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#183868 - 09/05/05 12:26 PM Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take?
Bakerman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 11
I am interested in talking a grappling art. Im not sure whether to take Judo or Ju ju jitsu. Can someone tell me the pros and cons of each and make a recomendation.

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#183869 - 09/05/05 01:53 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Bakerman]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Certainly what research have you already done on your own?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#183870 - 09/05/05 02:03 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: glad2bhere]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Judo is usually much more competative.
_________________________
"The deeper you delve into philosophy the sadder you become."

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#183871 - 09/05/05 05:22 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: MiSt]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
That really depends on how you train jiu-jitsu. Brazilian jiu-jitsu is HIGHLY competitive.


-John

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#183872 - 09/05/05 10:35 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: glad2bhere]
Bakerman Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 11
basically both use the same princables of fighting including throws, locks, and cholks. Judo is japanese, jujitsu is brazillian both i think are used as sports but i just dont know which one i should take???....

drop me a line someone...

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#183873 - 09/06/05 07:51 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Bakerman]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Japanese and Brasillian styles of Jujutsu are different. BJJ is highly sport oriented. JJJ is more oriented to tranining the art. What you pick really depends on your goals, do you want to compete or are you interested in learning applications of an art. If you want to compete then BJJ or Judo is the way to go. BJJ works more on groundwork and Judo works more on throws.

Really it doesn't matter which type of style you use, the techniques are pretty much all the same, just taught in different ways.

Really the best way to start is to find a school and go try it out. Most schools give a free 1-2 introductory lessons. Go find the art you're most comfortable with.
_________________________
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(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#183874 - 09/07/05 06:00 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
The original Japanese Jujitsu was designed around combat style until in 1882 Dr. Jigoro Kano eliminated many of the dangerous techniques and made it more of a sport martial art for competition. Brazilian Jujitsu is an off shoot of both of these arts.

They all have similarities and differences but when one is learned it can be an easy transition to the others ... as I've seen from my own Instructor ... then again it may also have to do with the person.

Do what Leo says, try a few out and see what you like best and then decide.

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#183875 - 09/07/05 06:38 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Dereck]
southpawpyro Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 2
japanese jujitsu also has more standing locks and chokes than bjj which is mostly groundfighting. ive heard this is because helio gracie was is such a little guy that he had trouble making the standup holds work. im not too familiar with judo, but crosstraining between jiu jitsu and judo would probably make a good combo.
_________________________
its all about the size of the fight in the dog

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#183876 - 09/07/05 07:58 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Bakerman]
infohungry Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 5
Loc: palmdale,ca, usa
hea im jon well a year ago i was stuck in the same position but with all martial arts and i found that it depends on what you want to learn! like with ju jitsu its more of ground fighting and grappeling! and judo is more like karate and other standing fighting! so really its what you want to learn!
if you want to fight mostly on the ground and do holds and stouf then do ju jitusu. and if you want to stand then do judo! the decision is yours. i hope i helped at all!

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#183877 - 09/08/05 04:13 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Dereck]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

The original Japanese Jujitsu was designed around combat style until in 1882 Dr. Jigoro Kano eliminated many of the dangerous techniques and made it more of a sport martial art for competition. Brazilian Jujitsu is an off shoot of both of these arts.




Interesting, here I was thinking that Kano created Kodokan JJ. I study an school of JJ which predates Kodokan by nearly 200 years (1660). Kodokan is not the original Jujutsu, plenty of styles predate it. It gradually became known as Judo, I believe. And no, Jujutsu is still trained today with all the nasty bits left in, I assure you.
_________________________
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#183878 - 09/08/05 05:46 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Bakerman]
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Leo did a good job of pointing out the differences between the two.

But there are very wrong statements that need to be corrected for the benefit of those who simply don't know:

Quote:

Judo is japanese, jujitsu is brazillian




Judo and JuJitsu are Japanese.

As for the name "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" It's a generic term for Jiu-Jitsu practiced in Brazil. It came about as a way of competing with the term "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu". At least thats the story I heard.

Quote:

ive heard this is because helio gracie was is such a little guy that he had trouble making the standup holds work




Helio focused on groundwork because the Gracie family was taught Kosen Judo (which is focused on groundwork) from Maeda. Supposedly Helio improved the Jiu-Jitsu he learned because of his smaller stature.

Quote:

judo is more like karate and other standing fighting!




Judo and Karate are nothing alike. Judo, as typically taught in the US, is focused on throws, with very little in the way punching and kicking. Karate is just the opposite.

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#183879 - 09/08/05 06:22 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: BigRod]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Having dabbled a bit in judo, jujitsu, and backhold wrestling, as well as doing a fair bit of TKD, I'd suggest that whether to take up Judo or JJ could be influenced by whether you've done any other styles before. If you've tried striking arts then jujitsu would allow you to keep and use some of these whilst also learning serious grappling. JJ also has the bonus that some styles include weapon training (if that appeals to you). That being said, judo is great too.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#183880 - 09/08/05 01:11 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Bakerman]
IronBones Offline
Member

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 67
Loc: Ashland Illinois
I'd take jiu-jitsu. Dooesn't matter if it's Brazillian or japanese. Personally I've done Brazillian j for 2 years amd I've never had more fun.

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#183881 - 09/08/05 01:55 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Leo, I should have explained this better. Jujitsu is what it is, I didn't mean to imply that Jujitsu changed, sorry. What I should have said is Dr. Jigoro Kano after taking out many of the dangerous techniques formed "Judo" and I believe he is its founder.

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#183882 - 09/08/05 05:15 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Bakerman]
Tant01 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 24
Quote:

basically both use the same princables of fighting including throws, locks, and cholks. Judo is japanese, jujitsu is brazillian both i think are used as sports but i just dont know which one i should take???....

drop me a line someone...





When you study Judo you will in fact be learning techniques from older schools of Ju-Jutsu. It is common knowledge that many of the best Ju-Jutsu masters were consulted by Kano in the developement of the Kodokan techniques.
_________________________
In Ferro Veritas. “In the sword is truth.”

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#183883 - 09/09/05 11:07 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Tant01]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Quote:


When you study Judo you will in fact be learning techniques from older schools of Ju-Jutsu. It is common knowledge that many of the best Ju-Jutsu masters were consulted by Kano in the developement of the Kodokan techniques.




Nooooooo....

That's not accurate, Judo is NOT jujutsu. It was based off of jujutsu however it is far safer to practice than classical jujutsu is. Almost all joint manipulation techniques are dissallowed, there's a heavy atmosphere of competition and the footwork is generally very different. In addition almost every judoka I know has a special 'favorite throw', which is normally shunned in the jujutsu world.

Other thing I noticed, jiu-jitsu is NOT Japanese, that's something American and Brazillian. Jujutsu is Japanese. The spelling matters as they are 2 entirely different words and actually define styles of jujutsu from eachother these days.

If you like the competitive atmosphere, judo may be right for you. I have done some judo and found it to be quite fun. It is also a decent means of self defense for unarmed situations, and if you do a lot of randori (sparring) you will feel a lot more confident in your personal safety.

However it has no standing arm locks, leg locks are not allowed, no nasty attacks etc.. Plus there are very many judoka out there so if you happen to get into a fight with one you'd better hope he's not better than you, or he'll counter your technique right away.

Traditional jujutsu is better from a pure self defense standpoint, it includes almost all of the actual techniques found in judo (plus the nasty stuff judo removed for safety) but lacks the randori and competition.

Hope this helps.

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#183884 - 09/09/05 02:24 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Bakerman]
Judomom Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/12/04
Posts: 5
Everyone here is right...your choice. Ju jitsu students do compete with judo students at judo tournaments. But not usually the other way around. Jujitsu students initially have a broader knowledge of chokes and locks. Judo students don't have a knowledge of locks beyond arm locks and they tend to get creamed by leg and wrist locks. Jujitsu students study judo to learn better control in their matwork and throws...Jujitsu really doesn't study pinning and throws the way judo does. To be a well rounded judo player you need to be equally effective in standing and matwork, not so for jujitsu students.

Judo came from JJ. BJJ came from judo. So, really, what came first? One of Kano's students went to Brazil, married and stayed; but, didn't have the rank to formally teach judo. So, he called what he taught jujitsu. Kano studied and mastered multiple schools of jujitsu, but didn't like the fact that students got injured all the time. So he simplified and streamlined techniques and eliminated the dangerous and ineffective ones and called it judo. (check out the most recent biography on Kano).

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#183885 - 09/10/05 08:18 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Judomom]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
wasn't it also called 'Kano Jujitsu' in the early days?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#183886 - 09/15/05 11:04 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Bakerman]
Caino Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 12
Loc: NSW, Australia
I've been studing Japanese Jiu jitsu for about four and a half years now, My question to you is how confused do you want to get? The more I learn, The more I realise how little I know.
Judo was developed as a safer way to practise traditional jiu jitsu and therefore judo's techniques are generally modifications of jiu jitsu techniques. They both follow the same principals, eg breaking opponents balance, yeilding to force etc.
A good traditional jiu jitsu dojo may be harder to find than a judo dojo, but you may be lucky and find them both rolled into one.
I'd say look for whats available and go try them, see what you like, The best martial art is the one you enjoy because you'll stick with it.

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#183887 - 09/15/05 11:11 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: paradoxbox]
Caino Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 12
Loc: NSW, Australia
Other thing I noticed, jiu-jitsu is NOT Japanese, that's something American and Brazillian. Jujutsu is Japanese. The spelling matters as they are 2 entirely different words and actually define styles of jujutsu from eachother these days.





From what I've been able to find out The "i" in Jiu-jitsu represents a chinese influence in the art. Not entirely sure if thats correct but I thought I'd chuck it out there and see what happens.

I'm also new to this forum thing and don't know how to get this writing out of the quote box

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#183888 - 09/15/05 02:09 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Caino]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Caino

The derivation of the word and the art is japanese.

There are a couple of different spellings. Sometimes someone comes up with their own word to denote their specific art.
So someone may well have changed the spelling to indicate some personal aspect of the art--but that only applies to THAT SPECIFIC art.

Adding an "i" to the FRONT of spelling (ie jiu) means little outside of the specific dojo that uses it.

But "i" is sometimes used on the second half of the word.
Jujutsu OR sometimes jujitsu (older varient)
But both are japanese.


Edited by cxt (09/15/05 02:12 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#183889 - 09/15/05 02:52 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: cxt]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
A lot of convenient inaccuracies in this thread.

One thing to think about is that Kodokan Judo actually contains a fairly comprehensive SD curriculum in addition to it's emphasis on "growing together" (Competition = Together, We Grow).

There are two schools of thought.

1. That Judo is sport only. That it was designed as such and made safe for play with dangerous techniques removed and thus less appropriate for self defense.

or...

2. That Judo was developed for maximum efficiency in learning, application and personal development. That many of the more "dangerous" techniqes were also determined by Kano to be less effective, efficient and reliable and ommited for that reason.

I lean toward the second. The argument against Judo as an art seems to me, to be driven by those with little actual training time in traditional Judo and even less time on the mat.

Just my opinion.
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www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#183890 - 09/15/05 03:03 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Fletch1]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA

Fletch

Suppose it depends on what a person means when they say "dangerous."

Having been on the receiving end of a number of "safe" judo techniques I can personally state that they could easily do some serious harm.

For those interested,Steve Cunningham has written some excellent articles on the subject of early judo.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#183891 - 09/17/05 12:48 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: cxt]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Whiskey is Irish or American, Whisky is Scotch but after half a bottle it means nothing. The spelling doesn't affect the effectiveness.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#183892 - 09/19/05 12:49 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: trevek]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
bump

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#183893 - 09/20/05 02:19 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: trevek]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
trevek,

Affect effectiveness...Love it! Nice analogy.

-B

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#183894 - 09/20/05 03:31 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: butterfly]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Thanks Butterfly, glad you like it You can use it if you like .
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#183895 - 09/20/05 02:15 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Bakerman]
americanNinja Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/19/05
Posts: 6
Bakerman,

Which should you take, Judo or Jujutsu? Personally, I'd take the one that is readily available and close to you. Both arts are essentially the same. Both fighting methods have nage waza and atemi waza, but each focus more on the other. Judo focuses a lot on nage waza (throwing techniques and ne waza), jujutsu focuses more (atemi waza and ne waza).

Atemi waza are striking techniques and ne waza is ground techniques. When you do randori (free practice) in judo, and I believe even in Jujutsu atemi is illegal. You are not allowed to hit. Atemi waza is usually practiced only in katas (or forms).

If you take Judo, and you throw someone it will hurt equally as if you learned it from jujutsu. If you hit someone in Judo or Jujutsu it will hurt. Except, atemi is not really focused on in Judo until shodan (1st deg bb). But to be honest, I have never seen anyone practice atemi in judo.

So just go in and pick a class and have fun. I guarantee that your first few classes will be spent on ukemi whether it is jujutsu or judo or even aikido. In judo or jujutsu the first thing you're likely to be taught is ogoshi. After that, you'll probably go into O Soto Gari the progression is the same. Maybe you'll get into a throwing circle and you'll take your turns giving and receiving a beating. An occassionally some ad hoc ne waza... ultimately it is the same. So just take the class and enjoy. Whichever one you pick you're going to have fun because Ogoshi and O Soto Gari are fool proof when it comes to unsuspecting opponents! Hahaha!!!

Have fun!

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#183896 - 10/28/05 04:08 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: americanNinja]
Newbi Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 2
I finaly fonud the courage to start practising martial arts but i dont know which to take?
I have been fascinted by grappling arts, but dont know which to take judo or ju jitsu?, is there even a signifact difference between them or is it just the name and a few techinchs? Is judo then only ju jitsu without punchens and kicks? i'm confused.
sorry for my english.

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#183897 - 10/28/05 04:28 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Newbi]
RobNus Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
there is a huge difference between them. Modern judo is largely sport, while if you choose classical jujutsu it is more of a martial art in the full sense of the word. they both have the same roots, but are very different today.

there are techniques that exist in both, and sometimes the overlap may seem quite large, but the intention is different. in judo, they are used to score points. in jujutsu, they are used to hurt. that is why strikes are VERBOTEN in judo, because they are too dangerous for sport.

not taking away from judo at all! its great, and builds great exponents. but it is still a combat sport in which you score points. jujutsu is a martial art.
_________________________
Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#183898 - 10/28/05 06:54 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: RobNus]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

there are techniques that exist in both, and sometimes the overlap may seem quite large, but the intention is different. in judo, they are used to score points. in jujutsu, they are used to hurt. that is why strikes are VERBOTEN in judo, because they are too dangerous for sport.





Aren't strikes verboten in jiu-jitsu training as well?



Quote:


not taking away from judo at all! its great, and builds great exponents. but it is still a combat sport in which you score points. jujutsu is a martial art.




Can't people train striking in Judo? I've seen it done within the context of judo. Doesn't that mean anything? Is that not still judo? If not, why not?

If you PRACTICE judo for competition, then you're training for a sport. If you practice judo for self defense, then it's for self defense. See the point I'm getting at?

"Judo" is just an art. It's how you TRAIN it which will determine it's "use".


-John

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#183899 - 10/28/05 07:45 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: JKogas]
RobNus Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
Quote:

Aren't strikes verboten in jiu-jitsu training as well?




Eh no. Strikes are done in a controlled manner to avoid injury. Hard enough to have a small effect, but soft enough to avoid lasting damage.

And any judo i have trained in or seen, it has all been geared towards competition. i was told i couldn't do things i could do in jujutsu because it was "unsafe" and a real gem: "unsportsmanlike".

So in my experience, judo is primarily nowadays geared towards sport. which is a shame, because it was once so much more than this. I agree that if it taught with the intention of teaching self defense, then it is useful. all i meant was that a lot of schools teach it as a sport.

no offence to any judoka meant, i enjoy training in judo too.
_________________________
Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#183900 - 10/29/05 03:34 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: RobNus]
Newbi Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 2
Whats so wrong with judo being sport? Everybody loves sports.
Still i dont know whats better for a begginer like me?

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#183901 - 10/29/05 08:46 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: RobNus]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Quote:

Aren't strikes verboten in jiu-jitsu training as well?




Eh no. Strikes are done in a controlled manner to avoid injury. Hard enough to have a small effect, but soft enough to avoid lasting damage.




Seen that done in Judo, Brazilian jiu-jitsu as well. Don’t see how Japanese jiu-jitsu is any different. It’s called “vale tudo”.

Besides, it’s still all “pretend” isn’t it?

Quote:


And any judo i have trained in or seen, it has all been geared towards competition. i was told i couldn't do things i could do in jujutsu because it was "unsafe" and a real gem: "unsportsmanlike".




MY point is that you’re STILL not really doing anything in jujutsu that is “unsafe” or “unsportsmanlike”. How is it any different?

Are you REALLY hurting your training partners, or just pretending to? See the point?

Quote:


So in my experience, judo is primarily nowadays geared towards sport. which is a shame, because it was once so much more than this. I agree that if it taught with the intention of teaching self defense, then it is useful. all i meant was that a lot of schools teach it as a sport.




It’s no different than anything else UNLESS you are training specifically for a rules event. Not everyone does. It pays to be aware of this.


-John

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#183902 - 10/29/05 12:31 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: JKogas]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Quote:

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Aren't strikes verboten in jiu-jitsu training as well?




Eh no. Strikes are done in a controlled manner to avoid injury. Hard enough to have a small effect, but soft enough to avoid lasting damage.




Seen that done in Judo, Brazilian jiu-jitsu as well. Don’t see how Japanese jiu-jitsu is any different. It’s called “vale tudo”.

Besides, it’s still all “pretend” isn’t it?





BJJ does use strikes but Judo I believe leaves them mostly until after black belt.

In terms of JJJ it depends on which school you go to really, I've trained briefly in a school where they regularly get out the MMA gloves and go at it pretty hard, no rules. There are so many different styles and schools out there. Some of them won't touch strikes until after black belt and others will be training "full contact striking" at white belt.
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#183903 - 11/04/05 02:19 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Bakerman]
IronBones Offline
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Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 67
Loc: Ashland Illinois
Jiu-Jitsu is not brazilian in origin. It is, rootly japanese but brazilian jiu-jitsu and gracie jiu-jitsu are brazilian. In relation to that, I think you should take Brazilian jiu-jitsu

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#183904 - 11/09/05 11:14 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: IronBones]
h2whoa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 427
Loc: Fiji
Modern judo has its origins in jujitsu, a fighting art that can be traced back over a thousand years into Japanese history. Judo itself, however, is a relatively recent synthesis and owes it existence to the genius of one man: Dr. Jigoro Kano.

Jigoro Kano was born in the seaside town of Mikage in 1860. He and his family moved to Tokyo in 1871. Mr. Kano studied politics and literature at Tokyo Imperial University. He became an instructor of the Gakushuin in 1882 and eleven years later, he was appointed the Headmaster of the Koto Shihan, a teachers' training school. In 1909, Professor Kano became the first Japanese member of the International Olympic Committee and two years later, he founded the Japanese Athletic Association and became its first president. Because of his many contributions in the field of athletics, Professor Kano is called the "Father of Physical Education and Sport" in Japan.

Professor Kano is internationally known for the development of judo. Until he was 18 years of age, Jigoro Kano was physically weak. He resolved to improve himself by studying at two jujitsu schools. He soon realized that each school had its strengths and weaknesses. Because there was unnecessary roughness and crudeness in the jujitsu techniques, and because it was difficult to practice without injury he began to reconstruct jujitsu. As he states in his own words: "...so by taking together all the good points I had learned from the various schools and adding thereto my own devices and inventions, I founded a new system for physical culture and mental training." Kano called his new system Kodokan Judo to differentiate it from the jujitsu forms. "Judo" means "the gentle way" and "kodokan" generally means "a school for studying the way", "the way" being the concept of life itself.

Again, in Kano's words:" "There are two reasons why I avoided the term 'jujitsu'. One is that there were jujitsu schools which often indulged in violent and dangerous techniques in throwing or twisting arms and legs. Seeing these things, many people came to believe jujitsu was harmful. Again, in an exercise hall where supervision was inadequate, the senior pupils would wantonly throw down juniors or pick quarrels, so that jujitsu was despised as something that made rowdies of young men. I wished to show that what I taught was not a dangerous thing, and would not needlessly injure any person, that it was not the jujitsu as it was taught by some people , and that it was "judo", an entirely different thing.

"The second reason was that when I began to teach jujitsu had fallen into disrepute. Some jujitsu masters made their living by organizing groups composed of their followers, and putting on exhibition matches to which admission fees were charged. Some went so far to stage bouts between professional sumo wrestlers and jujitsu men. Such degrading practices of prostitution of martial arts were repugnant to me, so I avoided the term jujitsu and adopted judo in its stead."

The Kodokan was first established in 1882 with only nine students the first year. Soon, the new Kodokan Judo became the center of public attention. But its practical merits were looked upon with contempt by most old jujitsu men, including master Hikosuke Totsuka. There soon developed a keen rivalry between the Kodokan and the Totsuka School. Things came to a head in 1886. In Kano's words: "Under the auspices of the Chief of Metropolitan Police, a grand tournament was arranged between both schools. This was a decisive battle. Defeat would have been fatal to the Kodokan. But in that tournament, to which each school sent 15 picked men, the Kodokan won all the bouts excepting two, which ended in a draw. That brilliant victory established once and for all the supremacy of Kodokan Judo over all jujitsu schools."

One of the principles of judo is that a stronger opponent can be defeated by turning his strength against himself. Professor Kano explains how in yielding there is strength: "Suppose we estimate the strength of a man in units of one. Let us say that the strength of this man is 10 units, whereas my strength, less than his, is 7 units. Then if he pushes me with all his force, I shall certainly be pushed back or thrown down, even if I use all my strength against him. This would happen from opposing strength to strength. But if instead of opposing him, I leave him unresisted, withdrawing my body just as much as he pushes, at the same time keeping my balance, he will naturally lean forward and lose his balance. In this new position, he may become weak (not in actual physical strength, but because of his awkward position) as to reduce his strength for the moment, say to 3 units only instead of 10 units. But meanwhile I, by keeping my balance, retain my full strength, as originally represented by 7 units. Here then, I am momentarily in a superior position, and I can defeat my opponent by using only half of my strength, or 3 1/2 units against his 3 units. This leaves one-half of my strength available for any other purpose. If I had greater strength than my opponent, I could of course push him back. But even if I wished to and had the power to do so, it would still be better for me first to give way, because by so doing, I should have greatly saved my energy and exhausted my opponent's."

Jigoro Kano died in May 1938 while returning from the Cairo International Olympic Conference. Men's judo was first included in the Olympic Games in 1964 and became a permanent part of the Games in 1972. In 1992, women's judo became part of the Olympic Games as well. Kano defined the two principles of Kodokan Judo as "Maximum Efficiency with Minimum Effort" and "Mutual Welfare and Benefit". He said that "physical education should train the body to be strong, healthy and useful in actual life and also make a contribution to the culture of the mind." His system of judo is just that.

Under the Feudal System of Japan, several military arts flourished among the samurai class. Examples of these arts are archery, fencing, horsemanship, the use of spears, the Katana - sword of the Samurai - and other weapons. All of these forms were more or less familiar to the people of most European nations. Virtually all of the martial arts have been practiced in the Western World with an excellence equal to the Japanese, although their forms and methods were not quite the same as those practiced in Japan. The skill of gaining victory by yielding to the opponent's strength appears to be an art peculiar to Japan: no similar art form has ever been known or practiced in any European country.

Although the origin of Jujutsu is not clear, and no fixed date of its first appearance can be ascertained, there is no doubt that it is a purely Japanese art. Further, it has not been derived from ancient Chinese Martial Arts as some scholars of the martial arts have proposed. It has been a common belief of various researchers that a Chinese priest named Chin Genpin brought the art of Kempo, "kicking and striking", to Japan around 1659. In 1659, Chin Genpin became a naturalized Japanese subject and died in 1671.

While engaged in the practice of Jujutsu at the Kokushij Temple in Tokyo, he taught three ronin (out of work samurai) named Fukuno, Isogai, and Miura. After extensive development of their skills, they founded three different Jujutsu Ryu independently of one another. It is not possible that Chin Genpin first introduced Jujutsu into Japan, because Chinese Kempo - which may have been brought over by him - is quite different from Japanese Jujutsu, and because some arts resembling Jujutsu can be traced back to before the time of Chin Genpin in Japan.

Evidence that Jujutsu prevailed in Japan in ancient times is indicated by an incident, which occurred in 24 B. C., when the Emperor Suinin ordered two strong men named Sukune and Kuehaya to wrestle in his presence. This struggle to test the strength and courage of the two ancient giants consisted mainly of kicking, hitting, and gouging with Sukune gaining advantage of his opponent by breaking his ribs, after which he "trampled" upon his loins and back until Kuehaya was fatally injured. Although this incident is generally cited as being the origin of wrestling in Japan, it would seem that it was actually more in the nature of Jujutsu in view of the fact that Kuehaya was kicked and gouged to death.

Sumo wrestling is the national sport of Japan, but it is not the only nationalistic sport derived from the ancient court wrestling of the Nara emperors. When wrestling was banned by edict in 1175 A. D., an atmosphere fostering creative development of all types of hand -to-hand fighting arts was started under the influence of the military. This developmental period lasted several centuries and continued even after the Portuguese explorers arrived in 1543. Ultimately, no less than 725 official documented systems of Jujutsu were developed all of which concentrated on situations in which no "major" weapons were involved. All together, these systems were called Jujutsu.

As it is not possible to discuss all of the different branches (Ryu) of Jujutsu, this writing will mention a few of those, which are generally considered to the most significant developments in the art. The oldest Jujutsu movement is the Takenouchi-Ryu, purported to have been originated by Takenouchi Hisamori, a native of Sakushu, in the year of 1532. This branch taught Kogusoku, or the art of seizing, which is somewhat different from the pure art of Jujutsu.

The Takenouchi-Ryu may be regarded as the primal system for the teaching of arts similar to Jujutsu. Fukuno Schichiroemon of Temba originated a second system called the Kito-Ryu. This Ryu `appeared in the middle of the seventeenth century. Prominence of the "Art of Throwing" (Nage-waza) and "Form Practice (Kata) gave the Kito-Ryu great prestige and popularity. In close connection with this branch was a third branch called the Jikishin-Ryu, whose founder was Terada Kanemon, a native of Unsho, and the contemporary of Fukono. Both Fukuno and Terada lived about the middle of the seventeenth century in somewhat close relationship to each other. They established two separate systems of Jujutsu some years before the time of Chin Genpin. These two systems appear to be the oldest of all the varied systems of Jujutsu.

Inugami Nagakatsu of Omi founded the Kiushin-Ryu. The date of its founding is uncertain, and there are some reasons to believe that this branch was derived from the Kito-Ryu. Inugami Genpin, the grandson of the founder, attained such eminence through his skill at the Kiushin-Ryu that he came to be regarded as the founder of the school. The Sakiguchi-Ryu, Founded by Shinbukawa Bangoro, are two other well-known Ryu of Jujutsu. The Yoshin-Ryu, or the Miura-Ryu, and the Tenjin-Ryu were also prominent systems.

The Yoshin system, founded by Yoshin Miura, taught that many illnesses were the result of a disproportionate use of mind and body. Miura devised several Jujutsu methods involving "arresting devices". After a lengthy study with two of his disciples, he developed fifty-one arresting methods, His students, following his death, established systems of their own, further expanding his teachings.

The Tenjin-Shinyo-Ryu was founded by Matayemon Iso, a student of the Yoshin-Ryu. After several years of studying, Iso set out to tour the country and, at the same time, test his ability. Every where he traveled he competed with renowned masters in Jujutsu tournaments. His proficiency was such that he never lost a contest.

The branches of Jujutsu grew during the feudal period, particularly during the time of Iyemitsu, the third and ablest of the Tokugawa Shogun, under whose government feudalism was completely established in Japan. The art of Jujutsu continued in various provinces in Japan and today Jujutsu can be found in many forms throughout the world.

Jujutsu is not merely a combination of Karate, Judo and Aikido, but is actually the art from which Judo and Aikido were born. Many of the techniques and principles found in these arts, are also found in Jujutsu. Also, many of the striking techniques that are found in Karate, are also found in Jujutsu.

Types of techniques typical of Jujutsu include:

Nage Waza - throwing techniques

Kansetsu Waza - joint locking techniques

Atemi Waza - striking of the vital points

Shime Waza - strangulation techniques

Katame Waza - ground fighting techniques

Osae Waza - holding techniques

Ukemi Waza - falling techniques

Ate Waza - striking techniques

Geri Waza - kicking techniques

Uke Waza - blocking techniques

Goshinjutsu Waza - self-defense techniques

My bet would be Jujitsu

*bows respectfully*
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#183905 - 11/10/05 12:57 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Newbi]
Legend of the Hungry Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 221
Quote:

Whats so wrong with judo being sport? Everybody loves sports.
Still i dont know whats better for a begginer like me?




Judo is a sport, and thats what is great about it. It, like boxing and kickboxing can be practiced frequently without a high risk of serious injury. jujitsu is more arm locks and joint locks, that can cause serious injury if taken too far, so it would make it difficult to practice, full go.

i say judo. its easy and after a few weeks max, u should be doin randori which is great practice. I like judo its fun.

by the way, if u do throw somebody let say Ippon Seoi Nage, or even an Osoto-Gari, if u plant em hard enough u wont need joint locks to win.

so i vote Judo


Edited by Legend of the Hungry Wolf (11/10/05 01:14 AM)

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#183906 - 11/10/05 02:18 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Bakerman]
chakuy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 124
never look for a style or its rept. just look for the right instrouctor in the right Dojo.
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#183907 - 11/13/05 12:46 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: chakuy]
Aka_Ryu Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 35
Konnichiwa,
After training in Judo for 3 years now and upon taking my Shodan Ho grading in the martial art. I started to study Ju Jitsu. I becam a member of Ishin Ryu Ju Jisu, Under the instruction of Shodai Soke Kevin Pell.
I would advise depending on your personal Style of martial arts, if you prefer No nosense or Kata formed martial arts. Try tehm both. I prefer Ju Jitsu due to the no nonsense form of self defence

Try it and find out if you like it.
Domo Arigato Gozaimashita.
www.ishinryu.com


Edited by Aka_Ryu (11/13/05 01:04 PM)
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#183908 - 11/13/05 01:31 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Bakerman]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

ORIGINAL POSTER: Bakerman - 09/05/05 12:26 PM:
Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take?




Instead of continuing this thread as it has been 2 months, Bakerman, what did you decide on?

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#183909 - 11/15/05 07:44 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Bakerman]
SenseiMike Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/15/05
Posts: 7
Quote:

basically both use the same princables of fighting including throws, locks, and cholks. Judo is japanese, jujitsu is brazillian both i think are used as sports but i just dont know which one i should take???....

Jujitsu is japanese too actually, it's the parent art of judo.

Brazillian/gracie juijitsu is what you are referring too, Helio Gracie learned Judo from a traveling Japanese diplomat, and made some modifications to the art.
drop me a line someone...



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#183910 - 11/16/05 11:12 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: SenseiMike]
RobNus Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
wow that was a nice repeat of someone elses post....
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#183911 - 11/22/05 02:12 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Bakerman]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Judo. Although Juso dispenses with some of Jujitsu's more dangerous techniques, this enables practioners to go at each other full force. This kind of realistic experience is THE best thing a fighter can have.

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#183912 - 04/26/06 03:23 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
I will second that Leo san. Japanese Jujutsu, in its classical form is a very deadly art used on the battlefields sometimes agianst opponents armed with four foot long razor blades. Most systems used the H2H arts in addition to the weapons arts, as they were taught if one lost the weapon they were using or found himself without it. There are many old Ryu left if you can find a place that teaches the classical ryu. Be wary however, as many try to claim lineage to something that is not there. I understand that some Ryu that have been around for a while are in fact not from the battlefield and were invented by the founders who never were in battle. This does not make the style bad, as some have evolved into decent ways. just be cautious.
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#183913 - 04/28/06 06:49 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
gus Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 67
Loc: dixon calif.usa
Okay,here i go.everyone has an opinon.i started judo not knowing what to expect.judo chopsetc..as i went along withe training consepts the falling .the yealdingthe moves.judo isnot a sport.you learn to work with each other .give and take.the same goes for thestreet give and take.judo is made up of three cosepts.free play,(sparing)kata preaarainged techniques.practiceing the dangerous kicks and blows .safely.contest It is not sport so much as testing your self against a stranger.not sparing .i am not a champion by no means.but i am a better man in and out of the dojo for haveing studying and continueing kodokan Judo
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#183914 - 04/29/06 02:40 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: gus]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
? ? ?

Doesn't make sense to me.

Let me try and rephrase this;

You studied Kodokan Judo, and you're the better man than those who didn't, as you studied Kodokan judo. You are not the champion but you studied Kodokan judo, which makes you a better man in and out of the dojo. Thus, someone who didn't study Kodokan Judo (me) is not a better man in or out of the dojo. Freaky logics I got.

Judo consist of three phases, Sparring, Kata and Contest. It is not a sport but is used to test your strength against a stranger. . .

My English may not be good, but yours worse. If I misinterpreted, just write it out in some understandable English.

I think there's more to Judo than just 3 phases.

Gatame-waza = Grappling techniques
Nage-waza = Throwing techniques
Atemi-waza = Striking techniques
Manner-waza = Learn how to behave. Spiritual thing which isn't taught but naturally picked up from the Sensei.

Then there's Randori, Nage-no-kata, Shiai(tourney) and Goshinjutsu(self-defense) in which all the categories of techniques are used in.

Judo was developed and is a sport. How you use it determines if it's a sport or not. Me, I don't like using judo for entertainment purposes like sports and thus is very different from 'sport' judo.

-Taison out
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#183915 - 05/07/06 02:37 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Taison]
Rhodes Offline
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Registered: 05/07/06
Posts: 2
I'm a blue belt in Japanese Jujitsu, and I've been studying Brazilian Jujitsu for almost a year. Some of the information in this thread is not quite accurate, but rather than arguing various points I'll simply say the following:

Judo and Brazilian Jujitsu will give you a MUCH better workout than Japanese Jujitsu. If the only physical activity you do is the martial art itself, you'll be in far better shape after practicing Judo or BJJ.

Why? Because nearly every technique you will practice in Japanese Jujitsu is done from a static position. To do a hip throw, for example, you will calmly stand in front of your opponent, who is submissively awaiting being thrown. Once you learn how to take a fall and build some basic conditioning it's not terribly challenging physically. In my JJJ class there are many people who are overweight and not in very good shape after having practiced the art for years.

In contrast, in Brazilian Jujitsu, you train as you would if you were grappling with a an actual attacker. It's MUCH more physical. Your cardio will improve tremendously as a result, as will your overall physical fitness. In Judo they practice Randori, which is a type of "free sparing". This too is much more physical.

I believe that ones fitness level makes a huge difference in a real encounter. After a couple months of Brazilian Jujitsu I found my confidence level with regard to encountering an real attacker much higher then after three years of Japanese Jujitsu, simply because we are mimicking what a real live encounter would be like when a street fight goes to the ground. In my Japanese Jujitsu class it's all too controlled and predictable. In a street fight, nothing is predictable, so unless you train for that against someone who is not submissively accepting your technique you'll be woefully inadequate when the time comes.

That said, I still love Japanese Jujitsu and plan to continue in it, although, if Judo were available in my area I'd probably take it instead simply because they embrace sparing. People sometimes look down on Judo as an effective martial art, stating that it's a sport. I think the opposite is true. When you have to test yourself against someone who is trying to beat you, you become much stronger and more adept at dealing with a real encounter. The sport aspect of it is very underrated in my opinion, as a means to improve your abilities.

The other things I love about Brazilian Jujitsu is that they don't hand out belts unless you prove your deserve it by consistently beating people in your belt class. There is no timeline as to when you might advance. You have to earn it, and it's not easy. Also, BJJ is one of the few martial arts that practices without a gi, which I find makes it much more realistic with regard to a street encounter.

In my opinion, the best combination would be to learn Judo and Brazilian Jujitsu, with a little kick boxing thrown in. Judo will teach you throws, BJJ will teach you ground fighting, and Kick boxing will give you striking techniques. And all three will give you great physical fitness.

Let me also point out that in Mixed Martial Arts competitions, like UFC and Pride, you'll find people who come from Judo backgrounds and BJJ backgrounds, but rarely Japanese Jujitsu. Yoshida, for example, was an olympic Judo practitioner, and many, many fighters come from the world of BJJ. So the effectiveness of these martial arts has been tested at the highest levels.

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#183916 - 05/07/06 05:18 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Rhodes]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
My own experiences are similar. Important to remember however, that there are many, many schools of Traditional JJ. They are not all lacking in athleticism.

Some are however. For those that train in schools like that and are able, Judo is a wonderful experience that does not cause too much of a distraction from the Budo experience.

I think Wally Jay said a long time ago that "if your Judo is strong, then your jujitsu will be strong".
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#183917 - 05/08/06 05:29 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Fletch1]
Sensei Paul Hart Offline
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Registered: 12/05/03
Posts: 279
Loc: Lehigh Acres, Florida
The way it was taught to me, traditional Jujutsu that is, was when you began to work on new material, the opponent went with it. No resistance. As you built your skill, the opponent would also make it difficult to throw or lock him. This was in Taichi waza, as well as seiza waza. Ground fighting in our school did not come until much later and then it was met with resistance. It is bad to paint the whole picture of an art with the same color and brush. Sometimes, the art is much more bold and the stroke is different.

I really like Judo, personally, and would recommend it to someone wanting to get a good work out, or wanting to learn a more competition oriented style. But for combat, it does not stand with Jujutsu, but again, many different systems of Jujutsu exist, so that rule may not apply to all.
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#183918 - 05/09/06 04:40 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Sensei Paul Hart]
Fiddler Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 9
Loc: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
So who knows if Bakerman is still reading this but if you are then for what it's worth I agree with Rhodes, I would take Judo or BJJ rather than Japanese Jujitsu because they are much more physical and I also agree that physical fitness is important for sport and in all aspects of your life. If you are more interested in weapons and striking though, you might want to look at JJJ instead because Judo is almost exclusively throwing and grappling (including some chokes and locks for submissions) while BJJ focuses less on throwing, but more on a takedown to grappling position and then lots of submissions of all kinds, many that you don't find in Judo. Depending on the BJJ club you might do a good bit of strikinga and kicks related to your holdowns and takedowns too.

Re: Taison vs. Gus

Dude, just because you can't understand what somebody means doesn't mean that what they have said isn't valid, or that you can't learn from them. I took Gus to mean that as he has been taught, there are 3 aspects to Judo and that he has taken what he has learned there - give and take and respect- and has applied it to the street and other areas of his life with some success and feels he is a better man than he would otherwise be both in the Dojo and out of it than if he had not ever taken Judo. I would agree with that because I feel the same about myself. I think I have greatly benefitted and become a better person for having practised it for so long. Not better than YOU or Gus, just better than ME if I hadn't taken judo at all.

I'm kind of puzzled by the mention of dangerous kicks and blows but maybe wherever he is learning "Judo" the instructor has unfortunately seen fit to combine such things with Judo training and call it Judo. As we probably all know, Judoka can get really hornery about it if the art/sport is misrepresented so for the record, aside from Goshin-jitsu and some very high level black belt training Judo in no way trains in striking or kicking or anything like that!

F
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#183919 - 06/16/06 10:29 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Fiddler]
vegetta5 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 2
Loc: AR
I,ve been training in Japanese Jujutsu for 12 years, and it is very physical, yes ju-jutsu has competitions, and yes you can strike but in a controled manner. ju-jutsu has it all if you can find a school that teaches it the old way. My school teaches Stand up punches, kicks, blocks, throws, standing chokes arm locks,and all the ground work one would find in a BJJ school since it came from Judo and Judo came from Ju-jutsu. If anyone is interested in the Ju-justu competitions check out the usjujitsu.com it's the United States JU-Jitsu Federation, so check it out read the rules and check out the pics and then tell me JU Jutsu is not physical.

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#183920 - 06/16/06 10:42 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Fiddler]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
You talking to me?

Anyway, old thread. Dead. No need to continue. Now, let's get more training in. You guys talk to much. More training less talking.

*After everything has been said and done, more is said than actually done*.

-Taison out
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I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#183921 - 06/18/06 04:47 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: vegetta5]
adaca Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 95
Hi

Ok I just had a look at some vidios on the website you posted up.

I presume that was a knowledge of technique competition?



Another thing I would like to ask is can any one tell me the grading syllabus for BJJ?

Even for the first grade?

I have often visited different schools, had training session's and a roll with some of the members,(some were good) some schools supposedly BJJ but have a totlay different grading syllabus?


Thanks


Edited by adaca (06/18/06 04:52 AM)

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#183922 - 06/24/06 03:53 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: adaca]
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
I've never seen an official syllabus for BJJ. In the beginning you are taught the basics of positioning and a few submissions, and you get promoted based on your ability to apply that knowledge.

You will have to be able to tap out other white belts and at least be competitive with blue belts for your first promotion to blue. On the average I think you'll be a white belt for 2 years. Then it seems to be another 3-5 years for each belt after that.

The belts should be white, blue, purple, brown and black.

Bottom line on BJJ promotions...if you cant dominate and tap people, you can forget about promotions.

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#183923 - 06/29/06 04:09 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: BigRod]
Amadeu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 11
Loc: England, Kent
depends on the style of ju jitsu you wanna take, some forms of ju jitsu are for self defence and not competitive at all like hakuda ryu which involves no rules in fighting eye gouging, hair pulling, hitting in the places which hurt a lot lol hehehe is all aloud(obviusly in training we dont do eye gougding just a hard slap on the face, and no kicking in the groin even though I have been kicked there before, normaly a hard kick/punch/slap on the upper leg which still hurts and puts me down), but judo on the other hand is more of a sport rather than a martial art it can be a martial art but just depends on the eyes of the martial artist, on the other hand brasilian jiu jitsu and gracie jiu jitsu are very much competitive with lots of competitions I dont know where you live so it depends on the location as well but brasillian jiu jitsu is basicly traitional judo.
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#183924 - 07/07/06 04:01 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Amadeu]
dre9292 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 41
BJJ isn't like traditional judo.. judo is pretty much just getting your opponent to the floor. BJJ added upon traditional jiu jitsu with various techniques. And BJJ definetly isn't a derivative of judo.

Judo was made to be a safer version of jiu jitsu compromised of only throws.

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#183925 - 07/07/06 11:02 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: dre9292]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hi dre9292. I'm afraid you have your facts wrong, BJJ is in fact derived from Judo. Check this link for some info:

http://bjj.org/interviews/maeda.html
_________________________
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#183926 - 07/07/06 07:27 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: MattJ]
Lokkan-Do Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 1411
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Actually BJJ doesn't really have that many takedowns. Judo's specialty is in takedowns

The BJJ they teach in American may have takedowns because they mix it with Greco-Roman wrestling. In other parts of the world BJJ remains mostly a ground fighting specialty art with a major weakness in takedowns.

That's why it is better to cross train in both Judo and BJJ or Ju Jitsu.

Take care.

Lok

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#183927 - 07/07/06 07:33 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Lokkan-Do]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
OK.....?

I am not disputing that BJJ and Judo are different. I was only pointing out that BJJ is derived from Judo.
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#183928 - 07/07/06 11:28 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: MattJ]
Lokkan-Do Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 1411
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Ok...

I am not disputing that BJJ is derived from Judo in fact I agree very much with your point. BJJ is Ne Waza techniques from pre-war Japanese Judo. It resembles Japanese Ju Jitsu in pre-war days and was perserved in Brazil while the martial arts in Japan were modified due to political and moral reasons.

I just wanted to explain the difference anyways between post-war Judo, pre-war Judo, Ju Jitsu and BJJ.

Take care

Lok

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#183929 - 07/08/06 03:57 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: MattJ]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Yup, BJJ is derived from Judo and Judo from JuJutsu. Honestly I only see the "Ju" in Judo and JuJutsu, and especially emphasized in Judo.

BJJ has great groundwork, Judo - throws and takedowns, overall goodness, and JuJutsu (to me) is a good mixture with emphasis on both takedowns and ground techs.
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#183930 - 07/08/06 07:48 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: dre9292]
Amadeu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 11
Loc: England, Kent
no offence but you should get your facts right, BJJ is similar to TRADITIONAL judo in many many ways, its different to Ju Jitsu because in Ju jitsu perticulaly in some styles such as Hakuda ryu which is to my understanding the first set of Tominagi Ju jitsu in japan, have more standing techniques that BJJ, in JJ there are more kicks and punches as well as throws, locks, pressure points and groundwork.

Judo like all styles of mainland Japan Karate such as Shotokan are offshots of JU JITSU.
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club motto is "If it Hurts It Works"

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#183931 - 07/12/06 09:39 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: Amadeu]
dre9292 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 41
BJJ isnt similar to judo where is all the ground techniques in judo? Judo lacks ground techniques and the term used in japanese is nemaza i think..

in BJJ there is definetly no striking if your talking about jiu jitsu with striking your referring to very old school jiu jitsu that was used by the samurai. If your being taught judo with striking in it you definetly not learning just judo..
your teacher is probaly mixing it with some striking art since judo has no striking in it.

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#183932 - 07/12/06 09:47 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: IExcalibui2]
dre9292 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 41
Ju jitsu, jiu jitsu, ju jutsu call it what you want its preety much the same thing. Judo is derived from jiu jitsu the creator of judo jigoro kane considered jiu jitsu to be unconnected bag of tricks and made judo to connect some good stuff and make a safer version of the grappling art.

As for BJJ its old school jiu jitsu without the striking improved so smaller guys can beat the stronger guys. This adjustment in techniques occured because the creator Hélio Gracie was always small in size. and needed to make some changes to jiu jitsu if he wanted to stand a chance against stronger opponents.

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#183933 - 07/13/06 01:22 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: dre9292]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Quote:

BJJ isnt similar to judo where is all the ground techniques in judo? Judo lacks ground techniques

in BJJ there is definetly no striking




Judo indeed has ground techniques. When I was visiting a Judo school not far from where I train BJJ, almost half the class was grappling and the other half throwing. There are lots of chokes, armbars as well as "pins" you can use to win a Judo match so not sure where you trained in Judo.
BJJ was not origionally intended just for sport and there were strikes in it. It was "invented" more for self defense and less for sport as it is today. In some BJJ schools that teach self defense, they do teach strikes and defense of strikes.

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#183934 - 07/13/06 01:39 PM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: dre9292]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

BJJ isnt similar to judo where is all the ground techniques in judo? Judo lacks ground techniques and the term used in japanese is nemaza i think..

in BJJ there is definetly no striking if your talking about jiu jitsu with striking your referring to very old school jiu jitsu that was used by the samurai. If your being taught judo with striking in it you definetly not learning just judo..
your teacher is probaly mixing it with some striking art since judo has no striking in it.




Dre.....you need to do some research, my friend. You are way off base. As Glock said, Judo does indeed have a comprehensive groundfighting syllabus (newaza). It may or may not be emphasized depending on the instructor, but I have attended a Judo class which did emphasize that aspect.

Secondly, regarding striking in BJJ. Again, this depends on the instructor. If you have ever seen the Gracie Jujitsu basics videos, then you would know that BJJ does indeed have strikes and throws and techniques that do NOT end up on the ground.

Get your facts straight, please.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#183935 - 07/22/06 08:58 AM Re: Judo V.S Ju Jitsu. What should I take? [Re: MattJ]
MrSex4You Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/22/06
Posts: 2
Quote:

Quote:

BJJ isnt similar to judo where is all the ground techniques in judo? Judo lacks ground techniques and the term used in japanese is nemaza i think..

in BJJ there is definetly no striking if your talking about jiu jitsu with striking your referring to very old school jiu jitsu that was used by the samurai. If your being taught judo with striking in it you definetly not learning just judo..
your teacher is probaly mixing it with some striking art since judo has no striking in it.




Dre.....you need to do some research, my friend. You are way off base. As Glock said, Judo does indeed have a comprehensive groundfighting syllabus (newaza). It may or may not be emphasized depending on the instructor, but I have attended a Judo class which did emphasize that aspect.

Secondly, regarding striking in BJJ. Again, this depends on the instructor. If you have ever seen the Gracie Jujitsu basics videos, then you would know that BJJ does indeed have strikes and throws and techniques that do NOT end up on the ground.

Get your facts straight, please.




Yes Judo has a ground fighting system. Judo as a sport must put a whole lot of effort on throws since that is mostly where matches are won and lost.

BJJ traditionally focused alot on groundfighting and as BJJ, the ever evolving sport, this is where it's real strength is. BJJ matches begin standing and hence a solid foundation in throws even without any follow-up could win you the matches, just as long as you don't go to the ground. This however is not the realistic view of a match and hence in BJJ you have to focus both on taking down an opponent and in the very complex ground game.

The curriculum of more traditional schools of Judo and JuJitsu are mostly fixed and not so evolving as that of BJJ. That is how I see it. Of course it depends on the instructor. But if you have an instructor in BJJ that is still fighting alot of real tough matches then he will probably be somewhere between 1-500+ years ahead of more traditional fixed curriculum non-evolving styles. In Judo I just don't see the evolving of new techniques as much as I see the perfection of skills like strength, balance and timing for the techniques that you wish to pursue.

In BJJs favor, a very common training technique is almost an actual match, freestyle sparring. With a good instructor and training partner you will here develop flow, balance, timing and a very good sense for where your arms and legs should be at times, even if the "technique" of this has no real name.

Of course in BJJ and Judo you have a Gi that can hold more than a persons weight if pulled. How is this important? Well what do u want with your training? If you are looking for self-defence, maybe you want to train without a Gi. Although from the fights I've had with friends using normal street clothing, I don't see a problem in applying BJJ with normal clothes.

In BJJ, Judo and more traditional JuJutsu, you usually dont train any kind of striking. Check with your local school for details. Are you missing something? I'd say yes, but not so much. Mostly you are missing something if you want to fight someone that knows how to kick and punch and hold the distance. But if you are looking for self-defence, or looking for good training or something that you can really evolve within, then you can do without all the blows to your head.

And if you haven't gotten it so far. I am in favor of BJJ. And as a single reason, because of the way it looks at a fight and the way it is sparred. If you happen to land in a school that doesn't emphasize standing grappling enough (1 week per day or such) then this will be a weak point in your game and I would talk your instructor into changing this.

Judo has often a similar sparring but I just don't see all the same evolving techniques in the groundwork, and you can lose a match by certain throws, pretty lame as a sport for me. In BJJ you lose if you give up because of pain, or when time runs out you can lose on points. But there is no such thing as losing because you were thrown or because your back is into the mat (aka wrestling).

Certainly anything closer to NHB like shootfighting, shooto etc.. would as far as real fighting goes, be more of the real thing for a real fight. But then again, most people you would fight in a real fight probably arent so good at fighting, otherwise they wouldnt run around starting fights (or are you the one starting .

JuJutsu has a alot of joint manipulations, even against knifes and such etc.. This training is so versatile so I dont know where to start. Its even possible a traditional JuJutsu school would be very close to brazilian jujutsu. But why take a chance with JuJutsu when you have BJJ? If you want knife fighting take kali/escrima classes. You will learn all about sticks and knifes.

Only thing that would push me out of training at a particular BJJ school is if the instructors or the training partners are not as I want them. Aka. very bad, old, unfit, stinky, have serious health concerns like fungus, warts, impetigo, worms, etc.....

While I'm on it. From training bjj, muay thai, north shaolin kung fu, judo, shootfighting, jkd, kali/escrima.

The must fun was, BJJ and shootfighting. And I contribute that to the freestyle sparring and training. Muay Thai, Kung Fu and even JKD/kali/escrima training have been to a big part very stiff. Certainly sparring kung fu is very fun but you dont get to hit in the face or gouch someones eyes and those are the best techniques from kung fu as I see it. Also the long kicks for holding distance. And for escrima, sparring with real knives there were just too many injuries, every session someone bled almost to death and we had to call for ambulance. I dont know how other schools delt with this but the number of students just seemed to decline every time someone died.

So now I dont have any more random thoughts or bad jokes. I forgot the name of who asked originally but I hope that you get a little glimpse into how I see all the sports/styles.

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