IDF that teaches more than the general class plan, but that would be an anomaly and not the rule.

Also keep in mind that there are two factions of Krav as well. There is not a lot of love between them, if you get my drift.

I hope I am making sense with my answers...I just got back from day two of supporting a friend in instructor testing...and I have a huge headache..


Edited by RangerG (12/03/05 05:34 PM)
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#186047 - 12/04/05 10:57 AM Re: US or Israel? [Re: trevek]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

Having worked in a bar, I've seen bottles used as both clubs and missiles. There's also the scenario of throwing a bottle to break and shatter onto the guy below. Nasty.




Does the scenario change much if you replace "bottles" with "hand grenades" in this story?

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#186048 - 12/04/05 02:19 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: csinca]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Having only thrown grenades at dummies I've not seen the results, but I'll hazard a guess that the result might be similar (if more bloody) in that greanades scatter hot shrapnel etc and once thrown there is little to do but get out of the way or hug the nearest sumo wrestler and fall on the floor under them.

Naturally, I stand to be corrected (if the sumo wrestler didn't squash me or the grenade get me).
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#186049 - 12/05/05 10:35 AM Re: US or Israel? [Re: trevek]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
having been in the IDF, in the "Special forces", studied krav as a soldier at wingate the "shoalin temple of krav" and now being just a regular milddle aged guy, I have my own perspective.

1. I really think that most of these guys teaching who present themselves as having been in the "special forces" are really selling a load of crap. I was in a very good unit, and took the best course in krav available to a combatant - that is a person who is involved in combat, not an instructor- and I am nowhere near qualified to teach.

2. I find it distastful that some vetrans go out and teach military skills to people who don't need them. one day I will teach my son a thing or two, possibly how to handle a firearm, possibly a little bit about fighting, but I have no intention of teaching anybody any additional military skills.

3. I really don't think that krav schools should be in the business of teaching military skills, at all

4. the flip side of that, krav is about being able to do damage, and it shoulnd't be made more gentle.

5. I am a fat old man with a little kid. the only way I will ever get into a fight is if somebody attacks me, and I can't talk him out of it. if that happens, I will not be playing around, I will be tearing out his throat and eyes and crushing his knees, kidney and testicles. one of us will be in the hospital or morgue at the end of the scuffle

6. as to the poster who said something about palestinian demonstrators - keep in mind that the vast majority of those "demonstrators" were healthy young men, often farm oys or men who had been working in construction since their childhood. very often 5-10 soldiers, armed with night sticks, would find themselves facing 50 or so young men armed with stones, bottles, and knives. this is a great deal more challenging than conflicts against terrorists - when you go in after a terrorist, it is very clear that the terrorist will end up in a bag.

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#186050 - 12/06/05 11:18 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: globetrotter]
Plantman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 62
Loc: Maimi
If you wanted to learn how to play th epiano, would you only learn it half assed?

If you can get the military training, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Having some [censored] claim to be ex IDF and special this or that to make money sucks, but we live in a capitalist society.

To get bakc to the original post, I doubt you can learn Krav better anywhere in the world than is Israel.

It's not just the instructors, it's the students, they are more intense(i"ve heard from a buddy who's been). A lot of these guys have been practicing this from a very young age.

How is it possible we can have the quantity of proficient people here in the US if that's the case.

I heard that in Netanya, the birthplace of Krav, the place is littered with schools(relatively speaking), so it may be watered down if ou got to the wrong one there as well.

I plan on going to Israel at some point to train with Haim Gidon on the IKMA. Maybe next year.

.02
_________________________
Be safe, If not kick someones ass.

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#186051 - 12/20/05 07:42 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: Plantman]
firecoins Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 2
Loc: NYC
ISraeli training is more intense.

I am interested in kearning the military skills. I see no problem with it as I have never got into a fight and don't plan to anythime soon. Since 9/11, the London bombings, the Spanish bombings and the shoe bomber, I say some of the military skills could come in handy.

You can find schools in various different MAs that teach rather brutal techniques. Krav doesn't necessarily need to teach them.

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