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#183608 - 09/04/05 01:27 PM AKK kata question
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I'm interested to see what kata "long form #4" looks like...not to learn it (obviously) just to watch it. If not, what can you tell me about it's history, influences, principles/philosophies etc.

Much obliged,
-Ed

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#183609 - 09/04/05 08:40 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: Kintama]
Kintama Offline
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c'mon people (MattJ, Bushi_no_ki) I know AKK is out there, got anything on this kata? I've heard it has some Goju influence so I'm sincerely interested...

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#183610 - 09/04/05 09:05 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: Kintama]
MattJ Offline
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The American Kenpo kata are not related in any way to most of the other traditional kata found in Japanese or Okinawan karate.

The form is one of the longest and most complex in the AKK system (Long 7 is the final form in the system). It basically teaches how to defend against attacks coming from all 8 of the horizontal attacking angles (front, back, left, right, and the 45's of each).

It consists of 39 sets of individual, specific self defense techniques (ie; set #1 is against a L/R punch combo, set #2 is against a R/L combo, etc). The techniques themselves (each being approx. 3-5 moves) for the most part are the exact same ones learned in class and practiced on a partner. So, there is not any "bunkai" in the OMA/JMA sense. You already know what the application is.

Many of the techniques are simply mirror images of each other. This is significant in AKK, as the SD versions taught are specifically to one side or the other ie; "Sheild and Mace" is always done against a Right straight punch - never a left. So the students must literally be able to do EVERY technique in the form on both sides.

The use of angles and mirror-imaging of the techniques in the form is designed to give the student a higher level of coordination and awareness of the need to be able to work their skills equally on both sides.

Unfortunately, my meager Google-fu could not find any video of the actual form. I can give you this link of my former instructor doing some of the techniques in the form (although he is doing them on a partner).

http://www.jfkenpo.com/html/videogallerywindows.html

If you can imagine those being done without the partner, and strung together mirror-image style, that is more or less what AKK forms are like.

Hope this helped.
_________________________
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#183611 - 09/04/05 09:07 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: Kintama]
kenposan Offline
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so here is a ponderance.. why can't I find any videos online of AKK forms? I have tons of karate ones I have found online but can't seem to find any AKK.
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#183612 - 09/04/05 10:22 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: kenposan]
Kintama Offline
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I found that out as well...now it's got me really curious.

Thank-you Matt, it did help. It's not impossible (actually it's probable) that some of the techniques in Goju kata can be found in AKK forms ...go back far enough in both of the histories (as you know) and you see some common roots and influences. I was curious if I could see any I recognize.
thanks again

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#183613 - 09/04/05 10:44 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: MattJ]
kenposan Offline
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Quote:



Many of the techniques are simply mirror images of each other. This is significant in AKK, as the SD versions taught are specifically to one side or the other ie; "Sheild and Mace" is always done against a Right straight punch - never a left. So the students must literally be able to do EVERY technique in the form on both sides.





Maybe it's just late, but this confuses me. You stated that "shield and mace" is always used against a right straight punch, never a left, but then stated that every technique is performed to both sides. Isn't that contradictory? Help!
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The angry man will defeat himself in battle, as well as in life. -Samurai maxim

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#183614 - 09/05/05 02:39 AM Re: AKK kata question [Re: kenposan]
hedkikr Offline
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Why are all the video clips up-side-down?

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#183615 - 09/05/05 03:50 AM Re: AKK kata question [Re: hedkikr]
ButterflyPalm Offline
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Quote:

Why are all the video clips up-side-down?




There are up-side up for me
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#183616 - 09/05/05 10:00 AM Re: AKK kata question [Re: kenposan]
MattJ Offline
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Quote by Kenposan -

Quote:

Maybe it's just late, but this confuses me. You stated that "shield and mace" is always used against a right straight punch, never a left, but then stated that every technique is performed to both sides. Isn't that contradictory? Help!




It is a bit confusing. The SD versions of the techniques are only taught to one side or the other. When practicing them on a partner, say "Shield and Mace", the attack is only ever done as a right straight punch.

In Long form 4, however, you have to do it to BOTH sides ie; against the normal right punch, then against a left. So you perform a mirror image of the original technique. But you do not learn the mirror images as part of the SD syllabus.

Kintama -

Ok, I think I misunderstood you. There may be some Goju influence in the SD techniques we used in AKK, and by extension, in the kata. AKK certainly uses a fair amount of circular technique in the higher level techniques, which is similar to what I understand is used in Goju.

From what I have seen, the kata appear to be very different overall, though.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#183617 - 09/05/05 12:53 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: MattJ]
Kintama Offline
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here's what I found so far...no video though. actually, I couldn't find any video, even competition kata for AKK.

http://kenpousa.com/long4.htm
http://members.aol.com/wjm4kenpo/wjm305.htm

something else I found by accident...Prof. Chow performing kata from 1960.
http://www.kajukenboinfo.com/kaju_chow_kata_320.wvx
as an aside to this thread, anyone know the name of the kata?

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#183618 - 09/05/05 02:52 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: MattJ]
kenposan Offline
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Okay, so let me ask another question. If Shield and Mace is only practiced against a right punch, is there a technique against only a left punch? Now I realize most ppl are right handed and therefore you face a greater liklihood of facing a right punch, but if the technique is in Long 4, why would you not practice it with a partner?

Kenposan, the left-handed trouble maker.

And I again ask my other question- why no AKK videos online?? Now I more curious than ever to see what the forms look like!!! Come on Matt, grab a camera.
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The angry man will defeat himself in battle, as well as in life. -Samurai maxim

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#183619 - 09/05/05 03:51 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: kenposan]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

Okay, so let me ask another question. If Shield and Mace is only practiced against a right punch, is there a technique against only a left punch? Now I realize most ppl are right handed and therefore you face a greater liklihood of facing a right punch, but if the technique is in Long 4, why would you not practice it with a partner?




Yes, there are techniques taught specifically for left hand punches, that are not practiced as right hand punches. Mr. Parker did not want to throw too much at the lower ranks by making them learn all the SD techniques (24 per belt level, remember) on both sides right away.

As the students progress to a higher level, they are expected to learn the moves on both sides (on their own, not as a part of the syllabus). That is what the kata is for - gives the students the idea that all the moves can be done on either side, thus doubling the technical repetoire.

RANT:

While I have found AKK to be an excellent system to gain theoretical understanding of MA, the over reliance on specifics in the system causes the students to become somewhat narrow minded. The over abundance of technique causes them to forget to study the underlying principles, which is what Mr. Parker actually intended.

Instead, the students become rote-memorization monsters lacking the ability to apply the techniques because they do not understand the principles behind them. IMVHO, of course.

END RANT.

Quote:

And I again ask my other question- why no AKK videos online?? Now I more curious than ever to see what the forms look like!!! Come on Matt, grab a camera.




Curses. I had some of the AKK forms on video, but threw them all out when I started JKD (which does not do kata).

I will look again, but I think they are gone.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#183620 - 09/05/05 08:08 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: MattJ]
kenposan Offline
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okay, so I appear to be highjacking this thread, but it appears that not videos are to be found online so I think I am on safe ground.

Did you take up JKD for the reasons you noted in your rant? The reliance on rote instead of concepts?
_________________________
The angry man will defeat himself in battle, as well as in life. -Samurai maxim

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#183621 - 09/05/05 08:33 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: kenposan]
Kintama Offline
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Loc: Massachusetts
yes, you are hijacking the thread.
my question appears to have been answered: there are no mpegs available online and nobody currently practices AKK here. I'll assume it's not worth investigation enough to buy a video.
thanks anyway.

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#183622 - 09/06/05 06:06 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: Kintama]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Ok, I'm wondering as well why there are no vids online of AKK forms. It would seem that with all the intentions the EP had, trying to keep the material "secret" goes against them.

Kin, for future reference, I have seen Long 4 several times, and can answer general questions about it, but not any of the main principle questions. I know up to Short three, and therefore I know a little something about Long three. Now, I seek a consensus, for further discussion, should we continue discussing what MattJ and I percieve to be the shortcomings of AKK?

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#183623 - 09/06/05 09:25 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Kintama Offline
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thats not what this is about...I'm not comparing AKK kata in order to cut it down.

ok, since this thread didn't go anywhere...I'll come clean as to why I asked this particular question of this particular kata.
several years ago (early 90's? I forget), I first saw the movie 'perfect weapon' ... 1 year after that, I happened to meet a guy who used to train with Speakman..I asked him the usual question: "which kata was that in the beginning of the movie?" he said Jeff told him 'Long 4' - didn't mean anything to me at the time. Recently, I watched the kata again. The difference now is that I know AKK's rudimentary history and style basis (book knowledge, not in practice). I couldn't believe there was so much Goju influence...I mean, take out the spins and rapid fire techniques and I could pick out a dozen Goju bunkai directly from kata.
Speakman, as people know, and as I now know, has more Goju background than AKK (at the time of the film at least).
I simply wanted to see if that kata was changed for the movie.
If I saw AKK's 'official' long 4, I'd be able to tell.

I'm not trying to discredit anything - this was just a trivial curiosity. sometimes trivial curiousities leed themselves to something of interest. I had no idea it would be this much trouble. and initially felt it wasn't worth the explaination I now mention.

from this thread, I do find it very parculiar that one of the most popular styles in the US (at least during the 80's/90's) hasn't got anyone linking vids of AKK kata. but yet was able to find Prof. Chow doing kata from 1960.

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#183624 - 09/06/05 09:34 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: Kintama]
kenposan Offline
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Registered: 08/23/01
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Quote:


ok, since this thread didn't go anywhere...I'll come clean as to why I asked this particular question of this particular kata.I simply wanted to see if that kata was changed for the movie.





I was told by an AKK instructor that the form in Perfect Weapon is not a specific form, but a combination of forms created for the movie.
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The angry man will defeat himself in battle, as well as in life. -Samurai maxim

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#183625 - 09/07/05 04:08 AM Re: AKK kata question [Re: Kintama]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Don't worry Kin, the art in and of itself is actually quite hard to discredit. Now, several of the teachers of it in this country are easily discredited.

My problem is that the "technical" side of things is taken too seriously, and alot of the myths surrounding it are willfully perpetuated by the instructors. AKK is overrun by mcdojos, and alot of the IKKA affiliated schools I've seen websites of are obvious examples of that.

The art is good, but it has strayed far from what Master Parker wanted it to be, and has developed alot of shortcomings in it.

BTW, at this point, I am searching for another style to study. There isn't any TOMA in this area, but I'm about to move, so I'll see what there is when I do.

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#183626 - 09/08/05 05:12 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
butterfly Offline
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Bushi,

Good luck on the move and on whatever MA you do pick up!

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#183627 - 09/08/05 11:51 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: butterfly]
Kintama Offline
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update to bring this thread to conclusion:

I've seen a vid of 'long-4'.
wow...it's not called 'long' for nothing! it really is a loooong kata. about 2.5 minutes!

thank-you (you know who you are ) not sure if it's a secret since it was e-mailed to me without message, kinda like a midnight drop to the Washington Post during watergate. oh it did say: "The goods. -deepthroat" kidding. but seriously, I'm not sure what the deal is about no online vids of AKK. the kata is so long nobody would be able to learn it thru video anyway.

here's the deal...'perfect weapon' kata - its a mix of long-4 and Goju kata bits and pieces - so you were right - it's a made-for-movie kata.

looking for traces of Goju kata in long-4, found a couple sequences but nothing signature. so it's definitely not based on Goju, although like was mentioned, it could have some common roots....but absolutely an original. it's a bit softer than goju but more agressive than soft-fighting styles. definitely a kata for close-in fighting, with emphasis on quick hands and multiple less-committed attacks.

an interesting and cool kata. I have a new appreciation for AKK...who'd-a-thunk!

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#183628 - 09/09/05 04:46 AM Re: AKK kata question [Re: Kintama]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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If you think you have a new appreciation of AKK now, I hope you get the chance to learn a few of the SD techniques someday. As Matt said, don't get too attached to using them specifically as they're taught for the specific attack, but some of the ones that can easily be reduced to "flash" are some of the best action-reaction chains you could learn. The type of technique I speak of are the ones with definite AKK names, such as Five Swords, Thundering Hammers, or Backbreaker.

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#183629 - 09/09/05 07:08 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
ryan22 Offline
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Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 15
I have just currently started training in akk and the reason i picked the art was the current school im training at is the best from what i can see and hear from others high in the martial arts in this area... I can see how people can get caught up the tech. and not the principle i think my school does a great deal on doing spontanious things the help prevent that but anyways i was going to say that if u have questions on american kenpo u could go to kenponet.com the people that are on the forum there are i guess big names in kenpo if that means anything
ryan

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#183630 - 09/09/05 07:42 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: ryan22]
Kintama Offline
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thanx man.

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#183631 - 09/09/05 10:04 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: Kintama]
MattJ Offline
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Glad you got to finally see it, Kin. It's a monster, isn't it?

After learning Long 5 and most of Long 6, I said the hell with it. Those friggin' kata were killing me! JKD, here I come!

WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#183632 - 09/11/05 11:10 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: MattJ]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
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Quote:

Glad you got to finally see it, Kin. It's a monster, isn't it?

After learning Long 5 and most of Long 6, I said the hell with it. Those friggin' kata were killing me! JKD, here I come!

WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!




Maybe I'm doing the smart thing by switching out now, since I've only got to Short Three. I do want to go to a tradition karate if I can, but a TJMA would also be good.

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#183633 - 09/28/05 08:26 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: kenposan]
SenseiRob2004 Offline
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Registered: 12/02/04
Posts: 34
I have a typed up version of Long Form #4, but no video. As for why there are no videos out there...I belive it is because American Kenpo schools are about business rather than sharing knowledge freely. Which I dont have an issue with, since if you're only source of income is teaching, then why give it away??? What I'll do for you all, is I'll video tape myself performing Long Form #4 and post a link to it here.

But give me a few days, I do work full-time.

Sensei

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#183634 - 09/29/05 08:01 AM Re: AKK kata question [Re: Kintama]
SenseiRob2004 Offline
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Registered: 12/02/04
Posts: 34
Kintama,

I too loved Perfect Weapon....as for the kata at the beginning of the movie....it appears to be a few pieces of different kata's. As I was informed, it's not a taught kata...Jeff just made it up for the movie. Besides the shortness of the kata in the movie leads me to believe it's highly unlikely to be any of the long forms.

Sensei

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#183635 - 09/29/05 08:15 AM Re: AKK kata question [Re: SenseiRob2004]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
*sigh...blink...blink* Yes, but Jeff Speakman sure made the kata look good!


Edited by harlan (09/29/05 09:22 AM)

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#183636 - 09/29/05 10:34 AM Re: AKK kata question [Re: harlan]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I now consider us even with the 'childish' and 'lock me in a bathroom' posts. peace, my fellow and equal MAist forum enthusiast.

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#183637 - 09/29/05 07:28 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: harlan]
SenseiRob2004 Offline
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Registered: 12/02/04
Posts: 34
harlan,

I never said he didnt make it look good. That movie is the reason I wanted to train in Kenpo. He made it look awesome.


Sensei

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#183638 - 09/29/05 08:01 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: SenseiRob2004]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I'm pretty sure the movie was designed for exactly that response. The thing I find ironic is that they chose a Goju guy (Speakman was actually much higher in goju rank and training than AKK at the time of the movie), to represent AKK...that was one of the reasons for my curiosity - when I saw the kata again, I could see a definite Goju influence.
This was kind of an obscure little thread/question I thought, but seems to have received alot of attention. probably the hollywood factor why this would get more response than say a thread about Anthony Mirakian...who probably has 10x more interesting experience/knowledge in MA than Jeff Speakman. so goes fame.

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#436210 - 04/04/14 05:45 PM Re: AKK kata question [Re: Kintama]
MattJ Offline
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