nevermind.

interesting oldman, had I saw those pics near the beginning of the thread, I wouldn't have wasted everyone (except butterfly's) time by dragging TMA into a TKD question.
All the TKD forms described so far is regurgitated and hacked up Okinawan basic kata. Want to learn the applications? see a qualified TMA instructor in your area, good luck.

One of the pleasures and problems of my style is that we are firmly ensconced between Shotokan and Modern TKD. I can't honestly say I practice shotokan but I have a very difficult time allowing myself to say I practice TKD. It is probably most accurate to say I practice Korean Karate. I have spent the last month working with Oyatas group and am trying to get my head around their approach.

sorry for that outburst...thought we were talking postures, when actually the ramifications of doing that is going into the application. to try and guess what an application is of something added to a form from Korea via Japan via Okinawa all of a sudden seemed pointless to me. you have to ask yourselves studying Pinan derived forms, what were the intentions of the changes? to simply make it look different so TKD could call it it's own? if so, what practical value does the TKD version have that is not found in it's derived Okinawan version?
It is starting to look like Bruce is simply asking what the applications are of the added differences between versions of each Pinan. I looked up some of the form curriculum and sure enough TKD has modified versions of all Pinans and all three Naihanchi and who knows what else, each with added 'postures' in-between movements that I semi-recognized... once I realized this I concluded that I can't be of help...sorry. TKD based on Shotokan, Shotokan based on Shorin-Ryu...I kindof see that now.

Am I right to say that is related to "Heian Godan", "Pinan Godan"?

Whoops---- I think we may have slipped sideways.

Originally my question had to do with resources that might speak to the nature of the postures I was interested in knowing that the Japanese and Okinawan kata may have actually not had the postures at all. had the Japanese and Okinawan traditions had these postures and used them in the sequences as seen in TKD I would have gladly fallen back on Bishop or McCarthy for insights. As this was not the case I am stuck to find equivalent quality resources from a Korean point of view. At best they simply identify the moves in the form and make guess-timates on the most obvious analysis. I can do THAT much for myself, yes?

As far as the Diamond Posture, the sword practitioner in me tends to see the withdrawl of the foot as an evasion which regularly transforms into a sidekick. In sword we see raising the foot as either an evasion or a sometime charging motion where the raised foot is stamped forward in an attempt to add power to a weapon technique. Does any of this ring any bells?

BTW: Its also good to remember that I have no special investment in the Pinan sequence of forms. Its was simply the most basic form across all three cultures that held a few of the postures I was interested in. FWIW.

BTW#2: I am editing my post to say that the "evolution" of the forms that KITAMA points out is also one of the arguments I use against mixing and matching arts. The kata, for instance, that we are discussing as represented by the Okinawan arts took one approach to S-D while the modifications that Funakoshi and his son made to the arts was for a singularly non-S-D reason. Move the kata to TKD and sprinkle liberally with kicks and I think we run the risk of totally screwing-up the original intent of the forms. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Just how comparable are the TKD/TSD forms to karate?

I have seen that main style of TKD has very similar forms, and another main style does not.

I've always assuemd that TSD has forms ala Shorin Ryu.

More kicking? More chance to trip and lock people out, that's my initial reaction!

The "mountain" posture looks like a sweep/throw to me, like the "crane" stance.

Be glad to know of the use of the kata "Jitte" - mostly ugly and it seems very basic comapred to other forms. Maybe it's all in the turns?

Aaahh, cheers Kin I was looking at the entire squence which starts on the forth row.

Without knowing the whole sequence it is pratically impossible to figure out what the application of a specific posture is, bit like trying to figure out what the original sentence was when you've only got one word of it. However like language kata/forms do have some universal "grammer" to help us figure out the context.

For example in this posture the practioner has dropped into a horse stance, which could indicate that they are disrupting an opponants balance. The fact the feet on turned outwards pretty much rules out it being an attack from the front for two reasons;

- firstly, you are exposing all of the points of the inner leg and other vital points.
-secondly, turning the feet outwards makes your posture alot weaker from force from the front.

So I'd assume that it is defending against rear or at the very least from the side or the result of a transfer of weight.

In terms of the hands, I doubt that they are a throw, maybe the start of a throw, but definately not the end of it. I've seen applications where the movement was done using both hands at the same time merely to indicate that the strike can be done off of either side. Due to the fact that the hands are high and the stance is low, I doubt whether this is a throw.

Sorry its not very concise, but thats my $0.2 worth. HTH

Gav

from what Oldman drew (hands down and crossed in front) and what Gavin is hinting at...take a look at defenses against a bear-hug from behind (acting quickly and prior to the aggressor lifting you up).

worth a try...

Kin,

For the Diamond Pose....I dug up a coppy of the form...If this is the one Bruce was talking about.
http://www.jenningscc.com/TaeKwonDo/Movies/MOV/wtf_10_keumgang.mov