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#182733 - 08/31/05 10:32 PM What is "in the way" ?
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
How can a "layperson" help figure out what body parts are "causing them grief" doing a technique, exercise or particular drill...?

The body is a fairly complex organism with all kinds of interconnected (or is it inter-related ?) parts, such that when you put them together, and then move them in different ways you have all kinds of potential sources to isolate & explore.

If the X-rays come back "fine" and the "white coats" (ie medical doctors) say there's no anatomical issues, impeding somebody... how the blazes does someone identify the muscle, muscles, tendons, ligaments, etc.... in order to make positive changes, no matter how small???

For the sake of discussion, lets try... I don't know, sitting on the floor...soles of the feet pressing together in what many call a "butterfly" stretch.

How would you ever figure out what keeps one leg-knee FAR higher than the other while attempting to press both knees toward the floor? How would you go about figuring out what the offending muscles, or groups of them are ~interfearing~ with the simple lowering of ONE leg (even close to horizontal) to the height of the opposite leg ?

Thoughts Anybody?
Jeff

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#182734 - 09/01/05 01:50 AM Re: What is "in the way" ? [Re: Ronin1966]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Jeff,

Get an anatomical book or a muscle building book with descriptions of the body parts..muscles, tendons, and ligaments associated with the area in question.

Identify the problems that you have with respect to the activities that you are doing. Look at the specific physical area that seems to have some deficit in it while performing the above activities.

Then ask other martial artists if they have encountered the same situation and explore stretching and muscle building techniques to compensate for problems or expand use of that particular area.

-B

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#182735 - 09/01/05 10:14 AM Re: What is "in the way" ? [Re: Ronin1966]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
If the X-rays come back "fine" and the "white coats" (ie medical doctors) say there's no anatomical issues, impeding somebody... how the blazes does someone identify the muscle, muscles, tendons, ligaments, etc.... in order to make positive changes, no matter how small???

You might consider a book by Dr. John Sarno. The book is called "The Mind/Body perscription". His position on the origin s of different pain processes is very interesting. It is not about anatomy but how the mind and body , He refers to them as one, (mind/body) process and experience pain. It is a different perspective that I have found helpful. I'd get it from a library. If it makes sense to you and you find it beneficial you could purchase it. If you have seen a Dr. and find no injury or biological origin for pain or discomfort consider reading it.

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#182736 - 09/04/05 12:31 AM Re: What is "in the way" ? [Re: Ronin1966]
Solbrig Offline
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Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hmm,

This is complicated question but one that I believe can often be answered - assuming, as you say, that most underlying medical conditions have been ruled out. The simplist approach is to find a competent body worker in your area, ideally one who knows martial arts. If you are in Portland, I'd recommend my teacher. Other modalities that seem good to me are the Alexander Technique and Trigger Point Therapy.

But it is interesting to look at the problem in more detail.

Quote:

The body is a fairly complex organism with all kinds of interconnected (or is it inter-related ?) parts, such that when you put them together, and then move them in different ways you have all kinds of potential sources to isolate & explore.




Your description captures the problem in general.

However, I should mention some rules of thumb for actions that cause pain.

There are two situations to consider. One is that the action is being performed in such a way that it puts undo strain on one muscle or another. The other is there is an underlying habitual tension is directly interfering with the activity. These aren't really distinct problems - one can feed into the other.

Still, in the case of the butterfly stretch, it seems unlikely you performing it in extremely misaligned fashion (though its always good to notice what you are doing). I would assume with you that there are some muscles preventing your action. I would further guess that these muscles are habitually tense but the butterfly brings out this tension in sharper relief.

Now, it's worth asking what makes these muscle tense. One thing to notice here is whether you stand, sit or otherwise move in a way that puts stress on a muscle - in the case of the hips, these would probably be asymetrical postures - weight on one leg etc.. Experiment with changing these asymetrical positions - this might, at least, make you more aware of what muscles are tense.

Another thing to do is experiment with discovering all the directions you can move your leg - explore your range of motion. Approach the limitation from different angles. You can also start working on self-massage at the same time. If you any tender spots, pain attention without putting too much pressure on them. It's actually not that important figuring exactly which muscle is causing the problem. The most useful thing is exploring how the entire system of muscles works together and giving this system more options.

Beyond misaligned movement, there can be emotional issues related to particular muscle tensions. Assuming you feel comfortable dealing with these issues, they are can be brought to light by again exploring the limits of your range of motions.

If you do want to experiment by yourself, "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook" by Davies is an one interesting starting point as well as books on the Alexander Technique. We at Academy of Qi Dao will be publishing a book on the basic alignment principles of Qi Dao and once this is out it would another thing I'd highly recommend. Check our website for availability.

But again, no book or piece of advice can tell you everything. A competent professional can be good to enlist though find one you feel comfortable with can be a challenge.

Hans Solbrig
_________________________
http://www.qidao.org

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#182737 - 09/06/05 04:16 PM What is "in the way" ? [Re: butterfly]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Thank you for your thoughts,

<<Get an anatomical book

I have a good library of materials in many cross disciplines discussing exactly that. Unfortunately, describing an action for example this butterfly stretch has extensive (almost overwhelming) components, at least for a "layperson"...

If I were a PT I'd already understand what the challenge "in the way" might be but I shall keep reading, exploring but I fear there are too many interrelated potential parts which might either be "THE" real problem, or perhaps merely a symptom of the more important issues/anatomy underneath the surface... getting "in the way" that refuses to comply with very small and reasonable "requests".

<<Then ask other martial artists if they have encountered the same situation

Hense this thread

Look forward to more thoughts
Jeff

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#182738 - 09/06/05 04:22 PM Re: What is "in the way" ? [Re: Ronin1966]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Try meditating on your body. I 'discovered' all my old injuries/misuse...things that don't show up on the scanners.

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#182739 - 09/06/05 04:29 PM What is "in the way" ? [Re: oldman]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Appreciate the suggestion, I've been using Dr. Leon Chitow's "Soft Tissue Manipulation" book and have been enjoying it thoroughly, w/ re: to figuring out what the problems could be.

There have been others too, w/ re: to the butterfly stretch described originally, but as stated previously there ARE a heck of a lot of pieces involved in a simple (any) stretch
Lower back, hip, deep pelvic musculature, ligaments, the IT band, tensor fascie latae <sp.?> all kinds and manner of overlapping potential things which MIGHT or might not be the real problem-issue

In this particular case for example which makes the one knee (in the "butterfly" stretch) much, much higher, tighter and genuionely often unfomfortable than the other.... which mocks our best gentle & consistant efforts.

I'll see if www.half.com has any of the author you suggested. Hummmngh... almost wish there was an anatomical deficancy of some kind, they can at least be easily identified.

Jeff

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#182740 - 09/06/05 05:25 PM What is "in the way" ? [Re: Solbrig]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Mr. Solbrig:

I am grateful for your depthful input.

<<assuming, as you say, that most underlying medical conditions have been ruled out.

For better or worse they appear to have been.

<<The simplist approach is to find a competent body worker in your area, ideally one who knows martial arts.

Wish there was a true "board certification" (in the manner of Medical doctors) for either, it would make the search far simpler. My suspiction is that depending on their experience/"tools" each would likely describe the problem in the manner of the joke with the 12 Blind men and the Elephant? (Know the one?).

I know Bonnie Prudden's stuff as well as the Alexander technique at least conceptually, and experientially in a minor fashion. I am pleased I've at least done a fair job describing my general problem anyway!

<<Still, in the case of the butterfly stretch, it seems unlikely you performing it in extremely misaligned fashion (though its always good to notice what you are doing). I would assume with you that there are some muscles preventing your action.

My suspiction as well. Still it is possible the former is true, unlikely but possible. (I have made Yoga teachers weep with puzzlement & frustration most however were very young not trained well, if at all)

So how does one "isolate" the potential hip muscles, their respective actions to figure this out??? I cannot disconnect my parts and ignore the lower back, the ilopsoas the erector spinae <sp.?> any/all/none of which might be a minor factor in the whole greater issue (right leg, butterfly stretch, much higher-tighter, nearly painful)

<<Another thing to do is experiment with discovering all the directions you can move your leg

Exploring slowly very blessed slowly, so as not to let gravity or momentum give a false impression/reading.

<<You can also start working on self-massage at the same time.

Unforunately the body will not permit us to go very deeply into positions, stretches anything that cause contraction-pain hense mandating external assistance/expertise to do the exploration.... the body protects itself.

<<It's actually not that important figuring exactly which muscle is causing the problem.

But if I can determine the "bad part" I can figure out what exercise, technique to send at it/them and reduce its "mockery" towards my best efforts. If I can "name it" I can work to change it, unnamed and I fumble perhaps to positive benefit, but not as precisely as I am hoping...

<<Beyond misaligned movement, there can be emotional issues related to particular muscle tensions.

Not a big fan of the "Emotional Armoring" idea. Accept the mind does have a signifigant effect towards ones physiology but question the validity of anceint experience being directly causal of current problems (ie a "mean father" figure causing my right hip/lower back to do whatever it might be doing with me today...)

<<The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook" by Davies

Fond of the Leon Chaitow "Soft Tissue Manipulation" materials as well as I'd mentioned to someone before in the thread as well as the John Jerome "Staying Supple" book.

I will explore the Davies as funds permit... (didn't he write something else a while back??? His name is very familiar but canot place him...)

<<We at Academy of Qi Dao will be publishing a book on the basic alignment principles of Qi Dao

Of the publsihed materials available in English, would you say there is a decent parallel in the written Alexander materials to what/how you express your views/understandings of the body?

As time allows, I will attempt to visit your website...

I look forward to other thoughts you might have, and most definately for your elliquence & time

Most Gratefully,
Jeff

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#182741 - 09/08/05 03:48 AM Re: What is "in the way" ? [Re: Ronin1966]
Solbrig Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hi again Ronin,

Thank you for your kind words. I think looking at these "issues" is one of the most useful things that I can do as an aspiring healer - even if I'm only "looking" at the experience of folks posting on the internet.

While finding a body worker who resonates with you is often a challenge, I would still see this as one possibly crucial step. Rather than making your criteria whether the person has a documentation and certification, one alternative I would suggest is seeing whether the person can releive pain and relax your muscles by a simple touch - or alternatively, whether they simply feel like the like the right choice. Basically, unlike a contractor offering chimney work, they should be able to demonstrate competence immediately.

Otherwise, you are your own body worker - which hopefully means you want to learn quickly and be very creative for your first client (yourself).

<<Another thing to do is experiment with discovering all the directions you can move your leg

< Exploring slowly very blessed slowly, so as not to let gravity or momentum give a false impression/reading.

Hmm, since you know how gravity operates, there's no reason to elimenate it in your explorations. Just factor it in.

<<You can also start working on self-massage at the same time.

< Unforunately the body will not permit us to go very deeply into positions, stretches anything that cause contraction-pain hense mandating external assistance/expertise to do the exploration.... the body protects itself.

The other thing I would suggest is to allow your explorations to comulative. If you search for THE muscle that's causing trouble, you will dismiss the responses of all the other muscles. If you start looking at how your muscle system works, every twinge you get is part of the information you are accumulating.

<<Beyond misaligned movement, there can be emotional issues related to particular muscle tensions.

< Not a big fan of the "Emotional Armoring" idea. Accept the mind does have a signifigant effect towards ones physiology but question the validity of anceint experience being directly causal of current problems (ie a "mean father" figure causing my right hip/lower back to do whatever it might be doing with me today...)

Well, I would not assume that emotional issues are involved. It is just one thing that is worth checking out with yourself. And wouldn't assume that the emotional issues are past issues - present attitude, experiences and emotions are also worth looking at (stress at work or school, etc).

<<We at Academy of Qi Dao will be publishing a book on the basic alignment principles of Qi Dao

< Of the publsihed materials available in English, would you say there is a decent parallel in the written Alexander materials to what/how you express your views/understandings of the body?

Actually, the discussion would be substantially different from anything in English presently - though given that human body has some uniformity to it, our book won't be absolutely different from books on Alexander, Feldenkrais or other methods.

Later,

Hans
_________________________
http://www.qidao.org

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#182742 - 09/08/05 10:47 AM Re: What is "in the way" ? [Re: Ronin1966]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I know this forum is home to the more functionally oriented martial artist...but I have always had this issue with looking at the body as a machine, and seperate from self.

"What is in the way" of (insert goal). In my case, I could say that a set of "bodacious ta-ta's" is "in the way" much of the time. However, I am not about to go Amazonian to 'improve' my (insert goal).

And what can get in the way , of 'the way', anyway?

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