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#183649 - 09/07/05 03:40 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
Mark Hill Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
How many TKD/TSD guys have applied the concepts of Mc Carthy, Athernaby et al.,?

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#183650 - 09/07/05 09:27 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Mark Hill]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
It's an area of interest to me. I'm eager to hear Bruces point of view.

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#183651 - 09/07/05 10:19 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
so you are saying this is in a TKD form which was most likely based on Pinan godan? the extra posture could be anything...including simple mis-interpretation of the original form into fighting more than one opponent for instance.

If you want to design practicle meaning from it, after the 'half-mountain'-which could be a block/grab-pull-strike to groin...see if you can figure out a way to throw the opponent from the hunched over postion they will be in after getting hit in the beans.

your mountain-man position could symbolize that throw.

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#183652 - 09/07/05 11:05 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Kintama]
glad2bhere Offline
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Registered: 08/11/00
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I went through the possible application of the posture as a counter to a full-nelson with mixed results.

Right now I am sticking with the idea that the initial thrust down and the following retraction could be a parry/bock for a kick or polearm. With some adjustment, the turm with the upraised arms could be a transfer of the parried weapon or leg from one arm to the other and so turn the attacking person to expose his back. The SECOND thrust would be an attack to any of a number of vulnerable areas revealed by the turned back. There was also a vague thought that having grabbed the end of the polearm in the parry, a turn with a strike in that same up-raised position could feasibly disarm some polearm users not expecting such a move such the vector of the strike would work against the thumb of the polearm person. Just a couple of thoughts.

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (09/07/05 11:09 AM)

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#183653 - 09/07/05 12:20 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I am curious about the residual techniques that appear in some of the older TKD/TSD kata. As many, I think, who are familiar with TKD, I have never personally encountered bukai in the kata as they were explained to me.

Basically, forms were sold part and parcel as just pinned together techniques that were more for familiarizing the student with proper technique and movement. Thus, these thing were done as an ancillary part of training and not connected with any technical application...in other words nothing derived from the forms.

How you would deconstruct Korean forms with their additions and changes to accomodate kicks would be interesting.

Bruce, I am interested in the other three postures that you had noted in your first post.

-B

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#183654 - 09/07/05 12:38 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Sorry I've only just read this thread. Is this application are we talking about for the moves in the fifth row of the kururnfa kata that Kintama posted the pick of? If it is Bruce's applications is confusing the living hell out of me. If we not, then I'm confusing the living hell out of me! Put me out of my misery either way please!!!!
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#183655 - 09/07/05 01:52 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Gavin]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
no, just the posture in row 5 first frame in the pic of that kata is the posture which was first described. what happens before and after that posture in the TKD kata is different, so the application would differ.

my guess is that its a throw...but I haven't worked TKD kata.

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#183656 - 09/07/05 03:17 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: butterfly]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Put together in a single post, the postures I am currently delving into are

1.) Mountain Posture

2.) Half-Mountain Posture

3.) Kumkang ("Diamond") posture (not altogehter unlike a one-legged stance.)

4.) Scissors Block: One arm up and one down; elbows close to the torso. (Think of the opening sequence to Pinan 3.)

5.) Two Handed Punch: Hands in front or high at the forehead. Both simulataneously circle in a parry and drive forward accompanied by forward step or stutter-step.

There is also the recurring high-block and kick followed by a double punch. I mention this sequence only because I see it repeatedly in various forms but the hand work is always switching around, once with hands closed, once with hands open, once with one hand opened and one hand closed. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (09/07/05 03:19 PM)

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#183657 - 09/07/05 04:08 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Bruce,

Let me preface first and say that TKD was a long time ago for me and the karate I currently study doesn't have the traditional Japanese/Okinawan take on bunkai. So my take on these are unqualified at best, but here goes a try for at least the Kumkang (Kuemkang) "Diamond" pose.

This "diamond" pose, if I understand correctly, is the one with one leg slightly raised and the slow use of the uppper block with and extended strike of the other hand. If I am wrong please correct me. To me this could be read two ways, the latter of which is more reasonable but seems to be missing a component which I will explain afterwards.

The former use would seem to be a raised leg block and arbitrarily taught as a balancing exercise while practicing the block.

For me, the better explanation, with some slight modification to the performance of this posture, is to use the hand movement to block and more importantly pull the opponents strking hand upward and toward you. The lifted leg is not only a block in this case, but would be used as a low snapping side kick aimed at the knee of the opponent being pulled into the technique.

What's missing is the low side kick and could be explained away by the general dismissal of low kicks in TKD and thus non utility of this technique.

If you lower the performer's blocking arm slightly and use it as a grab and pull, drop the body weight of the performer out of a rigid stance, the other striking arm now used as a quick back knuckle to the groin or knife edge hand to the floating ribs, and then use the lifted, blocking leg as a snapping kick to the knee of your opponent, I think you have a better case for utility of the motion.

Regards,

-B

P.S.

With regards to what I posted earlier another way to view this posture is to pull the opponent into a floating rib strike sans the low side kick and just stepping in back of the opponent's closest leg...readying for a sweep after the strike.


Edited by butterfly (09/07/05 05:40 PM)

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#183658 - 09/07/05 04:25 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
I hope this might help facilitate discussion.

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