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#185019 - 09/10/05 12:44 PM I think I lost my temper......
Eric4444 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 430
.....and made a very bad decision. As a martial artist, I've always felt that if you get into a physical fight, no matter the outcome you yourself has lost, you've failed. I think that it is your duty to not upset someone enough they wish to fight you, or if you do, to be able to talk them down. Martial arts should only be used in situations you can't talk. Such as being jumped on a street, mugged, or any attack in that matter. However I went against all my beliefs last night.
I left the movies with my fiance around 9p.m. I told her to wait infront of theatre and I will drive the car up, since it was raining. When I drove up I saw a group of 3 males around her, about the same age we are. I immediatley got out of my car and started walking over. I new I would have to be careful because these didn't look like the kind of people you want to upset. As I got closer I could hear my fiance telling them to leave her alone, she tried to walk off and one slammed her against the building and said "Want to feel what it's like to get *censored* by a real man." He then shoved one of his hands underneath her skirt. Well at that I lost all senses and ran at them in full speed. They realized I was there when the guy who grapped her fell on his back with blood pouring from his nose.
I started shouting very loudly at the other two telling them to get out of here, one of them tried advancing and I swept his leg, he got up and bolted with the other one. The first guy was just getting up now with a broken nose and kicked him in the stomach and told him that I better never see him again.
That felt extremely good at the time. However now, I feel that it was the wrong thing to do. Was it? Should I have asked them to leave us alone, and walked back into the theatre where there were other people and called the police. I feel as if I failed as martial artist.
_________________________
To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." ~ Sun Tzu ~

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#185020 - 09/10/05 01:04 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Eric4444]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I can only speak as a female that has been in bad spots before: ask your girlfriend if she thought the behaviour was appropriate. I am sure she won't fault you. You both got home, and had the luxury to wonder whether or not you used excessive force. Consider yourself lucky that you have the opportunity to consider your loss of control.

Honestly though, that is the kind of response I would want from someone with me. Heck, it was one of the major reasons I said 'yes' to a Ranger trained Army officer!


Edited by harlan (09/10/05 01:15 PM)

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#185021 - 09/10/05 03:06 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Eric4444]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
We could all very easily take the moral high ground and say you should have escorted your fiance into the theatre and called the police.
What would that actually achieve.
Short answer, nothing.
What is more, is that you would have then spent an age questioning your actions and asking yourself if you acted like a coward. This is sometimes referred to as the black dog. The feeling that you should have acted physically, there and then and protected your loved one, but did not.
This feeling is a millstone to carry around your neck and is not easy to get over. It can also lead to you doubting yourself and from there an easy journey into depression.
Take it from someone who knows. You did the right thing both morally and legally. (you were preventing a sexual assault)
The only thing I would have done different is that I would not have let his accomplices off so lightly.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#185022 - 09/10/05 03:09 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Eric4444]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
The moment he touched your fiance, it was aggravated assault and it is your right (and possibly responsibility) to defend her.

Unusual as this response may seem, coming from me, I don't think you were out of line at all. In the UK you'd have been well within your legal rights doing what you did, as long as you thought you were using reasonable force at the time. Things are always clearer in hindsight but in times of danger we don't have the luxury of contemplation.

The fact is that you and your fiancee were attacked first. You are well within your rights to defend yourself and your fiance if an attack has already begun (and usually before it has happened if you are certain it is going to happen based on criteria which would hold up in court).

If you'd kept on beating them after they stopped fighting back or advancing and didn't leave the scene as soon as possible, that would have been assault or disturbing the peace. Because you did leave and didn't get into a "fight" you are on solid ground legally for self defense.

Only thing you did wrong is you didn't call the police afterwards. You should have called the police, it saves them the hassle of finding you and it might keep some rapists off the street.

Believe me, you're the first person I've ever said "you did the right thing" to on this forum. (There you go, I'm not a sappy pacifist. Within the correct legal framework (following avoidance, VSD, nonviolent measures, etc), physical self defense is a viable final option.) This is a situation where you and your fiance were in genuine danger and you managed to stay focused on protecting yourself and her without getting into a "fight". This is both smart and courageous and shows a great deal of wisdom and self control. I'm sure your instructors would be proud of the way you reacted.

This could be a case study of how to correctly respond to a self defense situation and I would not mind retelling it anecdotally if I ever end up teaching self defense classes. This is almost a text-book description of proper self defense.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#185023 - 09/10/05 03:25 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Leo_E_49]
funstick5000 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
to me you did the right thing. no doubt about it.
_________________________
Go seek the advise of a qualified instructor.

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#185024 - 09/10/05 03:40 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Leo_E_49]
kenposan Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/23/01
Posts: 633
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
This is the second time in as many days that I have agreed with LEO (he just beats me to the response!). It sounds like you did the right thing to me; your gf was for all intents and purposes attacked. You had a right to respond to protect her. It's not like the three guys were just being verbal and you "went off". One guy had his hands on her.
_________________________
The angry man will defeat himself in battle, as well as in life. -Samurai maxim

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#185025 - 09/10/05 03:45 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: kenposan]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

he just beats me to the response




Yet another sign that I spend too much time on these forums.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#185026 - 09/10/05 03:47 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: funstick5000]
PierrePressure Offline
Member

Registered: 07/02/05
Posts: 173
Dude, you did the right thing. If I was your fiance, and you hadn't done that for me, I don't think I would marry you . But aside from personal feelings, really, you DID do the right thing. Like someone else said, had you kept going purely out of rage even after they had surrendered/run away, then I would tell you you went too far, and you should have let the police handle it after you had taught them a lesson. But no, this was self-defense. Don't waste another moment of thought on it.
_________________________
"If life gives you lemons, you blow those lemons to bits with your laser cannon!" - Brak

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#185027 - 09/10/05 03:47 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Eric4444]
Prometej Offline
Member

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Croatia
Right thing. You haven`t failed your MA. You would make any normal sensei proud for not doing too much or too less.
_________________________
Staying silent is the smartest thing to say

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#185028 - 09/10/05 04:20 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Eric4444]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
This is why we train.

Keep this in mind:
You have the right to defend yourself & others so long as your response is REASONABLE & uses only that force which is NECESSARY to eliminate the immediate threat. Any use of force beyond that which is REASONABLE & NECESSARY is, by definition, an assault/battery.

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#185029 - 09/10/05 04:38 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: hedkikr]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Any use of force beyond that which is REASONABLE & NECESSARY is, by definition, an assault/battery.




I think a lot of it is to do with intent too. If you use MA with the intent of making someone "pay" or causing bodily harm to someone which in no way helps you protect yourself, that is assault. If your intent is to protect yourself, you are on good legal grounds. Intent can be shown by walking away, calling the police and attempting to diffuse the situation before hand. Slugging it out, repeatedly kicking someone who's down, taunting, asking for a fight and sticking around does NOT show intent to protect yourself and are BIG indicators of aggravated assault.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#185030 - 09/10/05 04:46 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: hedkikr]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
If you cant use your knowledge to defend people you care about and keep them safe, then what is the point of knowing it? You should not lose a minutes sleep over this. I would strongly suggest that both your fiancee and yourself report this incident to the police. Firstly, this was an aggrivated sexual assault, they will try it again, and their next victim mat not have the good fortune of having someone such as you to help them- you have a social responsibility to get these guys caught.
Second reason, is that as vengeance, the guy you injured could easily have photos taken of his injuries, come up with a story of how you attacked him for no reason, and attempt to get vengeance through criminal and civil court. Your credibility will be weakened considerably in these circumstances because it will appear you have tried to keep the incident from the police. Dont end up on the recieving end of a manipulated legal system.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#185031 - 09/10/05 05:45 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Cord]
funstick5000 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
i want to add that i think you should think about what could have happened to your fiance had you not intervined? might make you feel a hell of a lot better about what you did.
_________________________
Go seek the advise of a qualified instructor.

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#185032 - 09/10/05 05:52 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: funstick5000]
rideonlythelabel Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1242
Loc: st-hubert quebec canada
I think you showed admirable restraint by not murdering everyone.
_________________________
patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.

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#185033 - 09/10/05 07:40 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Eric4444]
Eric4444 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 430
Ok,everyones made me feel better. We have contacted the police as well. I think the main reason I felt guilty was the pleasure I got from it. Seeing him do that to her got me so angry, and at the same time scared of what could have happened to her if I had no been there. I just got this intense feeling of pressure when I heard that guys nose crack and saw it gushing as he fell down.
_________________________
To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." ~ Sun Tzu ~

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#185034 - 09/11/05 05:43 AM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Eric4444]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Yeah well just don't get into doing that sort of thing regularly. What you felt was probably more relief/elation at knowing you saved your fiance.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#185035 - 09/11/05 01:10 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Eric4444]
Tower_Bloodthorn Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 67
Quote:

Ok,everyones made me feel better. We have contacted the police as well. I think the main reason I felt guilty was the pleasure I got from it. Seeing him do that to her got me so angry, and at the same time scared of what could have happened to her if I had no been there. I just got this intense feeling of pressure when I heard that guys nose crack and saw it gushing as he fell down.



I think we'd all derive a perverted pleasure from something like that. If someone did that to my girlfriend...i think i would have punched him in the throat, then stomped on his groin for good measure. You obviously intimidated his friends too. I'd have had my girlfriend call the police. If these guys had no problems with pulling something like that out in front of a movie theatre then who know's what they might do somewhere that isn't crowded with people.

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#185036 - 09/11/05 02:25 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Tower_Bloodthorn]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
The thing to remember is that a lot of combatants get a kind of physical pleasure from the adrenaline rush etc of combat, you may have been experiencing a similar thing. your following doubts are like a 'come down' after the rush. We all get those in a lot of different types of situations. (How many times have you done something you thought was great and then pulled yourself to pieces about how you could have done it better?... never? Oh must just be me then).

The thing is if you had calmy walked and asked the fellow to remove himself you might have found yourself outnumbered, a knife in your face and the element of surprise on their side. Well done.

BTW have you talked it over with your sensei?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#185037 - 01/07/06 04:35 AM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: funstick5000]
Shaolinboy Offline
Member

Registered: 01/19/04
Posts: 256
Loc: England
I think you did well and be proud of yourself for protecting your fiance! I hope i have the same nerve to do the same if anyone attacks someone i care about especially a girlfriend! But i do recall even before starting my Martial Arts training i was walking at night with a couple of girls I know and these guys were following us some of the way home and one of them asked for a cigarette or a light i think but they didn't have one so they were called offensive names. I just kept silent and didn't anything, infact I walked ahead of them faster!
And another situation i was in was when i was in a pub with some female friends (I had just started doing kung fu) and we had some grief from some guy in his late 40s early 50s over some stupid misunderstanding! I felt scared and just stared down at my drink and kept silent but I know violence would not have been the answer but i do feel ashamed of myslef in both situations as i never spoke up for my friends and I'm not sure if i coudl defend anyone!

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#185038 - 01/07/06 07:57 AM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: McSensei]
NathanZhang Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/07/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Tuo Luo Yi, Mixigenzhou, Meigu...
Quote:

We could all very easily take the moral high ground and say you should have escorted your fiance into the theatre and called the police.
What would that actually achieve.
Short answer, nothing.
What is more, is that you would have then spent an age questioning your actions and asking yourself if you acted like a coward. This is sometimes referred to as the black dog. The feeling that you should have acted physically, there and then and protected your loved one, but did not.
This feeling is a millstone to carry around your neck and is not easy to get over. It can also lead to you doubting yourself and from there an easy journey into depression.
Take it from someone who knows. You did the right thing both morally and legally. (you were preventing a sexual assault)
The only thing I would have done different is that I would not have let his accomplices off so lightly.




That's right, that's how i feel about it too... the only thing is, if i were there, i would have knockout-ed the three b*st*rds with a CMA neijia techniques instantly known as "Fa Jing", escorted the lady into the building, and notified security. Technically, with fa jing, the guys would be out for quite a few hours, and they blackout, so they would never be able to identify you.

Good job on a nice streetfight. Though if you learned Aikikai, you never would of needed to out the first guy before they all left crying to dar mommies like babies LOL...
_________________________
My name, GUANNAN, means "Champion". Wushu makes me a better champion.

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#185039 - 01/07/06 10:31 AM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Leo_E_49]
Ethanael Offline
Member

Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 92
I'm sure that, at the very least, your fiance was grateful.
And those guys will think twice before trying that sort of thing again.

You did the right thing, and you didn't lose your temper. If you had lost your temper, they'd all probably be dead or crippled right now.

You're on good legal ground, it seems. You were protecting your fiance. If you hadn't done what you did, she might've found herself in a very bad situation. And then you would've had to deal with the, "Why didn't you help me? We should really reconsider marriage..."

And that sort of thing.

Good job. : )


Edited by Ethanael (01/07/06 10:31 AM)
_________________________
Supporting Sanchin31 as he says "Nuts to cancer"

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#185040 - 01/07/06 06:39 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: funstick5000]
Sidekick Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 42
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Quote:

to me you did the right thing. no doubt about it.



Exactly. Just I wouldent have stopped with a kick to the stomach, no way in hell..
_________________________
If you wish to taste the ground... feel free to attack me. And by all means go on ahead.

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#185041 - 01/07/06 06:45 PM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Eric4444]
mean_fighter Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/05
Posts: 160
I think you acted appropriatly no doubt about it

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#185042 - 01/08/06 03:18 AM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Eric4444]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
Stop second guessing yourself, you deserve a medal.

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#185043 - 01/10/06 05:54 AM Re: I think I lost my temper...... [Re: Intrepidinv1]
traz Offline
Member

Registered: 12/29/04
Posts: 99
Loc: Canada
I can tell you that many of us on the forum would have taken it alot farther than you did
_________________________
MMA Hapkidoist Like a midget at a urinal, I'm always on my toes.

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