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#183639 - 09/04/05 02:47 PM Taekwondo Postures
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
I'm sure by now that most people appreciate that Korean Taekwondo owes the greater portion of its material to Japanese Karate. No small part of this influences can be noted in the various postures seen in the Korean hyung or forms.

However there remain five postures which have found their way into the Hapkido hyung that we do taht have come from Karate by way of TKD and I have yet to understand their purpose. Based on the body position I suppose one could make a guess-timate about the applications of these postures and others. However, the purpose of my post is not try to identify an intention for every odd posture in KMA. Rather I am very insterested in running down the sources and purposes for these five particular postures and wonder how I might use this venue to begin to talk about this. Where to start? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (09/04/05 02:49 PM)

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#183640 - 09/04/05 11:49 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Glad,

Can you describe these postures to me? Earlier in my martial arts life when I studied TKD I had practiced with one Hapkido BB.

Later, I practiced with one 2nd degree BB, one 3rd degree and one 4th degree BB in Hapkido, but only in so far as they were training in Judo and in Karate when I practiced with them. I do not know specifically what particular stances or postures you are asking about. Thank you.

-B

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#183641 - 09/05/05 12:50 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
picures are worth lotsa words. If you can give some search criteria I'd be happy to try and find pics.
- names of forms in which they appear.
- similar position/posture names.
- stance/foot position.
- arm/hand position.

best guess: you don't mean these postures do you?
http://www24.brinkster.com/thefringe/gicheon/gc2.htm

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#183642 - 09/05/05 02:03 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Kintama]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
I had originally tried to find pictures on line to cite but did not have any luck. Let me try a brief description for the first one and see if it is sufficient to get this started.

The first posture of interest is called "mountain posture". To my mind this may come from the fact that the person who assumes this posture seems to form the Chinese character for "mountain" (J. "yama"). Imagine a man standing at a robbery right after someone says, "hands up!" except that the hands are closed, not open. Each time I have seen this posture in a Korean form it is associated with a crossing of the ankles or legs and a 180 degree term is executed.

At the risk of pushing too much information, the second posture is called "half mountain". Imagine a person in a back stance with one fist elevated overhead and to the rear and the forward hand blocking down and to the front.

Can we start with these two postures?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#183643 - 09/05/05 02:37 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
In form "Toi-Gye Hyung"
Quote:

A 'mountain block' is a block in which both arms are doing a forearm block. The upper arms are straight out to the left and right of the body, parallel to the floor. The forearms are straight up and down, perpindicular to the floor. The entire arm, though is in the same plane as the body. This is sometimes referred to as a "W"-shaped block. It is called a "mountain block" because it looks (physically) like the Chinese (and Korean and Japanese) character for mountain. (山)



source: http://paperwindow.com/tkd/itf/07_toi-gye.htm

The only thing I have to relate to this posture is in kata that I've worked on...
Goju kata Kururunfa, has a similar posture,
http://kiel-karate.de/Kata/Kururunfa.gif
take a look at 5th row, first frame.
or in motion:
http://www.gojuryu.neu.edu/images/kata/kururunfakata.gif

for application, see this excellent write-up (the application for this posture in kururunfa is in here, near the end of the article)
"This throw is actually described in Mabuni and Nakasoni's 1938 Karatedo Nyumon, page 208. It is an application against a full nelson hold from behind."
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=77

hope that helps...

p.s. half-mountain vs. half-nelson?


Edited by Kintama (09/05/05 02:43 PM)

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#183644 - 09/05/05 10:20 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Kintama]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Kintama,

Though, I wasn't the starter of this thread, I was curious how someone would explain these postures. Yes, the fifth row, first frame is the Mountain Man block. This speaks heavily to the idea of transplanted motions in kata without the requisite understanding of the applications.

When I studied TKD years ago, the higher level Poomse/Hyung (Kata) had these postures in them as well...the stupidest explanation for them was given to me, since evaluation of the bunkai was non-existent as expressed in my class and made me question kata training that much more. The explanataion was that this was a static pose of a double high block either with two punches, or two kicks, coming from two opponents 180 degrees from each other. Junk, as far as explantions are concerned.

Your copied drawings made me readily appreciate the bunkai, if nothing else. As far as the motion which entails the block and strike to throw...this is good as well and very reminiscent of the Judo training that I had received where you were always taught to lift the elbow in this manner for correct throwing. Interesting!

-B

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#183645 - 09/05/05 11:36 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: butterfly]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
lol, two people attacking at exactly the same time.
If that were the case then the best thing to do would be to simply step backwards and let them hit each other!
I've never seen any believable bunkai which interpreted more than one opponent. you can only fight/escape one person at a time. The idea is to take one out as quickly as possible (side note: which would suggest, waiting for someone to tap out is not a good idea for more than one opponent.)
From what I've seen, any application that involves symetrical arm movement is usually an escape from a single opponent-double arm hold (choke, grab, lock from front or behind, etc).

TKD is not the only Art that has people which get it wrong sometimes...
http://www.sportmultimedia.com/karatedoc/3profs.gif
http://www.hapkido.org.nz/images/shane_double.jpg
http://www.scjma.com/images/Control.jpg
http://www.hongluck.org/images/self-defense-training-pic1.gif

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#183646 - 09/06/05 09:39 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Kintama]
Castell Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/02/05
Posts: 3
The technique mentioned from Toi-gye tul (hyong) has been tought to me as "Annun so Bakkat palmok san makgi" And is in the pattern performed with a Stomping motion.
As application goes, this is a block against an attack, either in the form of a kick or strike. The hand not occupied with blocking is meant as the "return action"
return action in the same matter that when you perform i.e. a right hand punch, you pull your left back to you belt in response.
_________________________
Castell. 2. degree, NTN. ITF, Norway

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#183647 - 09/06/05 05:07 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Castell]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
chambering? can't visualize what you are saying and what does the stomping mean?

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#183648 - 09/06/05 10:57 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: butterfly]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Okay--- a little further digging. I teased out a single basic form that would take me across a range of arts and time frames. In this case its Pyung Ahn (aka J. Heian; aka O. Pinan), the 5th of that series.

As performed in TKD and TSD (See: Kang Uk Lee) there is a sequence at the end of the hyung following the jump in which the practitioner backsteps into a Half-mountain stance, thrusts forward and again retracts into the Half-Mtn stance. This same sequence is seen in the Japanese version and in the Okinawan version. However, in the Japanese and Okinawan version there is a simple turn and a juxtapose of the hands which bring the person from left Half-Mtn to Right Half-Mtn where the sequence is then repeated. Only in the Korean versions does the person shift from Half-Mtn to Mountain Posture, then turn, go directly into the thrust and retract into a Half-Mtn stance.

Since the J and O versions do not use the move there is no help with analyzing this movement from where they are concerned. The Korean version holds with the previously mentioned interpretation (simultaneous, double block) which is admittedly pretty lame.

For myself I am left to ponder why the Koreans would see fit to add a posture to someone elses form?

I do have a possible theory, but wanted to wait until other people had a chance to comment. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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