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#185960 - 09/14/05 04:25 PM Karate X2
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
What are the pros and cons of training in 2 styles of karate at the same time.
I am currently a shodan in a hybrid syle(Shotokan and Goju) but have the opportunity to train at Steve Rowes dojo in Wado ryu. (Steve Rowe is pretty much considered the dogs danglers over here in England)
I don't really want to stop training where I am but wonder how one style will affect the other.
I've read on here, quite often, that you should get a good grounding in 1 MA before trying another. Does this still work with reference to another style of the same art?
I'd be interested to hear from people that have trained 2 styles simultaneously, as to how it affected them, good or bad.
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#185961 - 09/14/05 04:51 PM Re: Karate X2 [Re: McSensei]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
for the past 6 mo. I've been training in Shorinryu, and maintain Goju kata on my own.

I've never trained at 2 schools at once before, I'm pretty sure it would be confusing (for me). The way of moving and stance transitioning alone is just different enough between Goju and Shorin to screw you up...never mind power gen. I could be doing a Goju kata and find myself in shizentai dachi instead of sanchin dachi. bad form, unless it was on purpose and I knew what I was doing

for now I can say that learning 2 arts at the same time would be near impossible unless they were completely different from each other. learning 2 similar but different fighting philosophies at once would just take twice as long to learn either one. IMO.

In other words, I wouldn't recommend it. I wouldn't even recommend what I am doing (study one, maintain one). I'm not sure it's a good idea yet....I'll need another year or so to decide.

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#185962 - 09/14/05 05:02 PM Re: Karate X2 [Re: McSensei]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I will have to concur with Kintama here. But my experience came about with a heavy Korean style influence prior to my karate training. The near similarities were killing me, not the totally alien techniques or delivery systems. It took me about 4 years to get rid of much of the TKD background that I couldn't use, and now the vestiges of the Korean style that one would see in my personal practice are not casual ones, but of choice.

Just on a basic level for punching, block utility, and especially kicking, one would have problems in similar, but different styles. This, then, means the body movement and footwork that you need to accomplish these techniques have to be slightly modified to accomplish whichever stylistic version you are doing currently.

I did not and do not see this problem when I practiced Judo and Aikido previously, or BJJ concurrently with my Karate.

-B

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#185963 - 09/15/05 02:01 PM Re: Karate X2 [Re: butterfly]
UofM Shorin Ryu Offline
Resident Forum Breakdancer

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 981
Let's just say I'm used to hearing "this isn't Isshinryu" during my Shorin ryu classes...
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Alea iacta est ~ Gauis Julius Caesar Ne quis nimis ~ Solon Nuts to cancer ~ Sanchin31

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#185964 - 09/15/05 03:01 PM Re: Karate X2 [Re: McSensei]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I personally had no problem training in Shorin-ryu, & Tang-soo-do, then TSD & Goju-ryu, stances shorter in the ryus and movement lighter in the ryus, kicks not as extended and techniques & kicks done at shorter distances, (also learned to cover grion/knees better in the ryus) and was able to cover longer distance if I had to or wanted to.

Katas less strength held after delivery TSD wants this, the ryus didnot, TSD emphasis on high kicking and different explaination of techniques in the kata, more use of hands. Tang-soo-do and Shorin-ryu forms are the same; the ryus uses lighter/softer moves. Goju kata/bunkias are totally different more grabbing and pushing, tearing more roughhousing with kung-fu like moves.

You just got to empty your cup and put it togather on your own time. Its best to have a solid basic (be 3rd-1st kyu or BB) of one system before cross training. Thats how I did it empty your mind, become a white belt all over again. Thats how I cross train ranked people, I train there mind then their body. They can hold their rank as long as its higher then 4th kyu.


Edited by Neko456 (09/15/05 03:02 PM)
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#185965 - 09/15/05 09:23 PM Re: Karate X2 [Re: Neko456]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
It looks like 3 against and 1 for at the moment but I'd like to pick up on something Kintama said about maintaining one.
That is precisely what I was intending to do. You see, the club I'm at, I train free. I was thinking of using these sessions as a way of keeping my fitness up as time at the Wado club is limited. I wouldn't mind the techniques slipping one way but not the other. Is this feasable or unlikely?
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#185966 - 09/15/05 09:30 PM Re: Karate X2 [Re: McSensei]
GojuRyuboy13 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 538
Loc: U.S. of A.
I also think that trying to karate styles, isn't a good idea. I started going to another school while attending my goju class still. Bad habits formed, and it affected everything. I felt weird, so I stopped and just continued Goju. I am now doing judo twice a week along with Goju. I think this is good because Judo is completely different and is almost in no even similiar to Goju style. I do Tai Chi, every once in a while, and yoga as well. but doing stuff every day is hard at times because of work.

Striking art and a wrestling/throwing art is a good combo. imo

how can shotokan and goju be mixed???? I don't see that at all


Edited by GojuRyuboy13 (09/15/05 09:32 PM)
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#185967 - 09/15/05 10:24 PM Re: Karate X2 [Re: McSensei]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
like I hinted...I have no idea if this is going to work out for me in the long term. Styles are like serious relationships: for better or for worse, you always tend to remember your first more vividly.
I grew up with Goju, and I'm not letting it go - I'm only taking Shorin to (hopefully) enhance my first. right now, I'm on the fence as to whether it will...I think it can enhance and add to the base art, but it's entirely up to the student to find the way it works for them...thats the part I'm doubting. I'm doubting my ability to make the two studies work for me. It's still too soon to tell... I haven't even toyed with the idea of doing any kind of blending...if/when I do, I'd keep the kata movements the same in each Art of course (but perhaps with some different application) and only blend the two within overall fighting style. The kata movements wouldn't reflect that difference, only the principals within he movements would be adjusted to suit me.
Not only is everyone's answer different, but how they go about finding it.

{Mr. Subliminal says: I'm guessing. what I actually 'plan' to do is just learn more Shorin, practice Goju and take it from there. no real plan at all, just seeing where it leads.}

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#185968 - 09/15/05 10:36 PM Re: Karate X2 [Re: McSensei]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
McSensei,

I think for some, perhaps in Don's case, one can maintain a mental and physical outlook that will allow you to keep centered for what you want to get out of your training.

The hard part will be trying to maintain your equiliberium when practicing within one style and keeping what you think is good from the other, all the while the instructor is going to implore you to do it the way they are teaching.

There is a cohesive structure to any particular art that allows techniques to flow from one to the other. If punching power or kicking techniques are generated one way in a particular style, but not done the other way...this can upset the balance of learning subsequent techniques that are dependent upon the motions and body movements of prior techniques.

If you are just trying to get certain elements out of the practice this might be fine...as long as you don't commit to losing what you deem worthy in the other system.

I kind of think of this way....and what Don said is correct, in my opinion, as long as you have a base (several years of study in a particular art) you can digest others....consider one art your primary, and the other your secondary, and then you can arrange your studies accordingly. I am just not fully convinced that one can do all these things at the same time. At least for myself.

-B

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#185969 - 09/16/05 10:16 AM Re: Karate X2 [Re: GojuRyuboy13]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
how can shotokan and goju be mixed???? I don't see that at all

Thats exactly what Mas Oyama did he blended Goju his 1st study & Shotokan to creat Kyoshin-kia (spelling might be wrong) his style. He also took the Korean Army's Taekwondo method of continuous full contact sparring & kicking and added to that emphasis of (full contact hands, elbow, knees to the body, kicking KOs to the body & head), sweeps, thigh kicks and throws.


Edited by Neko456 (09/16/05 10:30 AM)
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#185970 - 09/17/05 03:59 AM Re: Karate X2 [Re: McSensei]
jamesd Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 145
Loc: Essex,England
Hi Mcsensei,

I personally would jump at the chance to train with Steve Rowe, you've got a firm grounding in your current system, so i can't see how any harm can be done, if you consider your current style to be your mother system, then it's good to go out and experiment with other practices, because apart from furthering your knowledge sometimes it can make a refreshing change! kind regards,

James
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#185971 - 09/17/05 10:52 AM Re: Karate X2 [Re: McSensei]
Shidokai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 162
Loc: Fukuoka, Japan
As I was once advised, "Forget your other style." If you're going to cross train in two similar styles at the same time, I'd say go for it, but just do whatever it takes to forget that you ever learned another style. When I do Goju-ryu, I tell myself beforehand that I don't know Shorin-ryu. I don't know how to snap like a whip and I don't know about light movement. I don't know linear blocks, hip chambers, or using deep stances.

If you can make something like that a mantra and go back to feeling like a beginner, and resist the urge to compare your two styles while you're on the dojo floor, you can make it work. Basically, you have to know how different the styles are, and then tell yourself to work against what your body wants to do.
_________________________
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft. - Teddy Roosevelt

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#185972 - 09/17/05 01:30 PM Re: Karate X2 [Re: Shidokai]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
you make ShorinRyu sound like Shotokan.
linear blocking, hip chamber, deep stances in Shorin? more like angular blocking/body positioning, midbody guard hand, and never stances which are too deep.
There is some overlap between similar styles, cat-stance for example is identical between goju and shorin (as far as I can tell and been shown).
I think I know what you mean though, when you say 'forget' the other style...it's like when you learn another language, it's always better to think in terms of the language instead of mentally translating from one language to another.

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#185973 - 09/17/05 09:13 PM Re: Karate X2 [Re: Kintama]
Shidokai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 162
Loc: Fukuoka, Japan
In Kobayashi Shorin, we start working from zenkutsu as the first stance. It's not a deep zenkutsu, but it's deeper than a Sanchin dachi. The more standard stance then becomes uke-ashi dachi, probably similar to Shizentai dachi. We don't have a shiko dachi, and instead use heiko dachi. From what I can tell, our neko-ashi dachi is the same...except higher. We chamber at the hip like Shotokan as well, and while a lot of what we do is angular, it's really linear angular, point to point movements in explosive patterns. There's also a lot of deep stepping and we don't do a midbody guard hand, as a rule.

Kobayashi Shorin-ryu has almost the same lineage as Shotokan, with the branching at Chibana, but both were affected by Itosu's attempts to get the art put into the Okinawan public middle schools. Funakoshi and Chibana both interpreted what their teachers had wanted to do with the arts, and in some ways both went in something of the same direction, with notable differences.
_________________________
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft. - Teddy Roosevelt

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#185974 - 09/17/05 09:55 PM Re: Karate X2 [Re: Shidokai]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
interesting, thanks for explaining. The guard hand is a bit surprizing...that would indeed be a difficult habit to break for me!

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#185975 - 09/21/05 03:04 PM Re: Karate X2 [Re: McSensei]
roniwankan Offline
Member

Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 99
Loc: Brazil, Goias
Differences between karate styles lives basically on kata.
The punchs and kicks are almost the same, and sometimes change the names.
What will really happen is the winning of more kinds of kata.
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KARATE DO GA MUZUKASHII MICHI ARUKI NI DESSU, SHIKASHI YOI MONO WO YARI MASSU.

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#185976 - 09/21/05 11:45 PM Re: Karate X2 [Re: roniwankan]
Shidokai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 162
Loc: Fukuoka, Japan
...Not on your life. No. Not correct. Uh-uh. Not a chance. Impossible. Not gonna happen. Wrong.

Kata is the first difference. What you just said is the same as saying that wrestling and Judo are the same thing. They're not. Not even a little bit.

A kick is a kick, and a punch is a punch, that's correct, but the subtleties of the power generation, ways that people use their bodies, and the delivery are all different.

If you mean "kata" as in the Japanese "shikata," which is "way of doing things," then yes, you're correct. But the forms are not the thing that define the form in the same way as power generation or styles of body movement. Those are the big differences, and they're quite hard to change when you understand them.
_________________________
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft. - Teddy Roosevelt

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