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#185840 - 09/14/05 01:41 PM Veg and Non Veg
mouli Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 97
Loc: Chennai, Tamilnadu, India
Hi guys,

I would like to know whether you can get all the needed energy from vegetables only. By Veg only, I mean No Meat.
I hear some people saying that you can be strong and have energy only if you eat meat. At the same time, I also hear people saying that consuming a lot of meat causes health problems.
Here, I dont intend to comment or criticize anyone.
I'm a vegetarian and I practice MA.
Can you get the same protien content through Vegetables, what you get by eating meat.
So is there any difference w.r.t power, energy etc., between a Veggie guy and a Non Veggie Guy.
Your comments are greatly appreciated.

Mouli

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#185841 - 09/14/05 04:25 PM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: mouli]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
The answer is yes. How do I know this ... check out Bill Pearl ( http://www.billpearl.com/ ). This guy was big in his day and is a legend. I read Bill's bio and he switched to being a vegetarian and still is. He even competed while being a vegetarian and won many titles.

I can't remember word for word but he says the body eventually adapts to the diet change and converts what is needed to energy. Of course Bill also took multiple supplements and admits to steriod use in his earlier career. He later realized that he needed to lead a healthier life for himself and his followers.

THE MAN: http://www.billpearl.com/career.asp

He even competed up into his 50's ... man ... what a guy.

"Bill Pearl, 74, is a five-time Mr. Universe and author of the best-selling bodybuilding books, Keys to the Inner Universe, Getting Stronger, and Getting in Shape. He has personally coached more major contest winners than anyone else in history. At his own peak as a bodybuilder when he last won the Universe in 1971 at age 41, he weighed 242 pounds at a height of 5'10" and his arms measured 21 inches!"

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#185842 - 09/15/05 02:58 PM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: Dereck]
mouli Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 97
Loc: Chennai, Tamilnadu, India
Hi,

I read in some article long before that a person's mannerisms change according to his food habbits.
So do you think that people who take Non veg stuff are more aggresive. Obviously you can see this difference in animals.
I do accept that Bill Pearl was a Vegetarian and still was strong. But his parents could be Non Veg.
So do you think Bill Pearl being a Vegetarian would have had the same power and energy say if his parents and 2 or 3 of his great grand parents were Vegetarians.
This question remains unanswered to me for so long.
Whats your view on this?

Mouli

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#185843 - 09/15/05 03:29 PM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: mouli]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Interesting.

Obviously genetics plays a factor in all of us. Genetics decides how tall we will be, how big our extremities will be, and how our bodies will develop BUT how we change our bodies from day to day is up to us.

If Bill Pearl came from a vegetarian family over multiple generations and he worked his body the same way he did from the beginning, he would still be that person he is today or at least in my opinion.

When we are born we get DNA from both of our parents and our parents are made up of DNA from their parents and so on and so on. We are what we are and cannot change ourselves on a molecular level but on a day to day level we can. What we eat gives us energy so if we eat more we can get further energy. I could come from a generation of thin people but I control if I can get fat. When the amount taken in is greater then the amount used then it has to go somewhere. Of course genetics will dictate where it gets deposited and genetics will dictate the amount of fat it can burn so of course I may put fat on less then one person but more then another person. Now if I exercise and push my self to my limits, take in the needed fuel and nutrients, I can become stronger and develop larger muscles then my past generation. BUT does this mean that my lineage will be larger NO.

Can food we eat change people on a molecular level? That is a good questions and I can only provide my thoughts. With all of the preservatives, steroids, chemicals, etc. used in processing of dairy, meats, and other food sources could this explain why many youth of today are larger or develop earlier? Or maybe the food we eat doesn't change us on a molecular level but activates genes in each of us that we already have but activates it earlier. That we all posses this capability but some just arrive at it sooner. That when a mother nurses her child with chemically induced milk from a steroid filled cow that these activate the genes in that child to develop quicker in some areas but this same child without this milk would still have developed the same over time. When you look from yourself to your parents, siblings and other family or look at past generations are there not similarities. Sure there are always anomalies but for the most part isn't there a pattern? A pattern or genetic make up?

I'd have to give this further thought but good question. Your thoughts?

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#185844 - 09/15/05 03:51 PM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: mouli]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Sorry, forgot about the mannerism question.

Do foods affect mannerisms in people? They do in animals and I will use the ferret for an example. My brother-in-law used to have two of them. He was told never to feed them meat ... sounds like a gremlin and don't get it wet. The ferrets were all fine but then they did get some meat and they did turn more aggressive. Many other animals will get this way ... take pirahanas or sharks for instance ... blood drives them into a frenzie.

Now this helps me explain this a little better. Each of us in our genetics has the capability to be aggressive or not. Now what we have that the animal kingdom doesn't have is an advanced brain. We can think things through and make decisions to control ourselves or not. Some obviously think less but this is that person and I don't think that eating a particular food has the same affect that it does on the animal kingdom.

If somebody eats nothing but junk then this person will most likely be slow and lazy and lethargic and possible more laid back. Somebody who drinks coffee and caffiene products excessively could be more hyper. Yes it affects us but only to a small degree. I'd hate one day for somebody to come up with the defence that the guy had a huge steak at The Keg and then killed somebody for denting his car with their door because he was on a protein high.

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#185845 - 09/15/05 04:10 PM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: Dereck]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
As well as Bill pearl, there was a great 80's pro bodybuilder called francis Benfatto, who, as I recall claimed to be vegan!

Thing is that you can get all the nutrients you need from a vegetarian (non meat) diet, but you have to be more up on the nutritional make up and content of what you are eating. Most importantly in this respect is the amino acids present in non meat protein sources. Meat tends to have a better spread of the essential 8 amino acids than vegeteable protein. The answer is 'complimentation'. This means that if chicken contains aminos 1-8, beans contain amino's 3,6 and 8, and lentils contain aminos 1,2,4,5 and 7; a combination of beans and lentils in a meal will give you the same quality of proteins as you would find in a chicken breast. This example is not accurate nutritionaly, it merely offers an example of the theory.
Animal, vegetable, mineral, the body doesnt care once it is broken down into its nutrients via digestion.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#185846 - 09/16/05 06:32 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: Cord]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
What about fatty acids? Fish oils? Omega vitamins?
What about if you enjoy meat? What about making sure you eat healthy and balanced and not worry about the little differences in preference created by a diet paranoid and lazy society.
People in the Mediteranean live longer (fact) is it because they are vegetarians? Is it because they are carnivores? Neither, its because they eat balanced diet of meat AND vegetables, and try to avoid processed foods.

You want to be strong and healthy, eat natural foods. Doesnt matter what. And just try and limit the intake of saturated fat, but think about it, do you think eating some cheese is going to make you weaker?

I hate all this diet crap.
You want to know the secret?
Exercise, eat fruit and vegetables and meat and everything mother nature provides and cook with olive oil instead of lard.
Thats it.
Of course if you are a bodybuilder you take supplements and your diet has to more specific but are you a bodybuilder?

Someone actually said once that humans where never supposed to eat meat and that their stomachs are not designed to digest it. What a load of manure! I can digest meat just fine, in fact I fought and won a battle with a 15ounce steak last night and I m the better for it!


Edited by MAGr (09/16/05 06:35 AM)

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#185847 - 09/16/05 07:28 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: MAGr]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
MAGr, for many, vegetarianism isnt 'diet crap' its a choice based on them feeling uncomfortable about their food coming at the expense of an animals life. I have no problem with that. I am omnivorous, but I would not impose this choice on anyone, any more than I would want to be forced to be vegetarian.

Your point about EFA's and the like, only goes to further illustarate my point that you must be more nutritionaly aware to make the lifestyle balanced and healthy for you.

Flax oil contains EFA's and does not compromise a vegetarian lifestyle.

The question was if a vegetarian diet can be nutritionaly balanced and healthy, not if you agree with it.
The answer is yes providing you educate yourself in sound nutitional facts and apply them to your eating choices.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#185848 - 09/16/05 07:44 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: Cord]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

MAGr, for many, vegetarianism isnt 'diet crap' its a choice based on them feeling uncomfortable about their food coming at the expense of an animals life



Hey man I dont have any problem with that either (more meat for me! )

Quote:

The question was if a vegetarian diet can be nutritionaly balanced and healthy



As nutritionally balanced as eating meat also? No. Why? Well, if it was then you wouldnt have to watch your intake so carefully, and would not have to take supplements for what you are missing from not eating meats. There is a way to make eating just vegetables work, but you have to involve external forces, its not balanced on its own.

Quote:

The answer is yes providing you educate yourself in sound nutitional facts and apply them to your eating choices.


If there is a 'providing you do this' after a 'yes' then its not a very convincing 'yes' IMO

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#185849 - 09/16/05 07:53 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: mouli]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
You can be strong, energetic and healthy living on a vegetarian diet. You can get the same amount of protein from vegetables, beans and pulses as meat aslong as they are combined with other things like rice or wheat-based foods. While I have to agree there are a few vegetarians I know whose diet is appalling because they have not done their research. However I also know other vegetarians who live on a healthy vegetarian diet and include myself. You could say the same about alot of meat-eaters though.

Personally since becoming vegetarian, I feel more energetic, my immune system seems to have improved and generally feel healthy. I go for regular check-ups at the doctors and each time I come out with top marks. I go the the gym 2-3 times a week and aikido 1-2 times a week.

To say it is bad to eat too much meat, I think is too much of a blurry statement. With farming methods nowadays feeding most livestock antibiotics and other drugs, I think this is what is more potentially harmful. As most livestock don't get much room to move or exercise meat now usually contains more fat than before. Chicken should no longer be considered a healthy, low-fat meat especially if it is from a farm which allows no room to move and the chickens are feeding constantly. They (scientific study carried out on chickens from a farm in the UK which was aired on a food programme) now reckon that chicken meat can contain up to 40% fat.

To summarize, like everything, consume foods in moderation, this is the key.
_________________________
Chanters

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#185850 - 09/16/05 08:05 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: MAGr]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Quote:

As nutritionally balanced as eating meat also? No. Why? Well, if it was then you wouldnt have to watch your intake so carefully, and would not have to take supplements for what you are missing from not eating meats.




Just for the record, I take no supplements. I make sure my diet contains everything I need. As I have mentioned before, providing you are on a good vegetarian diet, there's is nothing you can't get from a vegetable, bean or pulse than from eating meat. And a veggie diet CAN be balanced on its own.

Quote:


Quote:


The answer is yes providing you educate yourself in sound nutitional facts and apply them to your eating choices.




If there is a 'providing you do this' after a 'yes' then its not a very convincing 'yes' IMO




There are numerous meat eaters who live on a terrible diet, suffer regular ailments, are over-weight and have high blood pressure. This is down to lack of nutritional awareness or knowledge. Just because someone eats meat doesn't mean they're on a healthy diet.
_________________________
Chanters

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#185851 - 09/16/05 08:49 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: Chanters]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Chanters, you put it as clearly as I ever could. Omnivores should take just as much of an interest in their nutritional balance as vegetarians- plenty of meat eaters out there just a short step away from scurvy
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#185852 - 09/17/05 12:12 PM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: mouli]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Hitler was a vegetarian, was he aggressive?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#185853 - 09/19/05 07:16 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: trevek]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Well, that killed the debate....
_________________________
Chanters

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#185854 - 09/19/05 02:23 PM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: trevek]
mouli Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 97
Loc: Chennai, Tamilnadu, India
Hi Trevek,

Hitler was not a Vegetarian.
He was prescribed a veg diet to cure him of flatulence and a chronic stomach disorder.
Please do read the article in the following link. You'll come to know.
http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/hitler.html

Cheers,
Mouli

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#185855 - 09/19/05 03:09 PM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: mouli]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Hi Mouli,

thanks for the link. Very interesting. Even historians such as Simon Schama have used the alleged vegetarianism of AH as a contrast to the buffalo hunting Goebbels.

Needless to say, I withdraw that comment.

However, my wife IS a vegetarian and you wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of her!!!
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#185856 - 09/19/05 05:22 PM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: trevek]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Hitler was a vegetarian, was he aggressive?




Technically, Hitlers psychological make-up was a mix of manipulative and cruel. He had an army to be aggressive for him.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#185857 - 09/19/05 08:04 PM Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Chanters]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

Just for the record, I take no supplements. I make sure my diet contains everything I need. As I have mentioned before, providing you are on a good vegetarian diet, there's is nothing you can't get from a vegetable, bean or pulse than from eating meat. And a veggie diet CAN be balanced on its own.




Tsk, tsk, tsk, Chanters.

Surely, you remember this thread:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15763644/page/0/fpart/all/vc/1

And surely you remember my post concerning what a vegan diet lacks:

"Stephen Barnes, Ph.D., N.D., compiled a list of problems with the Vegan diet in the Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients:

1. True Vitamin B12 (as opposed to B12 analogs) cannot be obtained from plant sources.

2. The human body's need for Vitamin D cannot be met with sunlight (and the D2 form in plant sources is far inferior to the full-complex form found in animal fats).

3. True Vitamin A (retinol) cannot be obtained from plant sources. As with the other nutrients listed above, the body likewise makes a far better use of retinol, as opposed to converting Vitamin A from plant-sourced beta-carotene.


In addition to the things listed by Dr. Barnes, I would like to mention the following:

1. The best source of the Omega-3 fatty acids EPA and DHA--fish body oils. Flaxseed oil contains a different Omega-3 (ALA), which the body can convert to EPA and DHA, but this conversion doesn't always happen consistently (and for what it's worth, women apparently convert it better than men).

2. Animal-sourced proteins (egg, milk, & meat) consistently rate higher than soy on virtually every protein scale known--the Protein Efficiency Ratio (PER), Biological Value (BV), etc. Soy is only a "complete" protein in the most limited sense, as it is naturally low in the amino acid methionine (modern manufacturers of soy protein powders modify this by adding extra methionine)."


My thoughts on other vegetarian diets can be found on that thread.

Best,

A_M_P
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#185858 - 09/19/05 08:31 PM Hitler's vegetarianism [Re: mouli]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

Hi Trevek,

Hitler was not a Vegetarian.
He was prescribed a veg diet to cure him of flatulence and a chronic stomach disorder.
Please do read the article in the following link. You'll come to know.
http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/hitler.html

Cheers,
Mouli




That site is clearly a biased source.

It is also wrong.

Hitler's vegetarianism is well known.

Here's a pro-vegetarian article which emphasizes that Hitler was indeed a vegetarian:

http://www.geocities.com/hitlerwasavegetarian/

And another mildly amusing one:

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/gbase/opinion/Content?oid=oid:45037
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#185859 - 09/19/05 09:24 PM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: Dereck]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

Sorry, forgot about the mannerism question.

Do foods affect mannerisms in people? They do in animals and I will use the ferret for an example. My brother-in-law used to have two of them. He was told never to feed them meat ... sounds like a gremlin and don't get it wet. The ferrets were all fine but then they did get some meat and they did turn more aggressive. Many other animals will get this way ... take pirahanas or sharks for instance ... blood drives them into a frenzie.

Now this helps me explain this a little better. Each of us in our genetics has the capability to be aggressive or not. Now what we have that the animal kingdom doesn't have is an advanced brain. We can think things through and make decisions to control ourselves or not. Some obviously think less but this is that person and I don't think that eating a particular food has the same affect that it does on the animal kingdom.

If somebody eats nothing but junk then this person will most likely be slow and lazy and lethargic and possible more laid back. Somebody who drinks coffee and caffiene products excessively could be more hyper. Yes it affects us but only to a small degree. I'd hate one day for somebody to come up with the defence that the guy had a huge steak at The Keg and then killed somebody for denting his car with their door because he was on a protein high.




Ferrets are carnivores, they have to eat meat to survive. What exactly did your borther-in-law feed them?
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#185860 - 09/20/05 03:01 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Armed_Man_Piker]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Talking from personal experience and knowing other vegetarians on a good diet, the fact that I rarely suffer ailments (maybe 1 cold a year if that), am declared fit and healthy by my GP, lead a very active life I can say a good veggie diet can provide you with a long and healthy life and you needn't depend on meat. I'm sorry I don't have sources from people who have written about a vegan diet but I'm not talking about veganism, I'm talking my personal experience being a vegetarian.

'Research' also proved the earth was flat once, but we know better now.
_________________________
Chanters

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#185861 - 09/20/05 06:18 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Chanters]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

'Research' also proved the earth was flat once, but we know better now.




The guy writes a whole medical proof on why there are some things better derived from meat and your answer is that??
Dont write lies and stuff you made up just to prove a point which is wrong anyway. There was no reasearch about the earth and that is why they thought it was flat. If you find any piece of research that supports your arguement I will agree, but till then, you are just making things up to sound clever.

Death to vegies!!!
Long live the meat!!!

This belongs to the tales part but is more relevant here.
I was staying at a friend's halls of residence at his college for a few days, and we had just come back from Greece from our holidays. Now I dont know if you have Greek friends but those of you who do, you will know that we are very fond of the quality and amount of meat in Greece and a vegetarian there would be looked upon like a freak. So when we came back my friend's mum had put in his suitcase some liver, some guts, some chops, some steak etc. (in fact it was proably a whole cow but had to be cut up to fit in the bag). Anyway, he was living next to some english people who were adamant vegans. One day when we were cooking and they were chastising we got a surprise inspection by the dorms' supervisor. As we bolted for the door to go back and clean whatever evidence of wrongdoings was left about, we threw the meat we were holding to the vegan guys standing there. Apparently the supervisor alarm was a joke thought up by our tree hugging friends to get back to us for cooking meat so indescriminantly. Only when we got back to the kitchen they were standing there, one of them with guts strewn around his head and arms all shocked and unable to move, and the other was staring at the floor where a liver was sliding along unable to speek. The look on their faces was priceless (I guess the joke was on them in the end).


Edited by MAGr (09/20/05 06:28 AM)

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#185862 - 09/20/05 07:11 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: MAGr]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Death to vegies!!!
Long live the meat!!!




Bit harsh dude! Can we make an exception for pretty good looking veggies? Remember, salads are cheaper than steaks when your buying dinner! Cheaper date!

I managed to cure my girlfriend of her veggieness. On Sunday night she (well I say she, but I actually nicked half of it!) had the greatest veal steak I have ever tasted, and since she has been eating meat she has said it has had a marked improvement in her health. See only ever eats fresh meat and it is always mixed with lots of veg. I do put this down more due to an unbalanced diet as a veggie, more than the inclusion of meat. But, whatever I cured her!

On the flipside to that, inspired by Cord's fruit and mixed nut breakfast mentioned in another thread, I've switched from having a bacon sarnie for breakfast to a fruit and mixed nut one instead. Since doing so, my mid morning larthargic spell has gone completely. Since swapping I've felt a lot more alert and awake.

Another thing that I have found is that it also has supressed my need to snack. A bacon sandwich just didn't fill me up, and within an hour or two I'd be chowing down either an early lunch or some crappy snack. I've got a very fast metabolism, but since switching to the new breakfast, I get by with a banana or two till lunch. When I was eating more dodgy foods I found I was eating alot more. Is there any particular reason for this???
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#185863 - 09/20/05 07:19 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Gavin]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Hey man, also like fruit and vegetables, but I aint a rabbit.
I de like to eat one though!

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#185864 - 09/20/05 07:27 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: MAGr]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Mmmmmmmmmmmmm.....rabbit!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#185865 - 09/20/05 07:47 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: MAGr]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Quote:

The guy writes a whole medical proof on why there are some things better derived from meat and your answer is that??
Dont write lies and stuff you made up just to prove a point which is wrong anyway. There was no reasearch about the earth and that is why they thought it was flat. If you find any piece of research that supports your arguement I will agree, but till then, you are just making things up to sound clever.




Nothing I have mentioned have been lies or "stuff" I've made up. Once again I will say (which I have already posted earlier but for some reason you seem to miss this point), I AM TALKING FROM EXPERIENCE! I was trying to make a point that sometimes what at one stage may have been researched and 'proven' have sometimes in the past been disproven by other research. An example would be 'Benecol', a spread in the UK which claimed to be clinically proven to reduce cholesterol at that time but it turned out that it didn't. But 'research' suggested that it did. 'Research' also suggested margarine was far more healthier than butter, but now other 'research' has been issued saying that margarine is bad for you and is 1% away from being a plastic. Rats didn't even recognise it as a food source! Research can be manipulated into whatever outcome the author wants. Furthermore, how do you define 'research'? (Rhetorical question, I don't expect an answer.)

Quote:

Death to vegies!!!
Long live the meat!!!



This only highlights your immaturity on the matter and serves absolutely no purpose to this debate. At least if you're going to hate us get your spelling right, its VEGGIES.
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#185866 - 09/20/05 08:00 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Chanters]
MAGr Offline
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yo!! relax, just a joke.

But you gotta admit that earth flat thing was a lame arguement. People though it was flat not because of bad research but because of NO research. The only research rewuired is to see if it had an edge, obviously that never happened therefore no research. As soon as someone figured out an easier way to calculate it (moon trajectory etc) they accepted (bar christians) that the earth is round.

There is a big difference between proving something and researching something and coming to a conclusion.

Quote:

This only highlights your immaturity on the matter and serves absolutely no purpose to this debate. At least if you're going to hate us get your spelling right, its VEGGIES



This only highlights your lack of a sense of humour, and PROVES that veGGies suffer from a distinct lack of relevant nutrients necessary to promote an easy outlook on life and a 'chilled' attitude. Otherwise known as constipation

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#185867 - 09/20/05 08:12 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: MAGr]
Chanters Offline
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Loc: Manchester, UK
Quote:

This only highlights your lack of a sense of humour, and PROVES that veGGies suffer from a distinct lack of relevant nutrients necessary to promote an easy outlook on life and a 'chilled' attitude. Otherwise known as constipation




Now THAT was humorous. Although veggies do tend to have better bowel functionality because they don't have all that heavy flesh to digest!
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#185868 - 09/20/05 08:14 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Gavin]
JasonM Offline
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Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
Gavin,

Do you have the link to that post on Fruits and mixed nuts? I searched but could not find it. I would love to read it and maybe adapt it as well.

Thanks...
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#185869 - 09/20/05 08:32 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: JasonM]
Gavin Offline
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Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
It was in Johns thread about diet and habbits n' stuff here. Cord was only stating that was what he had for breakfast.

A couple of weeks ago I was in the local super market on the way to work, buying some milk and noticed that had a salad bar, which has a mixed fruits and nuts section. I just remembered taking the micky out of Cord for eating it, and thought "Well, he knows what his talking about....I'll try it out!" I have, it's worked out cheaper and I feel better for it (Cheers mate BTW!). I'm sure if you we ask him nicely, he'll tell us the why's and wherefore's of it!
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#185870 - 09/20/05 09:08 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Gavin]
Cord Offline
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Loc: Cambridge UK.
Glad you are enjoying the fruit and nutty goodness

The reason is simple. Nuts are full of unsaturated fat, so very energy rich. 1 gram of protein or carboydrate has an energy yield of 4 calories. 1 gram of fat has an energy yield of 9 calories.
That is why 'high fat' snacks are associated with obesity, a little goes a long way to tip the energy scale against you
Nuts are often seen as unhealthy because it is our culture to coat them in chocolate, sugar glaze or salt. The nut itself is a good source of nutrition,it just got in with a bad crowd

Unsalted nuts, combined with dried fruits, have been a staple of backpacks the world over. Trekking, hiking, survival persuits etc. all are energy intensive, and 'trail mix' as it is commonly known, is a compact, portable way of avoiding starvation.

Another advantage is that because you are eating a concentrated source of 'good' fats, your production of ketones is kept high- these little fella's help break down and process fats into useable energy, as well as being crucial in the metabilisation of stored body fat.
This is the same thinking behind the high fat percentage allowed in 'atkins' eating- it is known as a ketogenic diet.
I believe in balance so dont advocate extremes, but a little theory can go a long way when applied to sensible eating.

TADAAA!!! one why and wherefor complete as requested
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#185871 - 09/20/05 09:12 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Cord]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
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Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

TADAAA!!! one why and wherefor complete as requested




I thank you sir! Now I definately have a new found appreciation of nuts!
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Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#185872 - 09/20/05 09:18 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Gavin]
Cord Offline
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Loc: Cambridge UK.
There really is no answer to that
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#185873 - 09/20/05 09:19 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Chanters]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

Talking from personal experience and knowing other vegetarians on a good diet, the fact that I rarely suffer ailments (maybe 1 cold a year if that), am declared fit and healthy by my GP, lead a very active life I can say a good veggie diet can provide you with a long and healthy life and you needn't depend on meat. I'm sorry I don't have sources from people who have written about a vegan diet but I'm not talking about veganism, I'm talking my personal experience being a vegetarian.




Chanters,

Allow me to refresh your memory--you said:

As I have mentioned before, providing you are on a good vegetarian diet, there's is nothing you can't get from a vegetable, bean or pulse than from eating meat.

I posted in reply to the statement above, to show the folks here that you are wrong on this specific issue. You are misleading people with some of your statements.

However, you also said that you're "not talking about veganism", so tell us, what type of vegetarian are you, and what animal products do you still consume?

Best,

A_M_P
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#185874 - 09/20/05 09:23 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Armed_Man_Piker]
MAGr Offline
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Also I would like to ask about the availiability of all those exotic vegetarian supplements that you would need to replace meat with.
Do I need to eat a thousand different type of pulse, bean, soy, and other green stuff to compensate for the lack of anything else? Or are they quite common?

Also I understand people who dont eat meat because they dont like the taste or it upsets their stomach, but I dont understand the ideological side of it.

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#185875 - 09/20/05 09:25 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Cord]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

Nuts are often seen as unhealthy because it is our culture to coat them in chocolate, sugar glaze or salt. The nut itself is a good source of nutrition,it just got in with a bad crowd




One caveat here that Cord failed to mention--to be truly healthy, nuts should also be raw.

The "good fats" in nuts are, like any other fats (vegetable oil, for instance), subject to damage from heat. Too much heat wreaks good fats--turns them into a bad fat, in fact.

Quote:

Unsalted nuts, combined with dried fruits, have been a staple of backpacks the world over.




So has jerky!

Quote:

Trekking, hiking, survival persuits etc. all are energy intensive, and 'trail mix' as it is commonly known, is a compact, portable way of avoiding starvation.




Ditto for the dried beef and mutton.
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#185876 - 09/20/05 09:29 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Armed_Man_Piker]
Chanters Offline
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The difference between a vegan and a vegetarian is that a vegan doesn't eat meat or fish and also doesn't consume dairy products like milk, cheese and eggs. I eat dairy products but do not eat meat or fish or any products which contain gelatine or rennet etc.
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#185877 - 09/20/05 09:29 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: MAGr]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

Also I understand people who dont eat meat because they dont like the taste or it upsets their stomach, but I dont understand the ideological side of it.




Look at the PETA website and their marketing materials. But actually be intersted in what they are saying, don't go to laugh at the "tree huggers" you so fondly throw animal parts at.


Aside: It's interesting, I never see the vegetarians starting flame wars on these threads, it's always the omnivores who sart slinging insults and making fun of the others...
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#185878 - 09/20/05 09:32 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Armed_Man_Piker]
Cord Offline
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Good point one armed piker, (couldnt you have a shorter name?- can I just call you 'pikey' in future responses? )

My explanation was not in continuance of the vegetarian/meat argument, merely addressing a direct question. I eat Biltong (south african style beef jerky) at least once per week, if not more- cracking good stuff for omnivors.
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#185879 - 09/20/05 09:33 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: MAGr]
Chanters Offline
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Quote:

lso I understand people who dont eat meat because they dont like the taste or it upsets their stomach, but I dont understand the ideological side of it.




My personal reason is that I see too much suffering and unecessary death in the world already and feel I don't want to contribute to it any more than I already do. If I can live without it then why not?


Edited by Chanters (09/20/05 09:34 AM)
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Chanters

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#185880 - 09/20/05 09:38 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Chanters]
MAGr Offline
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Loc: London, home: Athens
I know plenty of 'ideological' vegetarians who go and buy petrol with their cars. I dont want to start a political debate, but you understand what I mean?

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#185881 - 09/20/05 09:44 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Chanters]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

My personal reason is that I see too much suffering and unecessary death in the world already and feel I don't want to contribute to it any more than I already do. If I can live without it then why not?




Perfectly reasonable logic, that I neither condone, nor condemn, and i suggest we all agree to disagree before this so far agreeable thread inevitably starts going round in ever more angry circles
We dont need a nutritional version of the MMA/TMA argument do we?

' who would win- Ali, with some BJJ training and trained on a vegetarian diet, or Tyson, with a BB in TKD fed purely on raw steak? '

*Cord runs screaming into the woods with 4 kilos of trail mix till the dust settles*
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#185882 - 09/20/05 09:45 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: MAGr]
Chanters Offline
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Registered: 06/16/04
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Loc: Manchester, UK
Yep, I'm also working on that but without getting too political, our government don't want us using ethanol or vegetable oil to run our vehicles on! I know I'm far from perfect, but I'm making a start and do try to be an ethical consumer.

Now I await your name calling... what's it gonna be? Soap dodger? Tree hugger? Peace fairy? Sandal wearer?
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Chanters

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#185883 - 09/20/05 09:49 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Cord]
Chanters Offline
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Registered: 06/16/04
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Loc: Manchester, UK
Quote:

*Cord runs screaming into the woods with 4 kilos of trail mix till the dust settles*





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Chanters

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#185884 - 09/20/05 09:50 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Cord]
JoelM Offline
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Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

*Cord runs screaming into the woods with 4 kilos of trail mix till the dust settles*




*Follows Cord limping along with a bag of beef jerky.*
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#185885 - 09/20/05 09:53 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Chanters]
MAGr Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Cord-
I m trying to pretend I m working, and its not going very well when I crack up in front of my computer screen every 5 minutes! Stop it!

Quote:

I know I'm far from perfect, but I'm making a start and do try to be an ethical consumer



Good on you mate. If only everyone would be as counscienscious as you. no joke this time.

lol at 'sandal wearer'!

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#185886 - 09/20/05 09:54 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: MAGr]
Chanters Offline
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Cheers MAGr!
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Chanters

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#185887 - 09/20/05 10:02 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Chanters]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

The difference between a vegan and a vegetarian is that a vegan doesn't eat meat or fish and also doesn't consume dairy products like milk, cheese and eggs. I eat dairy products but do not eat meat or fish or any products which contain gelatine or rennet etc.




I'm well aware of the difference between vegans and other vegetarians--I simply asked what level of vegetarian you are. You're a lacto-ovo-vegetarian, so we've settled that one.

And because of that, you are getting nutrients that a vegan does not.
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#185888 - 09/20/05 10:10 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: Cord]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I could live quite happily on beans and rice for the rest of my life...with some greens on the side...because I really like them. And I despise the taste of fruit. I break out in hives when I drink orange juice, and if I touch tomatos my skin will break open and bleed.

How about an argument that, philosophy aside, each individual might have different needs...and that not one diet can really fit everyone?

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#185889 - 09/20/05 10:12 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Chanters]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

My personal reason is that I see too much suffering and unecessary death in the world already and feel I don't want to contribute to it any more than I already do. If I can live without it then why not?




Do you get all your veggies and grains from organic farms?

I ask this because, if you don't, you're still a part of the suffering "problem".

How so? Well, you know all those big, sci-fi-looking farm machines used on ordinary farms? Those devices end up slicing and dicing an awful lot of little critters.
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#185890 - 09/20/05 10:19 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Cord]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

Good point one armed piker, (couldnt you have a shorter name?- can I just call you 'pikey' in future responses? )




Hehe, "Pikey"--has a sort of gypsy bare knuckle boxer ambience to it.

Sure, "Pikey" or AMP is fine.

Quote:

My explanation was not in continuance of the vegetarian/meat argument, merely addressing a direct question. I eat Biltong (south african style beef jerky) at least once per week, if not more- cracking good stuff for omnivors.




Biltong--sounds good.

I like venison jerky too.
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#185891 - 09/20/05 10:31 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: harlan]
Chanters Offline
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Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
I think there might be something in that. Could where we live play a part in what our body needs more of a certain vitamin, mineral or other nutrient than maybe somebody who lives in a different part of the world or country? Do we have different chemical balances in our body? An interesting point.
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#185892 - 09/20/05 10:36 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: Chanters]
MAGr Offline
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Posts: 1147
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Quote:

Could where we live play a part in what our body needs more of a certain vitamin, mineral or other nutrient than maybe somebody who lives in a different part of the world or country?



No

Quote:

Do we have different chemical balances in our body?



Obviously (eg iron deficiency)

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#185893 - 09/20/05 10:41 AM Re: Vegan vs. Omnivore [Re: Armed_Man_Piker]
Chanters Offline
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Registered: 06/16/04
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Loc: Manchester, UK
I try to buy, fair trade and organic where possible, although the term 'Organic' has been somewhat sabotaged by some supermarkets and food manufacturers. The only problem is I can only buy organic and fair trade to an extent before I have to swallow my pride and put ethics to one side and go into the supermarket as it can get quite expensive shopping for ethical produce. My fiancee and myself also have a plot on an allotment where we grow some veg, but not enough to be completely sufficient.
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#185894 - 09/20/05 10:46 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: MAGr]
Chanters Offline
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Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
Quote:

Quote:

Could where we live play a part in what our body needs more of a certain vitamin, mineral or other nutrient than maybe somebody who lives in a different part of the world or country?


No




But wouldn't something like hours of daylight affect our vitamin levels or whether we live in the city cause us to be deficient in something we would otherwise have enough of if we lived in the countryside? If you lived in a hot climate you would need to increase your intake of sodium?

Please could you expand on how you came to your conclusion?
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Chanters

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#185895 - 09/20/05 10:48 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: MAGr]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Wait a minute: are you saying that environment does not have an affect on individuals? That is not true. While a Greek might get plenty of exposure to the sun...people living in places like Siberia...don't. I saw an article where the children in such places didn't get enough sunlight, and their daycares incorporated daily treatments of exposure to artificial sunlight.

Quote:

Quote:

Could where we live play a part in what our body needs more of a certain vitamin, mineral or other nutrient than maybe somebody who lives in a different part of the world or country?



No

Quote:

Do we have different chemical balances in our body?



Obviously (eg iron deficiency)



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#185896 - 09/20/05 11:13 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: harlan]
MAGr Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

While a Greek might get plenty of exposure to the sun



Not if that Greek is living in the UK!

But yes fair enough, I suppose, but I was not taking extreme climates under consideration.
But the needs of bodies dont differ from person to person, that was my pont. Bodies are bodies and barring deficiencies, maladies, and chronic deseases, a healthy body needs nothing differnt from another healthy body. The dude in Siberia doesnt need more sunlight than the dude in Equador, its just that they dont get as much.

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#185897 - 09/20/05 01:56 PM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: Chanters]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Apparently sunlight et al does affect the needs in diet. Apparently when Indian and Pakistani immigrants first came to Scotland they were eating their traditional diet and developing vitamin and mineral deficiencies because Glasgow doesn't usually have the same sunshine levels as the Indian subcontinent.

With regards Greece, what about the Orthodox fasting seasons where meat is not eaten? I realise not everyone takes part but are they usually during sunnier periods?
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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

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#185898 - 09/21/05 06:36 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: trevek]
MAGr Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
we have around 300 days of sunshine on average in a year, and that is a bad year IMO. So yes it is during a sunny period, but there is not much chance it wouldnt be anyway.

I have heard that prisoners often have problems with lack of sunshine. What vitamin do you get from the sun, and how is it transmitted via radiation?

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#185899 - 09/21/05 07:45 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: MAGr]
Chanters Offline
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Loc: Manchester, UK
You get vitamin D from the sun. Vitamin D deficiency can sometimes cause rickets. You can top up your viamin D levels if you rarely go out in the sun by eating, eggs, mackeral, lamb's liver, fortified breakfast cereals or some cheeses.
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Chanters

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#185900 - 09/21/05 09:14 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: Chanters]
MAGr Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Ok, but how the heck do you get a vitamin from being bombarded by photons?

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#185901 - 09/21/05 09:50 AM Re: Veg and Non Veg [Re: MAGr]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Ok, but how the heck do you get a vitamin from being bombarded by photons?




Your skin is the largest organ in the body, and can absorb many things. Try rubbing a slice of raw garlic on the sole of your foot. 5 mins after, you will have 'garlic breath'!
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