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#185377 - 09/12/05 12:36 PM Guide to Pressure Point Basics
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hi guys,

To go along side the Point of the Week posts, I've tried to write a brief guide to the basics of PP attacking. I hope its of interest. Apologies for the quality of the writing, I didn't have alot of time to work on it.

It's on my website. I would have stuck it on here, but couldn't figure out how to get the images working.

Jango, does that answer your queries about angles???

The article is here:

http://www.gosokempo.com/ppbasics.htm

Regards,

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#185378 - 09/13/05 08:26 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Gavin]
kempo_student Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Venice, Italy
Hi Gavin,
Well done... is a good guide to begin to understand pp...
But i will not define the intent as a basic... intent is essential to move your chi but isn't a basic concept... (this is only an observation).
Do you think to continue to work to that guide expanding it? So, in future, i will send my students to study it.

P.S. Point of the week is becoming a success, because let you a week to concentrate on a point without doing confusion studying 10 points at time

Bye bye and thank you for the time you're dedicating writing about pp

Daniele Nosella

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#185379 - 09/13/05 08:56 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: kempo_student]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hi Daniel,

I'd really like to expand this guide. I'll agree that intent is not a basic concept, but at the level I'm pitching the guide at I just wanted to concerntrate on introducing the principle.

So if we were to expand the guide, what should we include?

Gav

PS. Glad your liking the PP of the week!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#185380 - 09/14/05 08:28 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Gavin]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I m also liking the PP of the week. I had no idea about pressure points and I have looked extensively over the google results with all the sites having incomplete and kinda specialized explanations.
I am now a certified fan of your site!

I have two questions however.
1. Are the PP points symetrical on the body? i.e. if there is a certain pp on one leg is it also in the same spot with the same effect on the other leg?

2. Can I try the application with a partner or is it dangerous with all that rupturing/meridian malarkey?

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#185381 - 09/14/05 09:21 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: MAGr]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

I am now a certified fan of your site!




Hey, we've got our first fan! But are you a certified fan or a fan who's be certified???

Quote:

1. Are the PP points symetrical on the body? i.e. if there is a certain pp on one leg is it also in the same spot with the same effect on the other leg?





The points of the 12 Main meridians which have points located on both sides of the body. These are:

- Bladder
- Gall Bladder
- Heart
- Kidney
- Large Intestine (aka Colon)
- Liver
- Lung
- Pericardium (aka Heart Protector )
- Small Intestine
- Spleen
- Stomach
- Triple Warmer (aka Triple Heater or Triple Burner)

There are then 8 Extraordinary Meridians of which only 2 have their own points:

- The Governor Vessel
- The Conceptor Vessel

These two meridians are single entities, the Conceptor vessel runs down the centre of the front of the body, and the Governor Vessel runs down the centre of the back (along the spine). The rest of the Extraordinary meridians share points with the other meridians. To be honest I'm only just starting to get into this part of the PP's, so aren't really qualified to talk in this area. Once I start getting into my Shiatsu studies I hope to start writing alot more about them.

Quote:

2. Can I try the application with a partner or is it dangerous with all that rupturing/meridian malarkey?




Oh, now that's a humdinger of a question. I've been playing around with PP striking since I was about 18 (now 27), and besides a few twitches, daily blackouts and my leg falling off I've not suffered any side effects. Seriously, in my personal experience I've not experienced any problems, barring intense pain when they're applied properly.

This is something that really needs to be covered in the guide and I like to have a bit of a discussion about it first, before I add it.

These are the tips I've been told, and have sailed me pretty much safe thus far:

  • If you are applying a point and not getting an effect, don't hit it harder. The chances are that your not attacking it correctly.
  • Don't switch sides when trying applications. So if your striking the right side of your opponent, stick to the right side, don't switch and try it on their left side.
  • Limit your practice of actual striking to a maximum of 2 hours a week. You can drill the applications without actually striking the specific points.
  • Never use more the 3-5% power.
  • NEVER EVER hit the points full speed and power.
  • Use extreme caution when attacking the points near the heart.
  • Always respect your training partner, go softly and work harder only with their permission. They will tell you if they aer able to take any more.
  • Always have an experienced instructor with you, who knows first aid!


Anyone got anything to add?

gav

Anyone else got
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#185382 - 09/14/05 11:03 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Gavin]
Jango Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 28
Yep well done Gavin I think everyone who wants to learn should def. check out the angles page. It is very important.

As for as the safety tips you gave I think it covers quite alot. The people who are gona do this should know that they might be KO'ed very very easily easily so they must know the proper revival technique or know someone who does.

J.

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#185383 - 09/14/05 11:10 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Jango]
webby Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 147
Loc: newton abbot devon
hi there gav i found your pp right up very use full!! and the pp of the week is a great sucsess........congrats and keep them coming

webby!

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#185384 - 09/14/05 12:49 PM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Jango]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I'm very very reluctant to put revival tips down on the list. The first is that I don't indulge in nor promote PP KO's for demo purposes. The only people I have a desire to K.O are the very people I don't want to be bringing back round. Its a big bone of contention within the PP world. Personally, I can demonstrate effective PP applications without K.O'ing someone, and I don't want to risk anyones safety for a demo. It's just a personal point of view, but I think the slightest risk of harm to my training partner for the sake of a demo is not worth it. So I feel documenting the revival techniques mearly encourages people to go out and bang each other out, which is a moral stance I have taken not to do. I'm trying to keep my posts obscure enough so that they will only be of use to experienced Martial Artists to make use of, people who *should* understand the consequences of their actions.

My second reason, more an extention of the first, is that teaching revival techniques, without supervision is inviting people to harm each other. If I show you personally how to revive someone, I can tell whether or not you understand. Putting techniques in writing could lead people to believe they have a clue what they are doing and start whapping each other out. Reading a webpage, regardless of how well it is writtern, doesn't mean that the readers of said webpage will have a true understanding. I don't want any accidents resulting from my ramblings.

Hope that stance doesn't offend those who practice K.O's, I still want the information to be put out there...I'm just trying to ensure peoples safety....seems a bit of a backwards point of view considering I'm telling people how to apply the points properly....
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#185385 - 09/14/05 07:45 PM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Gavin]
Jango Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 28
Your right Gavin some people might not be able to pull it off at all. But some that can might abuse it if they know the revival techniques.

Revival techniques are on our list because it is just so EASY to KO someone when practicing PP, I cannot stress that enough.

But I think I agree with you in not posting the revival techniques online.

Good posts keep up the good work.

Regards,
Jango.

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#185386 - 09/15/05 03:50 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Gavin]
kempo_student Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Venice, Italy
Hi Gavin,
I was skeptic to the idea of sharing on internet Kyusho information, so I asked to my instructor and he said me that there's no problem to share kyusho infos but I must be general without explaining the principles deeply, deeply...
So to answer to you I think that you can continue introducting BAR or the 5 kyusho general principles:
-Attack along the same meridian
-Attack yin e yang
-Attack in the cycle of destruction
-Attack in accordance with the diurnal cycle
-The special points
If you need infos about these concepts you have only to ask...
I'm happy to help you building this guide

Bye bye

Daniele Nosella

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#185387 - 09/15/05 06:32 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: kempo_student]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Thanks for your input Daniel. I have been reluctant about sticking this information up on the net, but if you look around the information that is out there is awful for the most part.

With regards to adding the more TCM aspects of Kyusho, I think that this info is too deep to learn without personal supervision. This is also a great way to hide the fact that I really don't know that much about it!

I really don't consider myself a Kyusho guy in the slightest, although I don't like to label myself as anything, I'd probably describe myself as a PP striker. The difference being a Kyusho guy has an educated and indepth understanding of the points. A PP striker is an ignorant thug who knows how to hurt people by sticking his fingers in certian spots!

So although my personal studies are moving in the direction of Kyusho and understanding the real meaning behind the points, I'm not qualified to include any of that information on my site. I find the ponits extremely useful isolated advanced targets at the moment, so that's what I'll write about. I feel its much more important to promote an understanding of the practical aspects of BAR, body mechanics, power and impact, and practical PP striking over actual PP theory. If I ever get a grasp on the finer poitns of Kyusho, I might change my opinion...bt from my current blissfully ignorant state, this is the road I'm walking on at the moment.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#185388 - 09/16/05 05:41 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Gavin]
kempo_student Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Venice, Italy
Ok Gavin,
the simple concepts of KYUSHO are also the more pratical concepts, BAR, ANGLE and METHOD are really pratical than advanced principle and are perfect for your COMBAT ARENA...
Never the less the 5 general principles of KYUSHO Jitsu are simple to learn, so when you will learn these principles you can do a good addiction to your guide and also to your fighting system... If applied these principle have a devastating effect, and if you simplify they into a technique your COMBAT ARENA will gain a lot of power. If you want to understand a little bit how to these principles work I can write you something privately...

P.S. I would push you to learn from someone qualified (not me) the more advanced concepts because they are wonderfull

Bye bye

Daniele Nosella

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#185389 - 09/16/05 06:04 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Gavin]
kyushoguy Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 14
Loc: uk
Hi

I believe it is extremely dangerous to put out basic PP theory with first showing revival techniques.

People are obviously going to try this stuff out and even rank amateurs can KO people.

Any bona fide teacher will teach you revivals first.

From the mistakes on this thread and the points of the week threads I know this is not put out by a certified teacher.

Who have you studied PP's with for 9 years Gavin?

This is dangerous.

Leave your ego at home

Learn the basics then learn how and what to teach before you post potentially dangerous stuff Gavin.


KG

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#185390 - 09/16/05 07:01 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: kyushoguy]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
And you are...?

Quote:

I believe it is extremely dangerous to put out basic PP theory with first showing revival techniques



How are you going to show revival techniques? I m pretty sure this post is purely academic, and anyone who thinks its a guide to 'try this at home' is a retard. We are not here to cater for retards just to have helpful discussions

Quote:

From the mistakes on this thread and the points of the week threads I know this is not put out by a certified teacher



I have no idea about PP, but I know that if I had found something that was wrong I would say why it was wrong and what the right way is, rather than just point out it is wrong. What are the mistakes and what is the correct.
This is a discussion, not a way to tell people they are wrong.

Quote:

This is dangerous.



Martial arts are dangerous, do you care to be more specific?

Quote:

Leave your ego at home




Thanks for the advice, it is duly noted

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#185391 - 09/16/05 07:40 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: kyushoguy]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
KG, I'm not going to let this thread turn into a flame war, because I think its an important subject.....but, I can't see how I'm bringing my ego into this by actively sharing PP information IN a PP forum.

Quote:

Any bona fide teacher will teach you revivals first.




I've given my opinion on teaching revival's, you've stated yours....post a revival guide if you that bothered.

Quote:

From the mistakes on this thread and the points of the week threads I know this is not put out by a certified teacher.





What mistakes? Oh attacking GB20 rather than BL10. The point you missed, was that we were discussing possible attacks for GB20, not BL10. Yes those attacks are valid for BL10, and might even be a better shot, BUT they are still are valid applications for hitting that point. If you forget the points all together, that area of attack is valid for the applications I discussed.

Quote:

Who have you studied PP's with for 9 years Gavin?




I asked you the same question in a friendly manner, but didn't receive a definate answer. You simply made some vauge claim about studying Kyusho for 20 odd years I believe. The fact that you're based in the UK, makes this claim rather dubious in my opinion, whatever you've done I really don't care.

Right, who have I studied under. We'll my instructor (you all know who he is, and if you don't click on the link in my sig.). Went on the early Dillman UK seminars and also a couple of Vince Morris ones in the early '90's (to my knowledge this was the first time Kyusho was really introduced to the UK)...they were actively teaching the basics contained in my guide. IE some points need rubbing, some pressing some striking. Some respond better to certian stimulus than others. Armed with these basics, we started experimenting using Acupoint charts, pulling out the points from areas that we already targeted. And over the space of 9 or so years of buying TCM and Kyusho books, and attending seminars, and after alot of bruising, pain and discomfort we've started to piece together an idea of what works best for us, exactly the same way alot of other guys have. I've never stated anything else.

The idea of my Point of the Week, and one which I consider to be sucessful, was to present the way myself and colleagues have found to strike certian points, and invite alternatives and opinions. It's as much a learning experience for those reading the points as it is for me.

If you've spotted a mistake, share your experience with us, don't criticize, join in the discussion. If you're not prepared to do that quite frankly you can stay out of the DISCUSSION!

Gav

EDITED - Profanity at the end removed.....Sorry to any mod's before I get slapped!


Edited by Gavin (09/16/05 08:27 AM)
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#185392 - 09/16/05 08:25 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: kempo_student]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Sorry Daniel, I missed you're post...to busy concerntrating on our new friends response.

With regards to learning the deeper concepts, you are 100% right. Which is why I'm spending the next three years studying shiatsu, in an effort to understand all aspects of the process. The process of applying these principles has already been addressed by Russell Stutely and the OCI guys, and guess who I'm going be on a weeks long camp in Nov? Mr Stutely....I really can't wait, just the little bits and pieces I've gained from their DVD's has already enhanced my MA's alot.

In a few years time, once I have a bit more of a grounding in it I'm most definately add it to the Combat Arena Syllabus, in fact we've left a nice big gap in the syllabus for it's future addition!

If you do get the time to write something I'm always entirely grateful of you experience.

Be well my friend,

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#185393 - 09/16/05 12:38 PM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: kyushoguy]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyushoguy
Hi




Howdy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyusho_guy
I believe it is extremely dangerous to put out basic PP theory with first showing revival techniques.



Yes, because studying and perfecting this stuff is much, much harder that hitting someone in the head with a bat. By the way what is the revival for hitting someone in the head with a bat?

I've posted several general revival techniques and some specific ones here. As well as googling for PP revival will probably yield the proper results.

Not to mention the fact that a healthy individual will most likely wake up on their own anyway and the EV system will return things to normal. If they're not healthy stop hitting them to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyusho_guy
People are obviously going to try this stuff out and even rank amateurs can KO people.



Oh the horror I tell you...the Horror...He's right you know (see my comment about baseball bats above).

Seriously though, we call these OSF (Oh Sh#t Factor) knockouts, and they happen. But most people wont take the time to even try it and the ones who do will fail
and then either try some more and fail again or get it right and scare the sh#t out of themselves and then be more careful.

So lighten up dude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyusho_guy
Any bona fide teacher will teach you revivals first.



I think any bona fide teacher would teach you karate first.

But learning to understand how to heal can only help. By learning how to fix a car engine you know better how to break it with less effort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyusho_guy
From the mistakes on this thread and the points of the week threads I know this is not put out by a certified teacher.



And what information have you put out for us to pick over? Please entrhall us with one of your perfect treatise on TCM as it applies to fighting.

It is very easy to come and nitpick someone elses efforts, but it takes real balls (sorry lane) to put information out there for others and know that there
is going to be some smart a$$ to pick it apart.

Enlighten us O great one as to your kyusho certifications (I'll match mine against your anyday)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyusho_guy
Who have you studied PP's with for 9 years Gavin?



And you have been so forthcoming with the information about where you have gleaned your kyusho knowledge from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyusho_guy
This is dangerous.



[Monty Python voice]No it isn't[/Monty Python voice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyusho_guy
Leave your ego at home



I believe that this is known as the pot calling the kettle black.

You seem to confuse enthusiasm with ego, why?


Quote:

Originally Posted by kyusho_guy
Learn the basics then learn how and what to teach before you post potentially dangerous stuff Gavin.



Why don't you have a nich glass of STFU? mmmmgoood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kyusho_guy
KG




KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#185394 - 09/16/05 01:20 PM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Kempoman]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
THE SCENE: Wild West, sun is setting....KEMPOMAN blows the smoke away from his gun. The body of the strange out of town bad guy lies crumpled in a heap on the floor.

ENTER FROM RIGHT: GAVIN dressed in a Red Gingham Dress, hair platted and bosom heaving.

GAVIN jumps into the arms of KEMPOMAN

GAVIN: My oh my Kempoman, I do declare y'all my hero!

KEMPOMAN carries GAVIN off into the horizon.

[THE END]

ROLE CREDITS

KM, swwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwweeet!

Your Padawan,

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#185395 - 09/16/05 03:36 PM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Gavin]
je8ki9 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/04/05
Posts: 32
Loc: UK
OH MY GOD!!!!
IF id known it was gonna end up like this!
I would never of allowed him to practise karate let alone PPS
I think full contact knitting would have been the order of the day.
_________________________
John King www.gosokempo.com

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#185396 - 09/16/05 06:52 PM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: je8ki9]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hey....real men wear gingham!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#185397 - 09/17/05 03:40 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: je8ki9]
jamesd Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 145
Loc: Essex,England
Hi John,

I don't think Gavin is quite ready for Full Contact knitting, i would suggest some semi contact basket weaving!

On a more serious note, i do believe he's doing a great job with PPS on this forum!!! I'd take my hat off to him if i wore one!! regards,

James
_________________________
www.hardfasthandway.com

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#185398 - 09/17/05 04:55 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: jamesd]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
James with your killer cross stitch, I'm suprised we haven't had a Kempo champ in the UHC (Ulitmate Hobbyist Championship!)

Anyway, cheery banter and back slapping aside, can we try and get this thread back on track. For my guide, thinking about it some more and in view of the opinions stated in this thread, I think it might be worth highlighting the risk of acidental K.O's. I'm still against adding revival techniques per se, but it would be responsiable to highlight the risk and need to seek qualified instruction in the revival methods.

Also, what do the rest of you guys think about adding atlest a brief introduction to some of the concepts of TCM and Daniel's 5 principles of Kyusho. Might encourage the reader to research further? Maybe simply introducing the Cycle of Destruction, Yin and Yang, etc simply as concepts? Or do you guys this might be too much or too indepth for the guide?

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#185399 - 09/17/05 09:26 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Gavin]
jamesd Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 145
Loc: Essex,England
Hi Gavin,

Quote:

Also, what do the rest of you guys think about adding atlest a brief introduction to some of the concepts of TCM and Daniel's 5 principles of Kyusho. Might encourage the reader to research further? Maybe simply introducing the Cycle of Destruction, Yin and Yang, etc simply as concepts? Or do you guys this might be too much or too indepth for the guide?




I think this would be a great idea Gavin!, the subjects mentioned above will provide us with endless discussion, maybe we could discuss Daniel's 5 principles one at a time, that way we might not go too far ahead of ourselves, what do you think mate? regards,

James
_________________________
www.hardfasthandway.com

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#185400 - 09/17/05 10:07 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Gavin]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
I think the present format is ok, not too in depth for the people only beginning to look at this stuff. If it starts getting too deep it may put some people off.
*Note to KG*
I teach people each week how to break bones and suchlike. I don't need to teach them how to set a broken bone first.
It doesn't take a genius to work out that this an academic thread. Anyone stupid enough to try these points out on their own, like me, does so at their own risk.
Now where did I put those patterns...
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#185401 - 09/17/05 12:07 PM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: McSensei]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
IMO the kind of people that have the personality that they'd actually try to use this information to do harm are too lazy to bother to try it out for real. Not to mention training to hit pressure points accurately takes a ton of practice which these lazy people will never make an effort to do.

Just my opinion.

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#185402 - 09/18/05 04:22 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: jamesd]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
[To KG]
I think KG you're probably getting the impression that everybody has completely dismissed your point of view (thanks for the support everyone, BTW). We've got a great oppotunity to help others understand and get into PP's, if you got all this experience, why not help??? If you're not prepared to do this, please please stay out of our threads, you're sorely not welcome.
[/To KG]


Anyway, I've been thinking about this guide a lot. As Mcsensei said, I think it could be very easy to go too indepth with this and put people off before they start. And paradoxbox's point about this stuff not being as easy just reading a webpage is spot on.

My thoughts and intentions at the begining of starting the guide were to provide it in a simple format (afterall McSensei is reading it! hehehehe....Sorry Tony! ) the basics of how to actually attack the points, to act as a companion to the PP of the week threads. Obviously a glaring omission was how to practice them safely (kindly highlighted by MAGr's sensible question!), which has now been included. I will add to the list a caution about K.O's.

Apart from that, I'm pretty much happy with the guide as a howto to help with the PP of the week. I think there is enough information between the PPotW threads and the guide to start getting *experienced* MA's to start looking at the PP's and how they can apply them to there own MA's. We've now got a great oppotunity to start discussing and helping each other apply the points within any given system. I think I'm going to write a bit at the begining of each PPotW asking how people might apply the point within there given system or style. Obviously I only think about it from a Kempo/Karate point of view, between us all I think we could help others apply it to their systems.

So, this brings me onto my idea for the next little project. What are peoples thoughts on a TCM/Kyusho principle of the month/week/whatever time period style post. Much in the same style of the PPotW, keeping it fairly basic, brief and purely academic? At the end we could put it all together into a guide similiar to the PP striking one.

Thoughts, flames and money always welcome!

Gav


Edited by Gavin (09/18/05 04:39 AM)

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#185403 - 09/19/05 08:43 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Gavin]
kempo_student Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Venice, Italy
Ok Gavin,

When I will have enough time i'll write you something about kyusho principles...
25, 26, 27 November I'll be in London for a 3-day George Dillman Martial Arts Training Camp, this seminar is not focused on Kyusho-Jitsu, it's more general... But it will speak about PP, TCM, CHI and traditional (really traditional) eastern MAs.
As you I can't wait... I hope to gain so much as I've gained in the previous seminars.
So I can write you something of HOT

Waiting for that date, I want to continue the PPotW discussion and I'm also interested about the idea of partecipate in the mantaining of the TCM aspect of the month (or another period or another topic).
The problem is that I know a lot about TCM and Kyusho but I'm not properly an expert and so I cannot will be deply, deply on my explanations, and as you know I don't know english so good...
Never the less I am really interested about it.

If this like you, let me know so I can start...

Bye Gav

-----------
Daniele Nosella

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#185404 - 09/19/05 08:59 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Gavin]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Good Morning Gavin:

Question for the man who practices "them" (ie PP)...<wg>? A very fundamental question. The ability to touch and the need for human contact is fundamental to our species. The ability to harm is the classic nature vs. nurture debate.

You practice pp striking... how do you practice this without long term/immediate damage? Whether we believe in chinese medical theory, asian medical modalities or not, if you or I are practicing a technique which is solely intended to render unconsciousness...

How do you practice it without instant damage, and very definate long term harm??? (I can be knocked out how many times a day with no ill effects <wg>)

I can practice throws, I can practice ballistic strikes very gently. How do you "gently" practice rendering unconsciousness, (or disrupting my "energy" flow) without definate and certain inherent damage being done by the practice itself?

Jeff

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#185405 - 09/19/05 10:37 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Ronin1966]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hi Jeff,

Wow, where to start. The ability to harm, I see this as nature personally, we all have an inbuilt natural ability to harm. The nature or nurture arguement is to do with the desire to harm. IMVHO to harm someone who is trying to harm you is a very natural thing. The desire to physically set out to harm someone is related to nurture, although maybe I don't think that is nesscarily the correct term to use. However, I think if the desire to harm is motivated by the need to survive, for example if you kill someone to obtain food or something else essential to your survival, I feel it can fall under nature aswell.

As for practicing rendering someone unconsciousness. I really don't see the difference between this and practicing to throw someone or strike someone. Anything we do, that is capable of harming someone, is going to have a negative effect on the body. Applying a wrist lock, no matter how gently it is applied is still going to cause wear and tear on the body to a certain extent. With throws, at some point (if your trainng for reality that is) you are going to have to have thrown someone properly. Are you going to slam someone into the floor everytime you train? No, not if you want keep on their christmas card list. If you want to learn how to punch, you're going to have to throw one properly. Are you going to throw punches at someone full power 100% of the time? See previous Christmas card statement. PP's are no different.

We can talk about the theory of PP fighting till we're blue in the face, but it doesn't mean that we can effectively use them, at some point you're going to have to put them on. Anyone who has ever practiced PP striking will vouch that once its activated you don't generally want it even touched again, let alone struck. So a majority of the time you won't hit the point really more than once or twice. The rest of the time it is working getting the body to move in the right manner, with the mental intention of striking, but not the full physical intention.

So in anwser to your well put question, I feel that I practice PP's in the same way I do all aspect of the MA's. Sometimes with the full physical and mental intention, which is needed to make sure the job is being done properly, and at other times with full mental intention, but not nesscarily the full physical intention.

Gav

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#185406 - 09/20/05 05:29 PM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Gavin]
Jango Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 28
Hey Gavin are you going to that George Dillman seminar? If so it would be nice if someone gave us a review on how it was .

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#185407 - 09/20/05 05:42 PM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Jango]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
No mate, I'm on a Russell Stutely week long camp that month. What with that and my Shiatsu course I don't have the time or the money to go on a Dillman weekender as well. If anyone goes, be sure to wish George happy birthday though!


Edited by Gavin (09/20/05 06:04 PM)
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#185408 - 09/21/05 05:49 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Jango]
kempo_student Offline
Member

Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Venice, Italy
Hi Jango,
I will go to that seminar, and after I can explain you wich were the contents...
In the end of november I will open a topic to speak a little bit about that seminar.

Bye bye

Daniele Nosella

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#185409 - 09/21/05 06:06 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: kempo_student]
Jango Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 28
Ok thanks Daniele am looking forward to it.

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#185410 - 09/21/05 07:55 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Gavin]
kyushoguy Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 14
Loc: uk
Gavin,

So you refuse to answer my Q's what a surprise, is yer master a secret or none existent.LOL?

And you take a the p out of my health concerns, yet you put a danger warning on yer St9 post.LOL

But dont give the correct revival point?


And jodan uke is good for St5 not St9 unles the guy is bent over.

It is the wrong A+D.

Try it or ask yer master.


And there is not one case of a person having his carotid artery ruptured by a kyusho strike and DKI, KI, Vince morris, and myself have been hitting these places for over 20 years?

And you cannot kill someone by pressing the point with your fingers?

site one case of this happening.

And the KO here is not due to the drop in blood pressure in the heart it is a neurological shutdown.

numerous studies have shown this.

Really does nobody vet the rubbish that is put on here.

This stuff can kill as even Gavin now concedes thought he wont show reivials or safe practice?

KG

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#185411 - 09/21/05 08:27 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: kyushoguy]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
FFS Kyusho you're a fool, and your post clearly shows your complete lack of any clue whatsoever.

Quote:

So you refuse to answer my Q's what a surprise, is yer master a secret or none existent.LOL?




Did you read my response? I clearly stated where my experiece comes from!

Jodan Uke into ST9 is a fantastic shot. Right angle and direction, I have tried it, many many times. With enough force you could probably fire up the Small Intestine and some Triple warmer points to. Your in the UK, pop down and see me, I'll happily show you, you utter prat!

If your blood pressure lowers to a certian point, you feel faint. Eventually you go out and eventually if it drops even further you die!

You criticise me for teaching dangerous stuff, now you criticise me for highlighting dangers. Has anyone died from a Kyusho shot to ST9? Who knows. But only a complete and utter f**king moron would not see that putting pointy things (such as fingers) sharply into the neck could rupture stuff, I was highlighting the absolute danger.

Quote:

And you cannot kill someone by pressing the point with your fingers?





Your joking aren't you? Come on your just a troll trying to get a rise? Lets pick a little point called the carotid artery.....if I squeeze there long enough (yep I'm thinking your neck at the mo!) you're carotid sinus reflex (getting boring yet?) will kick in, blood pressure will drop, and......oh see above, I can't be arsed to explain it again. Tell you what, if you right, try it. I mean really let someone hold on to you for a while, I'm a idiot who doesn't know what I'm talking about, nothing will go wrong. On the other hand, if I right, you'll no longer be able to post here, and the world will be a truly brighter place!

Quote:

And the KO here is not due to the drop in blood pressure in the heart it is a neurological shutdown.
numerous studies have shown this.




I can't even be bothered to answer this point......but, Carotid SINUS FECKING REFLEX!!!!!!!

Quote:

This stuff can kill as even Gavin now concedes thought he wont show reivials or safe practice?




Ok, tell what is the revival for death? Come on, blood pressure drops to the point where it gets dangerously low, oh thats CPR my foolish idiotic friend. Thats right there in my guide, comes under the first aid banner.

Quote:

Really does nobody vet the rubbish that is put on here.





Come on tell me, your a troll aren't you? Please please tell me your a troll. If not, come down, train. Bring some gloves and train. I'd love to compare notes.

But this stuff is vetted, by the Dude who shot you down in flames, Kempoman. Who asked you to provide your obviously extensive Kyusho resume. When he starts telling my stuff is nonsense I'll believe him, you on the other hand are a twat. So have sex and travel.

Mods - sorry for the rant, but this dude is total idiot.

Gav


Edited by Gavin (09/21/05 11:07 AM)

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#185412 - 09/21/05 10:07 AM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: Gavin]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#185413 - 09/21/05 12:34 PM Re: Guide to Pressure Point Basics [Re: kyushoguy]
jamesd Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 145
Loc: Essex,England
Hi Kyushoguy,

I say this as an outsider looking inwards, but it seems to me you have nothing positive to say about this thread , it's quite obvious by other people's posts that we find this section to be informative and worthwhile, we would like to further our knowledge by sharing our research together, to be honest i don't care about your background, or kyusho experience, you could be the most informed person out there but with your present negative attitude you couldn't teach me jacksh*t! If you haven't got anything worthwhile to say then i suggest you stay out of this thread, regards,

James
_________________________
www.hardfasthandway.com

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