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#186036 - 12/01/05 05:49 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

Krav Maga's place in America should be one of strict self defense.




Well put. And that is the way we art taught at my school.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#186037 - 12/02/05 11:55 AM Re: US or Israel? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
stvb7 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Maryland
Respectfully, I'd have to disagree with you on some of your points. As a female who doesn't get into fights, I will assume that the most likely scenario for me fighting will involve a man attacking me with bad intent or potentially a drunk woman at a bar (neither of which has ever happened). I'm leaving out getting robbed b/c I'll just give up my wallet, and so there won't be a fight. The two situations I named are totally different and they warrant different levels of force. If a drunk woman attacks me, my intent would be to stop the fight as quickly as possible and leave before her friends jump in. If a man attacks me, my intent is similar, but the level of "stopping" power is going to escalate.
At this point in my Krav training, I don't feel like I can necessarily "beat" a man up b/c as I've said, I have never gotten into a fight. I think I'm more likely to get in a lucky shot. Despite that I will not give up, and if I get the opportunity for a hit that will keep him down for good, I'm going to take it. That is the value in knowning the more "military" manuevers, because the military versions assume that your attacker is trying to kill you, not that your attacker is some drunk lady who thinks you are looking at her funny.
I also don't assume that running away is as easy as people make it sound. I think that if I hit a guy, even in the groin, he could very well get right back up madder than ever. I am not a fast runner, nor am I particularly strong. Any hits I make have to count, and I value the training that will tell me which strikes will be the most effective.
From your statements, I assume that you are picturing us learning military manuevers by getting an opponent down (unable to get up) and then proceeding to do more lethal attacks. That is not the case at all. It more a question of what manuever to use directly after you are attacked and you have done your preliminary Krav defense. For instance (just making this up) you are being choked from the back. After you use the pluck to remove the attackers hands, you have a number of available responses. One response may be a submission, and another may be a groin kick, while another could be to break their elbow by pulling it down over your shoulder. Breaking their elbow might be the "military" version of the defense, and some men may contend that they'd rather get that than a groin kick . The military things we've learned aren't necessarily deadly(some are, some aren't), they are just more assertive. Some such as throat strikes are potentially deadly. If a man attacks me in a parking lot, I'm going to use every weapon available, and if I have the choice between punching him in the nose or the throat, I'm going to pick the throat.
As for learning the military things like terrorist take downs, those really are just things are thrown in on rare occassions just because they are interesting. And while the average American doesn't need them, let's instead look at ways they can be useful. Disarming someone with a grenade can be very similar to disarming a someone who is throwing rocks or bottles. Taking down a terrorist with a bomb would probably be the same manuever used to take down a drunk friend who is insisting on starting a fight.
I haven't heard of any Krav instructors offering "real military training", I didn't realize that was going on. My school certainly doesn't offer that. My school does have "real Krav training by someone who happened to learn and use the skills in the military". I think that any 1 hour class for civilians is going to be pretty sissy compared to military training, regardless of how hard people think their Krav classes are. That is just my view. I also don't know of anyone who brags about how many people they have taken down. But I'm sure that if your teacher was showing you how they are trained to take down a terrorist wearing a bomb, you'd ask "have you ever had to do this for real"? And believe it or not, the manuever that we learned wasn't deadly at all. The whole point of the take-down is to get the person on their back and keep their hands controlled so that they can't set off a bomb whose trigger is near their stomach.
Everyone who I train with is in it for the self defense aspect, and that is the point that is pressed by our instructors.
Not every person who was in the military walks around in camouflage reliving their glory days. My opinion on the original thread was that I find value in learning a skill from someone who has actually had to *use* it. I'm sure that many of the people who were formally in the military only saw "action" against unarmed protesters, but please don't disrespect someone's military experience if you don't know anything about it.
I've looked at these boards for a while and never posted because I felt that posts can be easily misunderstood, and I think that has happened with my post here.

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#186038 - 12/02/05 12:47 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: stvb7]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
I appreciate your elaboration on your points and I apologize if I came off as antagonistic. I hope you can see how I misconstrued intentions of posting and forgive me for it.
There is an embarrasingly large amount of ex-vets from the IDF who are without question trying to make a buck off of their military credit and I tend to stay wary of their students. My sifus have never been in any service and teach Krav as a basic hand-to-hand self defense class and nothing more. They are reluctant to even teach weapon disarms, not because they think they are unnecessary but because they don't have faith in the bulk of the students to effectively learn these techniques. The problem with Krav in my eyes is it's marketing and franchising. It is a very comprehensive system so it attracts many people for many different reasons. Some want the conditioning, some the self defense and a few are in to make themselves feel like they're commandos. This is the aspect of it I really don't like.
Also, I'm not trying to disrespect anyone's military experience - especially when it comes to those who are more or less forced into conscription. I do however know more than I want to about the Israel situation, but I'm not going to open that can of worms, as it is against the rules to discuss politics on a Martial Arts forum.
As it should be.
I am glad you benefit from your training and would never intentionally say word one to discourage you from it. Krav Maga is empowering and can really help you feel safe in your environment.
I also agree with you that posting on boards can lead to being flamed and disrespected, but I assure you that this is one of the most mature, informative and friendly sites on the web. You came to the right place!
Once again, I humbly apologize for any misunderstanding and hope I did not disrespect you or your school.
peace.

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#186039 - 12/02/05 02:42 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I knew what you were trying to say and why. I also understand the cultural differences, so I read the intent more than the words in most cases. I did not see it as disrespect. I tend to clamp down hard and fast if I think that is the case.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#186040 - 12/02/05 02:45 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: stvb7]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
You are only a short distance from myself, Razorfoot, MattJ and ToddR. Perhaps you would be willing to meet up with us at some point. I understand your points as well. I think there is a compromise somewhere in the middle, and you stated your points respectfuly.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#186041 - 12/03/05 11:57 AM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
I think the biggest difference you are likely to experience is going to be the intensity of the training. In my experience, martial arts training in the US is tending toward, how can I train without actually getting hit, bloodied or bruised. This certainly isn't Krav specific but come on, Krav took off commercially in the US because of Jennifer Lopez. I know there is still some great training to be had here but there is also some very watered down training. We had a guy that moved to town come visit our class and leave after a week because we hit too hard and he went to find a place more like his previous Krav class...

In my aikido life I found that most beginner's dreamed to training in Japan ala Steven Seagal. But then I'd hear from the people that actually trained in Japan and they told me that in general the sensei in Japan doesn't explain anything. He shows the technique and you are on your own to learn it. If you missed it, come back knext week and maybe you'll learn in.

But here in the states far too many people walk in a dojo (of any style) and ask how long until their first test, how long until black belt and why do I have to commit for 6 months or a year.

Very different mind sets in my opinion.

Chris

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#186042 - 12/03/05 12:16 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: RangerG]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
I find it interesting that so many discussions about Krav evolve into the "real vs commercial" or "military v. civilian" and maybe someone can explain this to me.

Now in my opinion, things like grenade disarms, weapon retention, and tactical shooting would fall under the military version but other than that, I'm at a loss to understand the distinction when it comes to hand combat.

Is the military punch secretly more devestating than the civilian punch? If I'm at the point of punching someone, I'm taking doing my best to land hard, accurately and often; is that military or civilian?

Is my low roundhouse kick supposed to be gentle in a "civilian" class but break the leg or knee in a "military" class?

In a grappling situation, an armbar is an armbreak if the guy doesn't tap or we choose to ignore the tap. Is there a more deadly armbar out there that nobody will teach me because I'm not special forces?

A choke is an unconscious attacker if he doesn't tap or we choose to ignore the tap.

Most of my background is in aikido, you know the one with alll the harmony talk. There is a throw called shihonage considered one of the foundations of the art that in class ends up with either a nice take down or a fancy breakfall. The throw if done as designed rips and tears the three joints of the arm and then drives the attackers head into the ground. The intent of the throw is to damage then kill the opponent on the battlefield. Hard to get much practice in if you do it that way but the ability is there. So does that make it a harmonious "civilian" technique or a brutal "military" technique?


The only distinction I really see is options on ending the confrontation but even that is a very blurry line. but doesn't it really my decision on how much and how many that determines the lethality of my actions?

What am I missing?

Chris

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#186043 - 12/03/05 12:25 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: stvb7]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Quote:

Some such as throat strikes are potentially deadly.



I've been punched in the throat by a drunk guy during a fight that I lost but I survived. I agree the potential is there but it is only a potential.

Quote:

If a man attacks me in a parking lot, I'm going to use every weapon available, and if I have the choice between punching him in the nose or the throat, I'm going to pick the throat.




The reality is that you may pick the throat but if you hit anything you are likely to hit somewhere in the vicinity of the nose or throat. Pinpoint striking against a moving combative opponent is harder than so many people seem to think.

Quote:

Disarming someone with a grenade can be very similar to disarming a someone who is throwing rocks or bottles.




The big difference to me is that someone throwing a rock or a bottle at me is not posing a true threat to my life, but that guy or gal with the grenade certainly is. In the case of the grenade (and I can't think of a single scenario but what the heck), unless we are within arms reach my best chance is to not be there. In the case of the rocks and/or bottles, I may choose to get hit with a rock or two in the process of accomplishing something. But then again I can't really create a scenario for this.

I don't mean to sound critical because overall this was a great post.

Chris


Edited by csinca (12/03/05 12:26 PM)

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#186044 - 12/03/05 05:04 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: csinca]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Having worked in a bar, I've seen bottles used as both clubs and missiles. There's also the scenario of throwing a bottle to break and shatter onto the guy below. Nasty.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#186045 - 12/03/05 05:22 PM Re: US or Israel? [Re: csinca]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
The intensity of training in any martial art differs from dojo to dojo. Some folks take longer to move from the basics to the advanced levels. We are a society that has enjoyed freedom from terrorism up to 9/11. We are also a society that has experienced a rise in violent attacks, and a drop in common courtesy between people. The general public is only now coming to the slow realization that a good part of their safety and security from petty theft to terrorist attack.... is in their own hands. The basic ability to defend ones self has become as necessary a skill set as the abitlity to read and write.

It is not that many generations ago in our own past that every citizen was as capable of defending themselves against hostile attack, as the citizens of Israel are today.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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