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#183115 - 09/12/05 06:04 PM Re: correct attitude for senior grades [Re: Kintama]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hokay, I've had a few beers and now and have a glass of wine in hand with Bob Marley playing....I feel lubricated enough to tackle the subject!

I don't think ai-uchi could have ever seen this thread taking this course, so firstly I'd like to thank him for opening one big can of worms!

Galen asked the question ask the question as to why I still practice with the spirit of fighting in a battle, when the chances are that I'd never fight in one? I always tend to go into anything I approach with 110% of myself, this has yielded some almighty stuff ups, but also a few notable sucesses. My choosen art, a fighting one, involves the learning of the art of fighting (broken record!). It requires me to learn how to punch, kick, elbow, and strike and fight with my entire body. There is no other reason to learn these things other than to hurt. I'm afraid which ever way you look at it, a punch is violent! Spending "x" ammount of years throwing punches, is going to increase my capacity for violence. As I said, the flipside of learning about violence is the understanding of peace. So, by increasing my knowledge of the capabilities of violence, I also learn the capabilities of peace. The more intense my understanding of violence, the more intense my understanding of peace. So the harder my training, the greater the understanding.

Artistic matters aside The MA's has also instilled a deep sense of loyalty and duty. I also see my MA's training as an insurance policy. Insurance is something we take out for the likelyhood of something happen. Many go through life, without ever making a claim, but some who need to claim are stuffed when they don't have the cover. Despite Johnl's trivalisation of Doorwork, I have seen some horrific random acts of violence in my short time on the door. I want to be able to defend myself and loved ones to the highest level humanly possible. This requires me to push myself to the limits and increase my abilities to deal with the unknown, to take it to whatever level is needed to assure my loved ones safety.

Now it's very easy to take the stance that statistically it will never happen to me, but while the odd's are there that it could happen, I'll still prepare for it. A year or two back I had a guy try to break into my home, my girlfriend spotted him at the window and screamed. I yelled at him, and he just stood there. I actually went through the window to try and grab the guy. Luckily for him, he managed to jump back as I went through the window. I still managed to chase the guy down the road with a baseball bat (I was wearing South Park boxer shorts at the time, which puts a smile on my face now! Funny how the most terrifying momment of my life, now makes me laugh!) with my hands pouring with blood from the cuts. I can honestly say, without a shadow of doubt, if I had managed to grab the guy I would have probably killed him that night.

That night, I managed to defend my home and loved ones from an unknown threat. That night I cashed in my insurance policy, and it paid up. That's why I still train as if I'd fight as if I'd go to battle.

I hope that didn't sound VTG, the consquence of pushing myself to that limit had an intense side effect. It absolutely crushed me to know that I was capable of killing. To be honest this is the first time I've talked about this experience online and publicly, but I'm proud of both the fact the I could have killed the guy if nessecary to defend my loved ones and the fact that it affected me to the level that I really never want to feel like that again. To me, that was a pure moment of art and understanding in my path through life and the MA's.

I hope that answers your question Galen. Again, no disrespect to anyones motives for training, just trying to be completely honest!

Edited by Gavin (09/12/05 06:57 PM)
Gavin King
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

#183116 - 09/12/05 11:33 PM Re: correct attitude for senior grades [Re: Gavin]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
...well here we go again. I disagree with the general feel of your previous post. I'm going to pick on you, ready?

here's where the hair splits: it's hard to articulate, but lets just say for the sake of argument that I've never been in that exact situation and wouldn't know how I would have reacted...fair so far? ok given that, what I DO absolutely know about myself is that if something like that happened, I don't talk about it unless I'm giving a police report...I think hearing people tell such events in the way you just did almost makes it sound like you are bragging and proud of the way it went down.
It's this 'vibe' you sometimes give off that puts yourself in a less than complimentary light, and is the dividing hard-to-define distinction of the other ways people view the Fighting Arts.

other things to note...these are red-flag warning keywords and their meaning/misuse:

"battle" - technically, a fight during war...this is when you actually seek out and destroy the enemy by battling to the death. now, did you really mean to say 'battle'?

110% - At least 10% is illusion since you can only physically give 100% at any given moment.

"to hurt" - I meant it as a joke. I don't learn to 'hurt' people...thats tourture. I disable in order to get away, if they happen to get hurt in the process, it's not my concern as much as me getting out of danger.

"instilled" - such a dramatic and brainwashing.

I'm just pointing out with all of this, that at times, you sound a bit high-strung, action hero and gung-ho for my taste...maybe thats where the friction came from until you decided to tone it down. Acceptance is a powerful thing, it can get people to say what they think they should and not what they really feel.

If you got killed chasing the robber (how? simple, he stops, turns and shoots), how would that be protecting your family?

Still, the most important thing is to hear your family was did mention they were ok, didn't you...?

tied into original topic...the attitude you diplayed in that post perhaps carries over into the dojo...maybe, maybe not...maybe that was the concern I was hearing from others being expressed in previous posts...or maybe I'm being too hard on you since you wrote it when a little tipsy.

listen, fear and anger is not the way....but nobody is perfect.

#183117 - 09/13/05 03:37 AM Re: correct attitude for senior grades [Re: Kintama]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
High Strung, I prefer passionate!


listen, fear and anger is not the way....but nobody is perfect.

Round and round the mulberry bush.....I've articulated in every way possible my beliefs and reasons for training.

To be honest, I wasn't tipsy, two beers and a sip of wine, was just trying to lighten the tone for what was going to be a serious mail.

But with regards to the post, when talking about and discussing situations that involve intense and disturbing emotions, my use of language is going to be so. The reason for the VTG apology was really an obligated one, rather than heart felt. There are a few people here who have had very relevant real world experiences that would probably benefit the forum members, but when discussed they are almost branded charlatans. To be honest, the proof is in the pudding, I've stated that I'd never discuss anything I hadn't actually done or would do. Perhaps I'm a little too gung-hu for you, sure we can both live with that! Interesting analysis of the use of language. But sometimes for a forum dedicated to fighting arts, people seem sometimes reluctant to talk about actual fighting, which brings us neatly back to the conversation at hand....fighting arts, do they need fighting?

The offshoot of my training was the events that were described in my previous post, which part did it switch from defence to offence? The laying of chase on the guy, ofcourse. This was done completely and utterly out of anger, someone had invaded my property, ignored a warning shout (in hindsight, this could have been due to being startled). Did I want retribution for his actions, hell yeah, did I need it...ofcourse not. Was I thinking clearly at the time, no. Adrenaline flowing and fear mixed into the equation leads to irrational responses.

The same ethos that had allowed me to defend my family (they were fine, BTW) had also been manifested in a negative way. The desire for revenge. This was very short lived and replaced with a major bout of remorse and contemplation on my actions. To me this shows that me that I'm not ready to leave the temple yet. MA's has given me the tools not only to defend myself, but also appreciate the deeper, non-violent results of my actions. Had the intruder shot me, would I still be defending my family? Ofcourse not, and that's an issue to take back into the Dojo and iron out. I think I'm beginning to understand Galens perspective of fighting being the vechile.

I think this whole debate has been fuelled by our different ways of expressing the same thing, merely using different words. Some people are reserved, some aren't. On my profile on my website, I described myself as being fiery and opinionated...this isn't to everybody's liking, but I have kicked off a few corker debates now although I'm a little annoying at times, I do atleast hope I've given some entertainment value!

Edited by Gavin (09/13/05 03:41 AM)
Gavin King
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

#183118 - 09/13/05 07:26 AM Re: correct attitude for senior grades [Re: Gavin]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I was instigating in an already dried up bad. train well.

#183119 - 09/13/05 05:26 PM Re: correct attitude for senior grades [Re: Kintama]
ai-uchi Offline

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 200
Loc: harlow essex
i hope galen and gavin enjoyed the debate - i found i quite interesting reading all the replies.

made a nice change from who would win - 'bruce lee or the ninja turtle'type questions however is 4 on 1 a bit unfair?
streakers - your end is in sight

#183120 - 10/11/05 08:40 PM Re: correct attitude for senior grades [Re: Kintama]
Isatheprophet Offline

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 17
I have to say that there is a very real difference between respect and fear.

Certainly advance ranks should be of a mind to instill respect in the lower ranks. NOT fear.

what an utter load of tosh, crap and [censored] who are you to install respect to anyone in the dojo. SSsh this attidue really make me nuts, install respect indeed. Most peopel to Karate for the execerise not to get beaten up. If I wanted that I go to the local bar and have a go.

#183121 - 10/11/05 08:59 PM Re: correct attitude for senior grades [Re: Isatheprophet]
Mark Hill Offline

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1068
Loc: Australia
Join a gym, if you want to get some excercise. Walk the dog. Go for a run - you should train for fitness outside of "normal" training!

Most people have respect. Some people don't.

When an adult brown belt fights kids too hard, and he won't listen to black belts with better fighting ability, what is wrong with going too hard (with control) on him until he learns?

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