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#184359 - 07/03/07 08:29 PM Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM [Re: musicalmike235]
jpoor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
Quote:

Hmm, whats that concept I have heard so much about? Oh yeah, its called Mixed Martial Arts Tournaments.




That would not answer two of the points from the OP:

Quote:

How do you test if your system is effective as a self defense art.


(the key being self defense, NOT competition).

Quote:

And i also dont mean in a controlled or passive way.


(MMA _is_ controlled, whether we admit it or not).
_________________________
Don't let the white belt fool you. . .
I know even less than you might think.

Best,
Jim

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#184360 - 07/03/07 08:33 PM Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM [Re: jpoor]
musicalmike235 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/30/07
Posts: 64
Even though MMA is competition in a controlled environment, it is close enough to a real fight where it still makes a great test bed. Let me ask you this, would you really honestly believe that an MMA fighter would be unable to defend himself out on the streets?

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#184361 - 07/03/07 08:37 PM Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM [Re: jpoor]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

(MMA _is_ controlled, whether we admit it or not).




Controlled? Certainly. All training, scenario based or not, must be controlled to avoid injury to the practitioners. Otherwise we are fighting for real, not training.

There is nothing saying you can't add multiple opponents or weapons, surprise attacks, etc, to MMA style training. Another question may be, "What is better than MMA training for testing your system?"

I haven't seen anything better. But I am interested to hear other ideas.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#184362 - 07/03/07 08:39 PM Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM [Re: musicalmike235]
jpoor Offline
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Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
They would probably be better equipped than the average Joe, but may not be as well equipped as someone who has trained specifically (and properly) for combative self defense.

I could say the same for quite a few hockey player, rugby players, etc.
_________________________
Don't let the white belt fool you. . .
I know even less than you might think.

Best,
Jim

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#184363 - 07/03/07 08:49 PM Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM [Re: MattJ]
jpoor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
Quote:

Quote:

(MMA _is_ controlled, whether we admit it or not).




Controlled? Certainly. All training, scenario based or not, must be controlled to avoid injury to the practitioners. Otherwise we are fighting for real, not training.

There is nothing saying you can't add multiple opponents or weapons, surprise attacks, etc, to MMA style training. Another question may be, "What is better than MMA training for testing your system?"

I haven't seen anything better. But I am interested to hear other ideas.




We weren't talking about training in this instance. We were talking about competitions. By controlled, I meant there are rules. In SD _training_ or _testing_ of the system's effectiveness, there shouldn't be rules other than don't injure your partner.


Edited by jpoor (07/03/07 08:49 PM)
_________________________
Don't let the white belt fool you. . .
I know even less than you might think.

Best,
Jim

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#184364 - 07/04/07 12:26 AM Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM [Re: Mannie]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Theres no way to really test your system thats legal. And really just because everybody in your class got into a real fight and kicked butt don't mean you will.

The only thing you can do as mentioned is do reality based training, scenarios, multiples and range work. Train in street clothes with the shoes you usually wear. Be able to modify your methods in order to survive. And have a planned escape route.

Like I mentioned you can be the best tourney fighter and do great in class, but when you are faced with someone viciously saying and wanting to hurt you. You don't know, some people mentally freeze other people trainng kicking in. Mentally you have to forced yourself in survival mode, its strongest primal urge we have, the will to survive, let it out.
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#184365 - 07/04/07 12:31 AM Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM [Re: jpoor]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


......We weren't talking about training in this instance. We were talking about competitions. By controlled, I meant there are rules.





There are ALWAYS rules. Everywhere you train there are rules.


Quote:


In SD _training_ or _testing_ of the system's effectiveness, there shouldn't be rules other than don't injure your partner.





Then that's is more rules restrictive than in an MMA competition, correct?



-John

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#184366 - 07/04/07 07:17 AM Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM [Re: Mannie]
NewJitsu Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Midlands, UK
If you're concerned how effective your own art is and your proficiency in it, address your classes and your fear of fighting. Some people would advocate competition (and then you naturally open up the realism / rules / sparring / UFC debate that seemingly rages on most threads. Others I know attcaked their questions head-on and applied for Door work. Starting at Universities and working their way up to bars, clubs and so on.

If you spend an unhealthy amount of time wondering about the real effectiveness of your art, then choose one of the two, I reckon. Or just stop worrying and concentrate on training and hope you never have to use it for real.

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#184367 - 07/04/07 09:23 AM Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM [Re: JKogas]
jpoor Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/11/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Fairfax, VA
Not really. The rules in place in MMA are there specifically to prevent injury as well as possible.

What I mean as far as SD testing is that techniques should not be limited. That said, we have to know that you can't really knife hand someone in the throat or gouge out their eyes. You can go full force on other techniques and then "pull" on the ones that are really dangerous. It ain't perfect for sure.
_________________________
Don't let the white belt fool you. . .
I know even less than you might think.

Best,
Jim

Top
#184368 - 07/04/07 09:48 AM Re: HOW DO YOU TEST YOUR SYSTEM [Re: jpoor]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Not really. The rules in place in MMA are there specifically to prevent injury as well as possible.





So you're telling me that people are injured right and left in your training for SD?

I don't think you're seeing my point. If you're not getting injured at ALL in training, how can you honestly say that what you're doing is more "real" than what occurs within an MMA match?


Quote:


What I mean as far as SD testing is that techniques should not be limited.





But they ARE limited! They're limited in how you use them. Thus is my point.


Quote:


That said, we have to know that you can't really knife hand someone in the throat or gouge out their eyes.





Bingo!


Quote:


You can go full force on other techniques and then "pull" on the ones that are really dangerous. It ain't perfect for sure.





Examples of which are?

What is anymore perfect than full resistance from those you're training against?



-John

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