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#183639 - 09/04/05 02:47 PM Taekwondo Postures
glad2bhere Offline
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I'm sure by now that most people appreciate that Korean Taekwondo owes the greater portion of its material to Japanese Karate. No small part of this influences can be noted in the various postures seen in the Korean hyung or forms.

However there remain five postures which have found their way into the Hapkido hyung that we do taht have come from Karate by way of TKD and I have yet to understand their purpose. Based on the body position I suppose one could make a guess-timate about the applications of these postures and others. However, the purpose of my post is not try to identify an intention for every odd posture in KMA. Rather I am very insterested in running down the sources and purposes for these five particular postures and wonder how I might use this venue to begin to talk about this. Where to start? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (09/04/05 02:49 PM)

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#183640 - 09/04/05 11:49 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
butterfly Offline
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Glad,

Can you describe these postures to me? Earlier in my martial arts life when I studied TKD I had practiced with one Hapkido BB.

Later, I practiced with one 2nd degree BB, one 3rd degree and one 4th degree BB in Hapkido, but only in so far as they were training in Judo and in Karate when I practiced with them. I do not know specifically what particular stances or postures you are asking about. Thank you.

-B

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#183641 - 09/05/05 12:50 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
Kintama Offline
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picures are worth lotsa words. If you can give some search criteria I'd be happy to try and find pics.
- names of forms in which they appear.
- similar position/posture names.
- stance/foot position.
- arm/hand position.

best guess: you don't mean these postures do you?
http://www24.brinkster.com/thefringe/gicheon/gc2.htm

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#183642 - 09/05/05 02:03 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Kintama]
glad2bhere Offline
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I had originally tried to find pictures on line to cite but did not have any luck. Let me try a brief description for the first one and see if it is sufficient to get this started.

The first posture of interest is called "mountain posture". To my mind this may come from the fact that the person who assumes this posture seems to form the Chinese character for "mountain" (J. "yama"). Imagine a man standing at a robbery right after someone says, "hands up!" except that the hands are closed, not open. Each time I have seen this posture in a Korean form it is associated with a crossing of the ankles or legs and a 180 degree term is executed.

At the risk of pushing too much information, the second posture is called "half mountain". Imagine a person in a back stance with one fist elevated overhead and to the rear and the forward hand blocking down and to the front.

Can we start with these two postures?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#183643 - 09/05/05 02:37 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
Kintama Offline
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In form "Toi-Gye Hyung"
Quote:

A 'mountain block' is a block in which both arms are doing a forearm block. The upper arms are straight out to the left and right of the body, parallel to the floor. The forearms are straight up and down, perpindicular to the floor. The entire arm, though is in the same plane as the body. This is sometimes referred to as a "W"-shaped block. It is called a "mountain block" because it looks (physically) like the Chinese (and Korean and Japanese) character for mountain. (山)



source: http://paperwindow.com/tkd/itf/07_toi-gye.htm

The only thing I have to relate to this posture is in kata that I've worked on...
Goju kata Kururunfa, has a similar posture,
http://kiel-karate.de/Kata/Kururunfa.gif
take a look at 5th row, first frame.
or in motion:
http://www.gojuryu.neu.edu/images/kata/kururunfakata.gif

for application, see this excellent write-up (the application for this posture in kururunfa is in here, near the end of the article)
"This throw is actually described in Mabuni and Nakasoni's 1938 Karatedo Nyumon, page 208. It is an application against a full nelson hold from behind."
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=77

hope that helps...

p.s. half-mountain vs. half-nelson?


Edited by Kintama (09/05/05 02:43 PM)

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#183644 - 09/05/05 10:20 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Kintama]
butterfly Offline
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Kintama,

Though, I wasn't the starter of this thread, I was curious how someone would explain these postures. Yes, the fifth row, first frame is the Mountain Man block. This speaks heavily to the idea of transplanted motions in kata without the requisite understanding of the applications.

When I studied TKD years ago, the higher level Poomse/Hyung (Kata) had these postures in them as well...the stupidest explanation for them was given to me, since evaluation of the bunkai was non-existent as expressed in my class and made me question kata training that much more. The explanataion was that this was a static pose of a double high block either with two punches, or two kicks, coming from two opponents 180 degrees from each other. Junk, as far as explantions are concerned.

Your copied drawings made me readily appreciate the bunkai, if nothing else. As far as the motion which entails the block and strike to throw...this is good as well and very reminiscent of the Judo training that I had received where you were always taught to lift the elbow in this manner for correct throwing. Interesting!

-B

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#183645 - 09/05/05 11:36 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: butterfly]
Kintama Offline
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lol, two people attacking at exactly the same time.
If that were the case then the best thing to do would be to simply step backwards and let them hit each other!
I've never seen any believable bunkai which interpreted more than one opponent. you can only fight/escape one person at a time. The idea is to take one out as quickly as possible (side note: which would suggest, waiting for someone to tap out is not a good idea for more than one opponent.)
From what I've seen, any application that involves symetrical arm movement is usually an escape from a single opponent-double arm hold (choke, grab, lock from front or behind, etc).

TKD is not the only Art that has people which get it wrong sometimes...
http://www.sportmultimedia.com/karatedoc/3profs.gif
http://www.hapkido.org.nz/images/shane_double.jpg
http://www.scjma.com/images/Control.jpg
http://www.hongluck.org/images/self-defense-training-pic1.gif

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#183646 - 09/06/05 09:39 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Kintama]
Castell Offline
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The technique mentioned from Toi-gye tul (hyong) has been tought to me as "Annun so Bakkat palmok san makgi" And is in the pattern performed with a Stomping motion.
As application goes, this is a block against an attack, either in the form of a kick or strike. The hand not occupied with blocking is meant as the "return action"
return action in the same matter that when you perform i.e. a right hand punch, you pull your left back to you belt in response.
_________________________
Castell. 2. degree, NTN. ITF, Norway

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#183647 - 09/06/05 05:07 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Castell]
Kintama Offline
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chambering? can't visualize what you are saying and what does the stomping mean?

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#183648 - 09/06/05 10:57 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: butterfly]
glad2bhere Offline
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Okay--- a little further digging. I teased out a single basic form that would take me across a range of arts and time frames. In this case its Pyung Ahn (aka J. Heian; aka O. Pinan), the 5th of that series.

As performed in TKD and TSD (See: Kang Uk Lee) there is a sequence at the end of the hyung following the jump in which the practitioner backsteps into a Half-mountain stance, thrusts forward and again retracts into the Half-Mtn stance. This same sequence is seen in the Japanese version and in the Okinawan version. However, in the Japanese and Okinawan version there is a simple turn and a juxtapose of the hands which bring the person from left Half-Mtn to Right Half-Mtn where the sequence is then repeated. Only in the Korean versions does the person shift from Half-Mtn to Mountain Posture, then turn, go directly into the thrust and retract into a Half-Mtn stance.

Since the J and O versions do not use the move there is no help with analyzing this movement from where they are concerned. The Korean version holds with the previously mentioned interpretation (simultaneous, double block) which is admittedly pretty lame.

For myself I am left to ponder why the Koreans would see fit to add a posture to someone elses form?

I do have a possible theory, but wanted to wait until other people had a chance to comment. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#183649 - 09/07/05 03:40 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
Mark Hill Offline
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How many TKD/TSD guys have applied the concepts of Mc Carthy, Athernaby et al.,?

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#183650 - 09/07/05 09:27 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Mark Hill]
oldman Offline
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It's an area of interest to me. I'm eager to hear Bruces point of view.

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#183651 - 09/07/05 10:19 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
Kintama Offline
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so you are saying this is in a TKD form which was most likely based on Pinan godan? the extra posture could be anything...including simple mis-interpretation of the original form into fighting more than one opponent for instance.

If you want to design practicle meaning from it, after the 'half-mountain'-which could be a block/grab-pull-strike to groin...see if you can figure out a way to throw the opponent from the hunched over postion they will be in after getting hit in the beans.

your mountain-man position could symbolize that throw.

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#183652 - 09/07/05 11:05 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Kintama]
glad2bhere Offline
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I went through the possible application of the posture as a counter to a full-nelson with mixed results.

Right now I am sticking with the idea that the initial thrust down and the following retraction could be a parry/bock for a kick or polearm. With some adjustment, the turm with the upraised arms could be a transfer of the parried weapon or leg from one arm to the other and so turn the attacking person to expose his back. The SECOND thrust would be an attack to any of a number of vulnerable areas revealed by the turned back. There was also a vague thought that having grabbed the end of the polearm in the parry, a turn with a strike in that same up-raised position could feasibly disarm some polearm users not expecting such a move such the vector of the strike would work against the thumb of the polearm person. Just a couple of thoughts.

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (09/07/05 11:09 AM)

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#183653 - 09/07/05 12:20 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
butterfly Offline
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I am curious about the residual techniques that appear in some of the older TKD/TSD kata. As many, I think, who are familiar with TKD, I have never personally encountered bukai in the kata as they were explained to me.

Basically, forms were sold part and parcel as just pinned together techniques that were more for familiarizing the student with proper technique and movement. Thus, these thing were done as an ancillary part of training and not connected with any technical application...in other words nothing derived from the forms.

How you would deconstruct Korean forms with their additions and changes to accomodate kicks would be interesting.

Bruce, I am interested in the other three postures that you had noted in your first post.

-B

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#183654 - 09/07/05 12:38 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
Gavin Offline
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Sorry I've only just read this thread. Is this application are we talking about for the moves in the fifth row of the kururnfa kata that Kintama posted the pick of? If it is Bruce's applications is confusing the living hell out of me. If we not, then I'm confusing the living hell out of me! Put me out of my misery either way please!!!!
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#183655 - 09/07/05 01:52 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Gavin]
Kintama Offline
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no, just the posture in row 5 first frame in the pic of that kata is the posture which was first described. what happens before and after that posture in the TKD kata is different, so the application would differ.

my guess is that its a throw...but I haven't worked TKD kata.

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#183656 - 09/07/05 03:17 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: butterfly]
glad2bhere Offline
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Put together in a single post, the postures I am currently delving into are

1.) Mountain Posture

2.) Half-Mountain Posture

3.) Kumkang ("Diamond") posture (not altogehter unlike a one-legged stance.)

4.) Scissors Block: One arm up and one down; elbows close to the torso. (Think of the opening sequence to Pinan 3.)

5.) Two Handed Punch: Hands in front or high at the forehead. Both simulataneously circle in a parry and drive forward accompanied by forward step or stutter-step.

There is also the recurring high-block and kick followed by a double punch. I mention this sequence only because I see it repeatedly in various forms but the hand work is always switching around, once with hands closed, once with hands open, once with one hand opened and one hand closed. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (09/07/05 03:19 PM)

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#183657 - 09/07/05 04:08 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
butterfly Offline
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Bruce,

Let me preface first and say that TKD was a long time ago for me and the karate I currently study doesn't have the traditional Japanese/Okinawan take on bunkai. So my take on these are unqualified at best, but here goes a try for at least the Kumkang (Kuemkang) "Diamond" pose.

This "diamond" pose, if I understand correctly, is the one with one leg slightly raised and the slow use of the uppper block with and extended strike of the other hand. If I am wrong please correct me. To me this could be read two ways, the latter of which is more reasonable but seems to be missing a component which I will explain afterwards.

The former use would seem to be a raised leg block and arbitrarily taught as a balancing exercise while practicing the block.

For me, the better explanation, with some slight modification to the performance of this posture, is to use the hand movement to block and more importantly pull the opponents strking hand upward and toward you. The lifted leg is not only a block in this case, but would be used as a low snapping side kick aimed at the knee of the opponent being pulled into the technique.

What's missing is the low side kick and could be explained away by the general dismissal of low kicks in TKD and thus non utility of this technique.

If you lower the performer's blocking arm slightly and use it as a grab and pull, drop the body weight of the performer out of a rigid stance, the other striking arm now used as a quick back knuckle to the groin or knife edge hand to the floating ribs, and then use the lifted, blocking leg as a snapping kick to the knee of your opponent, I think you have a better case for utility of the motion.

Regards,

-B

P.S.

With regards to what I posted earlier another way to view this posture is to pull the opponent into a floating rib strike sans the low side kick and just stepping in back of the opponent's closest leg...readying for a sweep after the strike.


Edited by butterfly (09/07/05 05:40 PM)

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#183658 - 09/07/05 04:25 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
oldman Offline
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I hope this might help facilitate discussion.

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

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#183659 - 09/07/05 04:58 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: oldman]
oldman Offline
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nevermind.

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#183660 - 09/07/05 05:01 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: oldman]
Kintama Offline
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interesting oldman, had I saw those pics near the beginning of the thread, I wouldn't have wasted everyone (except butterfly's) time by dragging TMA into a TKD question.
All the TKD forms described so far is regurgitated and hacked up Okinawan basic kata. Want to learn the applications? see a qualified TMA instructor in your area, good luck.

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#183661 - 09/07/05 05:11 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Kintama]
oldman Offline
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One of the pleasures and problems of my style is that we are firmly ensconced between Shotokan and Modern TKD. I can't honestly say I practice shotokan but I have a very difficult time allowing myself to say I practice TKD. It is probably most accurate to say I practice Korean Karate. I have spent the last month working with Oyatas group and am trying to get my head around their approach.

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#183662 - 09/07/05 06:26 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: oldman]
Kintama Offline
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sorry for that outburst...thought we were talking postures, when actually the ramifications of doing that is going into the application. to try and guess what an application is of something added to a form from Korea via Japan via Okinawa all of a sudden seemed pointless to me. you have to ask yourselves studying Pinan derived forms, what were the intentions of the changes? to simply make it look different so TKD could call it it's own? if so, what practical value does the TKD version have that is not found in it's derived Okinawan version?
It is starting to look like Bruce is simply asking what the applications are of the added differences between versions of each Pinan. I looked up some of the form curriculum and sure enough TKD has modified versions of all Pinans and all three Naihanchi and who knows what else, each with added 'postures' in-between movements that I semi-recognized... once I realized this I concluded that I can't be of help...sorry. TKD based on Shotokan, Shotokan based on Shorin-Ryu...I kindof see that now.

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#183663 - 09/07/05 09:35 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: oldman]
Mark Hill Offline
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Am I right to say that is related to "Heian Godan", "Pinan Godan"?

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#183664 - 09/07/05 09:57 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Mark Hill]
glad2bhere Offline
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Whoops---- I think we may have slipped sideways.

Originally my question had to do with resources that might speak to the nature of the postures I was interested in knowing that the Japanese and Okinawan kata may have actually not had the postures at all. had the Japanese and Okinawan traditions had these postures and used them in the sequences as seen in TKD I would have gladly fallen back on Bishop or McCarthy for insights. As this was not the case I am stuck to find equivalent quality resources from a Korean point of view. At best they simply identify the moves in the form and make guess-timates on the most obvious analysis. I can do THAT much for myself, yes?

As far as the Diamond Posture, the sword practitioner in me tends to see the withdrawl of the foot as an evasion which regularly transforms into a sidekick. In sword we see raising the foot as either an evasion or a sometime charging motion where the raised foot is stamped forward in an attempt to add power to a weapon technique. Does any of this ring any bells?

BTW: Its also good to remember that I have no special investment in the Pinan sequence of forms. Its was simply the most basic form across all three cultures that held a few of the postures I was interested in. FWIW.

BTW#2: I am editing my post to say that the "evolution" of the forms that KITAMA points out is also one of the arguments I use against mixing and matching arts. The kata, for instance, that we are discussing as represented by the Okinawan arts took one approach to S-D while the modifications that Funakoshi and his son made to the arts was for a singularly non-S-D reason. Move the kata to TKD and sprinkle liberally with kicks and I think we run the risk of totally screwing-up the original intent of the forms. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (09/07/05 10:08 PM)

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#183665 - 09/08/05 02:02 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
Mark Hill Offline
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Just how comparable are the TKD/TSD forms to karate?

I have seen that main style of TKD has very similar forms, and another main style does not.

I've always assuemd that TSD has forms ala Shorin Ryu.

More kicking? More chance to trip and lock people out, that's my initial reaction!

The "mountain" posture looks like a sweep/throw to me, like the "crane" stance.

Be glad to know of the use of the kata "Jitte" - mostly ugly and it seems very basic comapred to other forms. Maybe it's all in the turns?

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#183666 - 09/08/05 06:18 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Kintama]
Gavin Offline
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Aaahh, cheers Kin I was looking at the entire squence which starts on the forth row.

Without knowing the whole sequence it is pratically impossible to figure out what the application of a specific posture is, bit like trying to figure out what the original sentence was when you've only got one word of it. However like language kata/forms do have some universal "grammer" to help us figure out the context.

For example in this posture the practioner has dropped into a horse stance, which could indicate that they are disrupting an opponants balance. The fact the feet on turned outwards pretty much rules out it being an attack from the front for two reasons;

- firstly, you are exposing all of the points of the inner leg and other vital points.
-secondly, turning the feet outwards makes your posture alot weaker from force from the front.

So I'd assume that it is defending against rear or at the very least from the side or the result of a transfer of weight.

In terms of the hands, I doubt that they are a throw, maybe the start of a throw, but definately not the end of it. I've seen applications where the movement was done using both hands at the same time merely to indicate that the strike can be done off of either side. Due to the fact that the hands are high and the stance is low, I doubt whether this is a throw.

Sorry its not very concise, but thats my $0.2 worth. HTH

Gav
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#183667 - 09/08/05 09:39 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: glad2bhere]
Kintama Offline
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from what Oldman drew (hands down and crossed in front) and what Gavin is hinting at...take a look at defenses against a bear-hug from behind (acting quickly and prior to the aggressor lifting you up).

worth a try...

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#183668 - 09/08/05 02:58 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Kintama]
butterfly Offline
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Kin,

For the Diamond Pose....I dug up a coppy of the form...If this is the one Bruce was talking about.
http://www.jenningscc.com/TaeKwonDo/Movies/MOV/wtf_10_keumgang.mov

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#183669 - 09/08/05 04:19 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: butterfly]
Kintama Offline
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you may have snagged the wrong clip...that looks like a competition form complete with tango 2-stepping twists. I give it a 3.5/6.0

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#183670 - 09/08/05 05:41 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Kintama]
butterfly Offline
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Another reason that I don't practice forms.

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#183671 - 09/08/05 08:47 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: butterfly]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
ok..I had a moment of frustration with this question, but I'm ok now.
I might have found another piece to the puzzle in regard to the mountain posture first mentioned.
Started with a hunch, after looking at the Shorin kata 'Chinto' (which I haven't learned yet). Chinto was renamed by funakoshi to 'Gankaku'. It contains a similar posture (including the half-mountain) except this kata also includes the turn described. find out some apps for this and it may give ideas.
I have a sneaking suspicion this will be a repetitive process when trying to determine the postures that seem to be thrown into the TKD kata...I'm pretty sure most of these will come from Shorin kata.
anyway, have a look for yourself:
http://www.nikawakai.co.uk/videos.htm

let me know if you see anything familiar...

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#183672 - 09/09/05 02:44 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Kintama]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Kin,

Just as an aside, I am probably the least among you trying to find applications in all of this. I have never trained bunkai in my life, so this sort of feels like reinventing the wheel.

I have trained applications, which I can somewhat see in these kata, but have never derived them from the kata...so bear with me. Some comments I make might be obvious....or just plain stupid.

-B

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#183673 - 09/09/05 03:34 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: butterfly]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
hey! I thought I had the market cornered on 'stupid comment production' !

actually, bf, the dumbest thing you have ever said was this: "Some comments I make might be obvious....or just plain stupid."

ok...now that everyone is feeling shiney and happy did anything actually help this thread?

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#183674 - 09/09/05 03:53 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: Kintama]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Nope!

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#183675 - 09/09/05 04:45 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: butterfly]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
While I have learned kata over the years, (erm...not TKD kata that is ), there was no bunkai per se, as the applications were spelled out quite clearly.

So I actually lurk with some interest here. The idea that you may not know a given application, and have to infer what it may be, is quite a step for me.

OR MAYBE YOU NANCY-BOYS JUST NEED TWO WORDS:

COBRA-KAI!!!!!!!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#183676 - 09/10/05 03:19 PM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: butterfly]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Yep--- that one-legged stance is the Diamond Posture.

I also saw the Mountain Posture several times including the turn.

Thanks for the clip.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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#183677 - 09/12/05 11:39 AM Re: Taekwondo Postures [Re: butterfly]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
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