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#185452 - 09/12/05 04:38 PM what is advertising?
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I noticed a reprimand for someone mentioning a book on an online auction site. It said advertising was not allowed. Serious question, when is advising felow MAists that a book is available advertising? isn't recommending a book also advertising? What are the rules/guidelines on this.

I'm not being stroppy, just want to know.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#185453 - 09/12/05 04:45 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: trevek]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Ditto. I was curious as to the parameters as well.

The FAQ: - Participants may not use the Forums to post or transmit advertisements or commercial solicitations of any kind.

But would that also apply to seminars/post your event as well?

I 'understand' the above restriction to mean that you can discuss a book/event if you have no vested interest in the commercial success of the item.


Edited by harlan (09/12/05 04:48 PM)

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#185454 - 09/12/05 05:50 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: harlan]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hmmmm.....yes, this can be an awkward call sometimes.

Mentioning a book or product that you use for informational purposes is acceptable - especially if one of the other members requested info on it.

EX:

Harlan, here is a link to some videos about xyz that you asked about. www.(...).com

Mentioning something (or directing someone to an obvious sales link) with no other reference or point is considered advertising.

EX:

Hey guys! Check my new gadget at www.(...).com

Umm...Who asked? Advertisers can also be spotted with their very low post count (1,5 etc) and the fact that all their OTHER posts were the same kind of crap.

Kind of like the Supreme Court's definition of pornography - "I know it when I see it!"
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#185455 - 09/13/05 08:29 AM Re: what is advertising? [Re: MattJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
So if , for example, I see something on an online auction which is not of interest to me but may be to others then I can't advise people?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#185456 - 09/13/05 04:02 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: trevek]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Again, if it is in an informational context (ie; you are asking "Does anyone know about XYZ, here is a link ?" or someone else on the forum asks "Does anyone know about XYZ?"), that is fine.

Blatant advertising needs to be paid for to keep this site running. Plus, do you really want a non-stop parade on ads on the forums?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#185457 - 09/13/05 06:17 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: MattJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
No, I was just curious. I'm a member of a puppetry site and members often let others know when there is something tasty on auction. I was just surprised how someone got jumped on when they did it here. Mind you, rereading I can see how it might have looked advertisingly.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#185458 - 09/16/05 07:52 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: trevek]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear Trevek et al:

I don't know if this will help, but I will throw the experience out for what its worth.

Not all that long ago one of the kwans in the Hapkiyusool branch of the Hapkido arts put out a VCD or DVD regarding its basic curriculum. I felt there had already been indications in previous posts pointing towards some strong commercial motives, but figured that maybe there might be some growth for people in the Hapkido arts in that we could now talk about a core of materials that everyone could reference. Makes sense doesn't it? Any how I thought so, so I started asking technical questions and so forth. From the response you would have thought I was trying to pry into issues of National Security!! And while I was at it, how dare I challenge (?) a person of GM So&So's standing and experience. Needless to say, whatever the motives for putting the material out there, it was pretty plain that discussion, analysis and sharing weren't part of the picture.

Don't know if this helps. From where I sit, people come to these forums to exchange information, critical and otherwise. If the thread is limited to just alerting people to the existence of some venue, I'd say it was pretty much blatant advertising. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#185459 - 09/19/05 11:55 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Bruce,
Your post was an ad. You name your product, your price, and the outlets it is available in. It is disingenuos to claim it is an invitation to discussion. It is in violation of the forum rules. It will be edited in time. You are very close to losing your priviledge to post here.

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#185460 - 09/20/05 04:24 AM Re: what is advertising? [Re: oldman]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Errm, thanks it is all a little clearer. However, IF I see something on line which might be of interest to others (but not me) can I mention it in passing?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#185461 - 09/20/05 08:46 AM Re: what is advertising? [Re: trevek]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
How is this for an example:

I want to discuss, or bring to attention of others, a particular book. I have no personal vested interest in it, but I wanted others to know about it...so I linked to the website where it is summarized, and if one goes further one can actually order from the site. I feel that it was good etiquette...but have not heard anything back on it yet.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...ue#Post15784734

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#185462 - 09/29/05 08:28 AM Re: what is advertising? [Re: oldman]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
".....You are very close to losing your priviledge to post here."

Dear Oldman:

I note that you made sure that you posted your announcement in many places. I could be wrong but there seems to be some other point you are working to make. Not sure what that is, but I can say that there is definitiely a point "I" would like to make.

I offered to discuss a Project, in process, with anyone on this forum who might have any interest in having in-put into how MA information gets published. I think this was a rather selfless and unique chance for people who undoubtedly have looked at MA books or manuals and wondered to themselves "how come they didn't......?".

The fact is that I wanted people to know that this is not some contrived offer but an actual chance to have in-put on the development of books which are published internationally.

Now, you are certainly free to censor my posts. You are also free to advocate that I be removed from your forum. I would share with you, however, that in the year that I have been observing your forum and in the last few months in which I have been participating, the quality of the discussions and the quality of the typical posts would benefit greatly from having something to examine beyond
a.) Where to buy something cheap
b.) How to learn a MA in isolation
c.) Which art is better
d.) Who is the best.

If I am incorrect and if this is the sum total that your forum aspires to then, by all means, feel free to banish me. To my mind, you need what "I" have to offer a whole lot more than I need what you have to offer. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#185463 - 09/29/05 09:27 AM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Just as a side mention while you are waiting for oldman to get back...the answers to the questions are
Quote:


a.) Where to buy something cheap
b.) How to learn a MA in isolation
c.) Which art is better
d.) Who is the best.





a. http://www.hapkido-info.net/html/hapkido_books_com.html
b. 4 ways, using the complient uke series:
http://www.hapkido-info.net/DochangJournalLevelOneBruceWSims_big.jpg
http://www.hapkido-info.net/DochangJournalLevelTwoBruceWSims_big.jpg
http://www.hapkido-info.net/DochangJournalLevelThreeBruceWSims_big.jpg
http://www.hapkido-info.net/DochangJournalLevelFourBruceWSims_big.jpg
c. hapkido of course (if done correctly as shown in the series)
d. that's obvious: "To my mind, you need what "I" have to offer a whole lot more than I need what you have to offer."

Best-seller wishes.

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#185464 - 09/29/05 11:03 AM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA


Edited by JoelM (09/29/05 11:26 AM)
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#185465 - 09/29/05 01:44 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Where to start?.

Quote:

I note that you made sure that you posted your announcement in many places.




You are right about that. I placed it on one thread where you placed "your ad" and a second time where "your ad" was being discussed. I did not want you to miss it.

Quote:

I could be wrong but there seems to be some other point you are working to make.




Here is my point. Pay for advertising.

Quote:

I offered to discuss a Project, in process, with anyone on this forum who might have any interest in having in-put into how MA information gets published. I think this was a rather selfless and unique chance for people who undoubtedly have looked at MA books or manuals and wondered to themselves "how come they didn't......?".




Thank you. That would be helpful to many of the members here. Feel free to share any knowledge you have on the topic. If you would like to inform people they may where they may purchase your material please do...

By purchasing an ad.

Quote:

Now, you are certainly free to censor my posts.




Not so much "free" as obligated.

Quote:

You are also free to advocate that I be removed from your forum.




As the only person who has had the power to ban members I have never had to advocate with anyone that you be removed from the forum. If the truth be told I have had a number of moderators and members ask for you to be banned over a lengthy periond of time. That is easily verifiable by the record of discussions in the administrators forum. Weither you recognse it or not it appears that you are intent to antagonise and insult perhaps the only person who has served as your advocate. As of today there will be 2 other members with the ability to ban.

Quote:

I would share with you, however, that in the year that I have been observing your forum and in the last few months in which I have been participating, the quality of the discussions and the quality of the typical posts would benefit greatly from having something to examine beyond
a.) Where to buy something cheap
b.) How to learn a MA in isolation
c.) Which art is better
d.) Who is the best.




To be accurate I became a member of fighting art on 7/28/04. I became a moderator in April. As the moderator I had only one ability that other members did not have. That was the ability to edit the Meditation and Zen forum. Very recently I was asked to accept the resposibilities as an administrator on the site. Since then I have banned approximatly 17 people that I felt added no value to Mr. Caille or the community. You have not been one of them.

Quote:

If I am incorrect and if this is the sum total that your forum aspires to then, by all means, feel free to banish me.





I "have" no forum. As best as I am able I attemp to abide by the Mr. Caille's priorities. I'm by all means "free" ban you. As of yet I have not been obligated.

Quote:

To my mind, you need what "I" have to offer a whole lot more than I need what you have to offer. FWIW.





I have very little to offer the members or the forum as a whole. What I am able to give I give freely.

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#185466 - 09/29/05 10:24 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: Kintama]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
So maybe we can get a comparison going. Maybe you would like to post the titles of the books that you have written and we can compare them, yes?

BTW: Assuming that you meant "compliant" the term "uke" is Japanese. You may not know this but the Koreans did not want of need Japanese culture to teach them how to fight. However, the fact that Hapkido does not rely on a compliant partner to accomplish its goals suggests to me that you may be in greater need of A book--- perhaps ANY book on Hapkido.

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (09/29/05 10:29 PM)

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#185467 - 09/29/05 10:28 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

So maybe we can get a comparison going. Maybe you would like to post the titles of the books that you have written and we can compare them, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce




How does Kintama having written or not written any books have anything to do with this topic? He was not advertising his products for sale.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#185468 - 09/29/05 10:36 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: JoelM]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
And neither was I. A judgement has been performed, and it was incorrect. Repeating many times that the judgement was correct will not MAKE it correct.

As far as Kintama's comments I meant only that both he and you Joel are adept at waiting to be fed "straight-lines" which you then exploit for your self-aggrandizement. You risk nothing--- you contribute nothing. If I were forced to characterize the situation I would draw your attention to OLDMAN's post in the discussion about DYNAMIC SPHERE in which my mention of Oscar Ratti's name elicited his remark to the effect that Ratti was an accomplished artist. Not incorrect, certainly, but not much of a contribution to the information base of the subject. Pretty much sums up the way I see posts by you and Kintama. No risk--- no contribution.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#185469 - 09/29/05 11:16 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Again i ask if you have such low opinions of everyone here, why are you still here? Are you looking for some sort of validation?
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#185470 - 09/29/05 11:18 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
You have your views about advertising, we have ours. That point has been made clear. Let's not banter back and forth between.

Quote:

Post by oldman in "Dynamic Sphere" thread:
I won't even begin to say that I understand the Dynamic sphere. I do like to take a moment each time I see Oscar Ratti's name to say I think his artwork is of the highest caliber. It is elegant in its appearant simplicity and completely masterful.




His reply was directed at KiDoHae, not you. Even with the name of the thread I thought of the book, and I don't even own it. Just because you mentioned the name of the author/illustrator does not mean that oldman took inspiration from you. Also, look at the first line, from the start he knows that it was "not much of a contribution," but an aside to the main topic of the thread. I actually found oldman's post to be of great help and interest, being somewhat of an "artist" (how presumptuous of me) myself. Just because it has no bearing for you, does not mean that a post is meaningless. I know that oldman has no need for me or himself to defend him, but I come to the aid of friends when necessary(see my signature), while you seem to attack anyone who comes near you for support or otherwise.

My previous post in this thread is quite relevant to the subject, the one that you brought up. Regarding the quality of posts and threads on this website, I gave quite a bit of proof (2 weeks worth, from 1 sub-forum, not even choosing every thread worthy of inclusion) of the quality. I risk being proved wrong by you. Though it is very doubtful that you will, so maybe there is no risk. My contribution was to prove there is quality on this forum you so commonly like to tear down and insult (bad press, I might add).

If you feel that the quality and content is so low, why don't you go somewhere else? Or have you already been banned from all of the other MA websites? My, you could give kickcatcher a run for his money.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#185471 - 09/30/05 01:36 AM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

If I were forced to characterize the situation I would draw your attention to OLDMAN's post in the discussion about DYNAMIC SPHERE in which my mention of Oscar Ratti's name elicited his remark to the effect that Ratti was an accomplished artist. Not incorrect, certainly, but not much of a contribution to the information base of the subject.




Mr Ratti is a contribtor to FightingArts.com . My only contribution to the coversation was a compliment intended to recognize and honor him.

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#185472 - 09/30/05 06:41 AM Re: what is advertising? [Re: laf7773]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
"....Again i ask if you have such low opinions of everyone here, why are you still here? Are you looking for some sort of validation?...."

When people want information about the martial arts many of them go out to the Internet. So far I get the impression that moderators here have a pretty clear view of what they owe this website. I also think that mods here have a pretty good idea of what it takes to provide a playground for MA "hangers-on". What I DON'T get an impression for is what accomodations are made for people who are particularly serious about their studies. Think of my observation as the difference between you offering services at the level of BALCK BELT magazine, and me wondering why there isn't more at the level of JAMA? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#185473 - 09/30/05 09:12 AM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
The guidelines that were given to the moderators are very clear.

Quote:


3. Advertising: Is not allowed except in the form of members promoting personal MA events or seminars. Adverts that are clearly profit related should be deleted and the offender warned accordingly.





"Advertising" by word of mouth recommendations, in my view, are acceptable, so long the recommendation is in "good faith". I.e. if you simply recommend a product and in passing, mentioned the fact that this is how much it costs, and where to get it from, then it is, IMO, acceptable, as long as there is no financial gain to you by recommending such product. According to the guidelines, an MA event or seminar would clearly be exempt.

If however, you name a product from which you stand to obtain a financial or pecuniary interest, a price, and where the product may be obtained from, then I believe in all fairness, that is advertising. As such, you should do the right thing and purchase ad space on this site.

Does that clarify things?

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#185474 - 09/30/05 09:35 AM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

What I DON'T get an impression for is what accomodations are made for people who are particularly serious about their studies.



You seem to have a serious deficiency about admitting that you are wrong or that others have anything to offer you. Did you go back and read any of those posts in which I showed you? Are those not serious discussions by people who are serious about their studies? I doubt you will respond to this, just like last time, because you know I have proven you wrong, even if you won't admit to it.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#185475 - 09/30/05 10:49 AM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I know little or nothing about Hapkido. I know slightly more than a passing knowledge of Korean history. I don't know any Korean language or even the difference between dialects. So as a starting point, I'll take your challenge and go out on a limb and tell you how I percieve Korean Arts in general.
You are the first person that prompted me to take note of the Art Hapkido. There are several levels of what I see. on the surface level is the bombardment of Mcdojos of Hapkido that tell me it's an art as saturated in the current mainstream as TKD. dig a bit deeper and you see that Hapkido was built upon several martial arts and principles at a time when Korea had a severe identity crisis (and still does to a certain degree) having been invaded and reinvaded over the past 1,000 years, people were starting to question...what is actually indigenous of the Korean peninsula? lots of government money went into archeology to dig up an identity. 'coincidently', one of the things 'discovered' during this time was a national martial art. rooted deep in Chinese arts, but later heavily influenced by Japan's version of fighting - In the past <100 years, legitimate Korean-born Japan-trained masters motivated to put a Korean face to MA added a bit of this, changed some of that...some changes for better, some for appearences and for 'look and feel' put a name to it and find justifications that it's indigenous.
This isn't to say Korea never had their own Art, it's more about not being able to find evidence enough to build unique fighting principles...if there were such unique ideas, whos to say the invaders didn't learn it and call it their own...who knows. some people argue that many fundamental sword practices of Japan's samurai were borrowed arts from Korea. improbable but possible.
The point is, whatever was practiced on the peninsular at the time when hand-to-hand or sword combat was relavent has been more lost than carried on thru lineage. The things that have been created in the past 100 years in Korean MA was in attempt to rebuild that broken chain....they had to start somewhere.

topic tie-in: You and your books are another mend to that broken chain...while I commend and appreciate the amount of research that goes into works - on this particular subject, with so little peices of the puzzle available, I have to question how much is Art-pride/style-blindness, repackaging Japan arts in Korean language and just plain ego-tripping of having the illusion of knowing something that others do not.
I risk thinking about this all wrong and posting for all to see my ignorance...thats ok, because when you correct it we will all learn...or is this information reserved for people buying your books?

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#185476 - 09/30/05 12:02 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

"....Again i ask if you have such low opinions of everyone here, why are you still here? Are you looking for some sort of validation?...."

When people want information about the martial arts many of them go out to the Internet. So far I get the impression that moderators here have a pretty clear view of what they owe this website. I also think that mods here have a pretty good idea of what it takes to provide a playground for MA "hangers-on". What I DON'T get an impression for is what accomodations are made for people who are particularly serious about their studies. Think of my observation as the difference between you offering services at the level of BALCK BELT magazine, and me wondering why there isn't more at the level of JAMA? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce




How does this answer my question? Why are you still here? You condemn this site and it's members at every turn but you don't leave. When asked why instead of answering the question you banter on about the "short comings" of the moderators here again, but still no answer to the question. In one breath you say you want us (moderators) to take accountability for the site and "improve" it in order for the "serious" practitioners to have a quality discussion but then you turn around and claim the mass majority of members here are either incapable or uninterested in such discussions.

Why should this entire forum change because YOU want it to?

Why do you continue to come here when it's obvious it's not going to?

What is it about your life that you feel you must attempt to lord your self over every one here?

Are you looking for praise?

Are you looking for a pat on the back?

Are you looking for recognition? Or do you simply want someone to tell you how right you are and grovel for you to enlighten them?

At any rate you believe yourself to be at a much higher level than anyone else here. You feel YOU hold the key and we are but the pathetic masses that fail to understand your logic. The fact is you DON'T have all the answers and you are blinded by your delusions of grandeur.

You claim you were not advertising but lets look at the post in question. As said before you named your product, price, what the purchaser may gain from buying your product and where they can get it (your web site). If that wasn't enough at the end of that post in your signature you named you rank in the arts you study as if to validate why people should by from you. This is something you haven't done in any of your other posts. This is blatant advertising and no matter how many times you say it's not it isn't going to change that.

You can continue to play your little games but i assure you it's getting old.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#185477 - 09/30/05 12:54 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: laf7773]
glad2bhere Offline
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Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear Lane:

I answered your question. Apparently you are unable or unwilling to understand or accept the answer. That is not my problem. You asked a question and I answered it. I understand now that you are asking the same question again and expecting--- what? A different answer?

For what reason would I possibly want to waste my time playing such a foolish game with you. My view on this was sufficient for dealing with Joel. I see no reason why I cannot extend the premise to you.

Regards.

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#185478 - 09/30/05 01:00 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: Kintama]
glad2bhere Offline
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Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear Ed:

"....The point is, whatever was practiced on the peninsular at the time when hand-to-hand or sword combat was relavent has been more lost than carried on thru lineage. The things that have been created in the past 100 years in Korean MA was in attempt to rebuild that broken chain....they had to start somewhere....."

I was wrong. To call you a moron as I did on the other thread does a disservice to morons everywhere. Your understanding of Korean history in the immediate sense, and the development of KMA in the larger sense is abysmal. Where you ever got the sad tripe you just dished up is anybodies guess. Not that I don't have my suspicions.

Regards.

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#185479 - 09/30/05 01:22 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Bruce,
In a number of threads recently you have used a phrase something along the lines of "I have my suspicions" would you help me to understand what you are suspicious about?

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#185480 - 09/30/05 01:44 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
lol...then correct me. or are you saying I'll have to buy your books?
You challenge people to take a risk and then cut them down when they are wrong? geeez...I'd hate to be one of your students.

p.s. you are getting better at insults. that one almost had a touch of humor to it. it's a step. now try to insult with original humor...much more effective and richer in entertainment value. IMO. FWIW.

edit-on second thought don't bother, I found your article:
http://users.iafrica.com/a/as/ashihara/hapkido.htm
wow, that is completely different from the history I made up...lol
our tactics in desminating information are a bit different though, I tend to 'tell it like it is' and you tend to 'dazzle em with BS'.... 'B.S.' meaning your name of course.

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#185481 - 09/30/05 02:02 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

I was wrong. To call you a moron as I did on the other thread does a disservice to morons everywhere.



Might I remind you that insulting others is against forum rules, please stop.

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#185482 - 09/30/05 03:12 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Well, Bruce. You certainly proved Kintama right with that lovely observation about Kin's KMA post. Didn't see you correct anything he said either.

I did see a blatant personal attack - which is yet another violation of forum rules. We DON'T need you.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#185483 - 09/30/05 03:31 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: JoelM]
glad2bhere Offline
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Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Joel:
Had it been "I" who published the foul crap that Kintama just wrote about Korean martial traditions but had made disparaging remarks about the Japanese culture--- you know, those Emperor-worshipping sword-swingers on the other side of the Eastern Sea you would have been all over me. However, Ed is going to get away with what he wrote because it is consistent with how people ---- especially practitioners of Japanese arts WANT to view Korean arts. It is in the best interests of the Japanese ultra-nationalist agenda of WW II and before as well as not a few returning Korean Ex-pats to continue to talk about how Korean Arts "died" long ago.

WHAT BETTER EXAMPLE OF EVERYTHING I HAVE BEEN SAYING than to see such slander accepted because its consistent with the popular view. It was the same with the judgement about the advertising. It was not a fair call, but it certainly was the popular call and therefore it stood.

Hey, you know what "I'M" up for? How about you do some more lecturing on rules and whats right and whats wrong. A person could probably be forgiven for concluding there is more than a little "moral flexibility" in your definitions. There certainly is in your applications.

Regards.

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#185484 - 09/30/05 03:41 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Is there such a thing as a 'time out'? I am sorry GTBH, but you do come across as stiff necked and with an agenda to promote your stuff. I find your arguments interesting...but I find dead leaves interesting...and am in the minority.

And it takes two to fight. I should mind my own business...but just pointing out that folks have the option to NOT respond.

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#185485 - 09/30/05 03:44 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: MattJ]
glad2bhere Offline
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Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Excuse Me, Matt, but Ed's post had so many mistakes in it I doubt there would have been enough bandwidth to allow for the corrections. And pardon me, but what would be the point of correcting it?

If I wrote it (which I didn't)

and you read it (which you wouldn't)

and you understood and accepted it (which you won't)

you would simply come back in a minute, a day, an hour or a month and ask the same thing again. You would not do any reading or research. You WOULD however continue to pass yourself off as someone who wants to talk about Martial Arts even if you can't get your facts straight beyond vague oral traditions.

Regards.

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#185486 - 09/30/05 03:45 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

It was the same with the judgement about the advertising. It was not a fair call, but it certainly was the popular call and therefore it stood.




What do you see as unfair about it? The call on advertising I mean.

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#185487 - 09/30/05 03:50 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: harlan]
glad2bhere Offline
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Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
".....Is there such a thing as a 'time out'? I am sorry GTBH, but you do come across as stiff necked and with an agenda to promote your stuff......."

No, Harlan. I appreciate your thoughts, but Joel's last post in conjunction with Ed's is a perfect example of what this has all been about. My agenda has been simple. If FIGHTING ARTS can pander to the kids and sperflous and superficial posts, I want to know why there is not a concerted effort to push for greater sophistication.

I went so far as to volunteer my own personal project for discussion and scrutiny ----not that it came to anything---- and you can pretty much see where THAT went.

Perhaps the reception would be warmer if, like one of those guys that goes searching for an organization to give them rank, I could approach FIGHTING ARTS with about a thousand unique IP-s to be sold to the mailing list companies, yes?

Everybody has their price, right?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#185488 - 09/30/05 03:51 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
MattJ Offline
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Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by G2BH -

Quote:

Had it been "I" who published the foul crap that Kintama just wrote about Korean martial traditions but had made disparaging remarks about the Japanese culture




Ok, please sit down. Point out the 'disparaging' comments. The things that Kintama pointed out as questionable parts of KMA history have been pointed out at various times at CMA and JMA as well. Hell, even American catch-wrestling has had it's origins questioned. Have you forgetten your time on Bullshido?

Your art-centric view of things here is coloring your perception of people's input. Disagreement does NOT equal denigration.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#185489 - 09/30/05 03:55 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
So... I'm still trying here I may be a little slow on the uptake but let me see if I understand. Your goal is to make Fighting arts.com a better site by elevating the sophistication of the posts and dialog? It appears that Kintama has given you the perfect opportunity to refute his statements. An acheive your purpose.

One other thing,

Quote:

Perhaps the reception would be warmer if, like one of those guys that goes searching for an organization to give them rank, I could approach FIGHTING ARTS with about a thousand unique IP-s to be sold to the mailing list companies, yes?




I'd really like to say the I know what someone could do with a thousand IP addresses but I don't have a clue. To be honest I'm not even sure what one is. Are you implying that the site owner is selling peoples information?

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#185490 - 09/30/05 04:23 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I simply took your challenge: you asked for people to risk themselves by posting what they knew...I did so and asked in advance for your correction. Koreans have had a unfair position in world history...their only crime: geography. They've been surrounded by bullies for centuries. Every society is entitled to dignity... but far be it for you to be their spokesperson...hell, you can't even speak their language. Do you think ANY article you write will be taken seriously by any Korean? no, all they have to do is open a book in their own language and find out the real version... but you'd already know that if you could read hangul and hancha - for all you know, you could be spending your life rediscoving things already written at the public library in Seoul.

from a Korean point of view, you are nothing - you are an observer...once you realize that, you'll be able to speak on the level of reality with the rest here. We are speaking from a point of view as it relates to the culture in which each live...if you've lived in another country or have family in another country or speak another language that gained you access to that culture other than having a library card somewhere in the midwest of America - then I'd like to hear your experiences...I just can't buy into your vast book knowledge and research as anything tangible or reliable. The fact that you've re-compiled this info into your own books is regurgitation...if you didn't read it from the source (Korean and or Chinese), then how can you be possibly creating anything new?
The current great researchers in MA like Patrick McCarthy and Mark Bishop for instance have lived and trained in the countries they have written about, they know the language can speak to the people, look into their eyes and listen and feel what they are saying...this comes thru in their writting. yours is a fact-based regurgitation of hearsay that has propegated across an ocean. much of it probably factually true...but lacking in 'soul'.

Get a sense of humor and travel...then write about it.

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#185491 - 09/30/05 04:32 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: Kintama]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

but lacking in 'soul'.




Didn't you mean "Seoul" ?

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#185492 - 09/30/05 04:37 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by G2BH -

Quote:

Excuse Me, Matt, but Ed's post had so many mistakes in it I doubt there would have been enough bandwidth to allow for the corrections. And pardon me, but what would be the point of correcting it?

If I wrote it (which I didn't)

and you read it (which you wouldn't)

and you understood and accepted it (which you won't)

you would simply come back in a minute, a day, an hour or a month and ask the same thing again. You would not do any reading or research. You WOULD however continue to pass yourself off as someone who wants to talk about Martial Arts even if you can't get your facts straight beyond vague oral traditions.




BURN!!!

I have to laugh at the irony of your wishing to raise the intellectual level and sophistication of this site....but not answering questions because we're too dumb to understand them.

BWAHAHAHAHA. Nice dodge. You have an interesting "teaching" style, sir. "I would explain the roundhouse kick to you.....but you won't understand. *sigh*"

And you are correct that my knowledge of many MA histories is pathetic. I will admit this. However, I do not need to know the history of the sidekick (or whatever) to be able to USE it. FWIW.

Why don't you "risk" educating us. We might learn something.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#185493 - 09/30/05 08:04 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

... My agenda has been simple. If FIGHTING ARTS can pander to the kids and sperflous and superficial posts, I want to know why there is not a concerted effort to push for greater sophistication.





This from the FA advertising info:
Quote:


Overview of our readers:

Gender 82% Male
Age - 60% in the 25-45 age range
Education 67% at least some college
Occupations - Over 50 % Management, professional or technical
Household Income - 46% income over $35,000

Years Of Martial Arts Experience
10 Years + 54%
5-10 Years 19%
1-5 Years 21%
0-1 Year 6%





I'm not sure what the sample size is, but that's an overwhelming majority of college educated ADULT participants with 10 or more years MA experience. I strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with Transactional Analysis.

Quote:


I went so far as to volunteer my own personal project for discussion and scrutiny ----not that it came to anything---- and you can pretty much see where THAT went.





If you had not mentioned the price and where it was availabe for purchase, perhaps the reception would have been warmer.

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#185494 - 09/30/05 08:42 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: eyrie]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
C'mon, Eyrie. Wake-up and smell the Ben-Gay.

My posts were deleted because somebody determined that I was "advertising". Give me a break! But, Hey! Don't believe me. Do your own research. Go to any of the threads in which "somebody" innocently asks "gee, which MA should I take" and count how many posts there are before someone finally names a website, location or teacher. You folks have had "advertising" going on this site for monthes. Do you "really" think people need to come onto an international venue to find a MA location in their OWN AREA??? But don't feel bad, it happens on a lot of nets and has been going on for years. The MMA people are the worst. (For instance, take a look at the "thinking of learning Ju-jitsu (sic)" thread. The 8th post identified a website for MMA. --- thank you Matt----The "native american thread only took TWO and there is another one "I'm new here". I wonder how many that one will take?)

Here's the dodge.

Innocent #1 comes on and asks an innocuous question.

Rescuer 1, 2 and 3 provide varying bits of information or suggestions. At this point things can go one of two ways.

a.) Rescuer #4 comes on the scene and provides a bit of contact info. Innocent #1 has problems with that so Rescuer #4 "clarifies" ---- by ADDING more info. Innocent #1 has problems there so Rescuer #4 adds MORE info. Since it is a protracted exchange noone seems to notice that Rescuer 4 is getting all of the info about the art, location, and teaching out to an international audience.

b.) Alternately Innocent #1 begins to be more and more antagonistic about what he is looking for and how the other suggestions are somehow less. In an effort to support his arguement Innocent #1 begins to name persons, places and things, usually because his counterparts are continually asking for him to back up his arguements. All he has to do is tick them off enough and they will practically BEG him to "advertise" on their thread.

I have no doubt that the powers that be were all clapping themselves on the back for catching that naughty Korean stylist for trying to "slip" an advetisement by them. Yeah, these Mods are just so "darn" sharp. Can I have that break now?

BTW: The demographics you quoted were to recruit advertisers, yes? What did you think they were going to say about the demographics here? "Hey, come advertise here! Of course, we treat to the "slowest-common-denominator" with little or no disposable income, but ehy, thats life on the Internet. Just because most contributors are too lazy or "intellectually challenged" to do their own research including an occasional GOOGLE now and then does not mean you CAN'T sell them something, right?"

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (09/30/05 09:13 PM)

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#185495 - 09/30/05 09:35 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by G2BH -

Quote:

The 8th post identified a website for MMA. --- thank you Matt




*sound of buzzer*

Nice try, but my post was not advertising. Here's why:

1) I have no financial interest in the site that I put up. This is the critical difference between my post and yours - you stood to gain directly from mention of your product. That is advertising.

2) My post and the related site were in answer to another poster's question about whether a given style existed at all. I posted a link to an actual school (randomly) to verify that the style in question IS actually taught somewhere.

Thanks for playing, here is your lovely parting gift - a tube of Ben Gay, original scent.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#185496 - 09/30/05 10:16 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: MattJ]
glad2bhere Offline
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Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Of course, not, Matt. "Advertising" is what the OTHER guy does. You? Ah, well, YOU were just "informing". You are SUCH a good guy passing around "information". You could have encouraged the person to do a GOOGLE and drawn his own conclusions. Nice guy that you are, though, you probably thought it would be a nice gesture to provide the information directly to that individual---- and coincidentally to the reast of the INTERNET community.

Nor do we have anything but your word that you get no reinforcement for your effort. Maybe just making sure that one more MMA venue gets identified in the International market is enough for you, yes?

I suppose it would be a real stretch that the guy wrote in about MMA. You provided MMA information and you happen to like a variety of arts (including BJJ) in your profile. Sorta makes you an MMA ("mixed martial arts") advocate, doesn't it? Thank Gawd it wasn't advertising, yes?

Regards.


Edited by glad2bhere (09/30/05 10:22 PM)

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#185497 - 09/30/05 10:48 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Of course, not, Matt. "Advertising" is what the OTHER guy does. You? Ah, well, YOU were just "informing". You are SUCH a good guy passing around "information". You could have encouraged the person to do a GOOGLE and drawn his own conclusions.




I could have done that.....and I could have also stood on my head and jammed pine cones in my eyes. What is your point? I was not advertising - there is no financial gain in it for me.

A forum full of "GOOGLE IT" responses would be a pretty boring forum, yes? Aren't we here to share information? Free of charge?

Quote:

Nice guy that you are, though, you probably thought it would be a nice gesture to provide the information directly to that individual---- and coincidentally to the reast of the INTERNET community.




Yes, stating the obvious.... we are connected to the internet here.

Quote:

Nor do we have anything but your word that you get no reinforcement for your effort. Maybe just making sure that one more MMA venue gets identified in the International market is enough for you, yes?




Ahhh....when you can't defend your point, you raise the DREADED CONSPIRACY MONSTER BLEARGHGHGG! You would have me display my tax returns and bank statements for proof? But OH NO!!!!!! What if I am getting cash payments as a kickback? No records! Horrors!!!!!!! NOW WHAT ?!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Quote:

I suppose it would be a real stretch that the guy wrote in about MMA. You provided MMA information and you happen to like a variety of arts (including BJJ) in your profile. Sorta makes you an MMA ("mixed martial arts") advocate, doesn't it? Thank Gawd it wasn't advertising, yes?




The guy asked about American jujitsu....I provided him some info on American jujitsu. Free of charge. Unlike your post.

And yes, I have some interest in MMA (as it relates to self defense).....but not a financial interest. And the true, competition oriented MMA guys probably laugh at me.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#185498 - 09/30/05 11:05 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: MattJ]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Not all advertising need produce a direct financial or fiduciary benefit to you. There is an entire range of advertising that is devoted almost exclusively to "putting the word out", to encouraging an icon or trademark for universal recognition, and for developing name recognition. This is especially true in the services industries such as banking, real estate and ... well.... martial arts. For some people advertising is enough to know that their "team" is getting exposure.... sorta like what you provided with your "information". But don't feel too bad (or go ahead and feel bad if you want to).... take a look at how many recommendations have gone through the sword area for Chen, HANWEI, CAS and BUGEI Trading. Thank Gawd it was all only "information" and not "advertising".

Regards.

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#185499 - 09/30/05 11:16 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
MattJ Offline
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Loc: York PA. USA
G2BH -

Yes, well the financial or fiduciary concerns of advertising are the primary topics at hand, yes?

Advocacy of this or that MA or training paradigm is tolerated within reason....to be expected to a degree, yes? As long as it is not entering forum violating areas of art-bashing or advertising for financial gain, etc.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#185500 - 09/30/05 11:20 PM Re: what is advertising? [Re: glad2bhere]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
lol...you mean like you mentioning Hapkido in every post?

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