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#182722 - 08/31/05 10:11 PM "Good Mechanics"
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello.

How do you determine what the concepts, principles of XYZ technique to be? Will they change meaningfully if you chain them together (ie kata) in combination ?

Look forward to your views,
Jeff

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#182723 - 09/01/05 08:57 PM Re: "Good Mechanics" [Re: Ronin1966]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
could you elaborate on the question or put it in another way? I'm not getting what you are after...

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#182724 - 09/02/05 01:13 PM Re: "Good Mechanics" [Re: Ronin1966]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hmmm....your question is a bit vague. I would venture to say that the principles involved will remain essentially the same - the technique itself may vary.

PRINCIPLE -

Unbalance the opponent by manipulating the head

TECHNIQUE -

1) Punch to the nose

2) heel palm to the chin

3) Grab ear/hair and pull

Principle remains the same, regardless of technique.

Your desired end result will determine what "chain" of principles (and thus which techniques) will be required to acheive it.

Kata application is another matter altogether. Different applications will reflect different principles. Let's take a downward forearm motion. It could be:

1) a downward block to a strike

2) a strike to a downed opponent's kidneys (or face, depending on which way the opponent went down)

3) an arm drag takedown

The application will affect the principle in this case.


Edited by MattJ (09/02/05 04:45 PM)
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#182725 - 09/13/05 11:58 PM Re: "Good Mechanics" [Re: Ronin1966]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
Quote:

Hello.

How do you determine what the concepts, principles of XYZ technique to be? Will they change meaningfully if you chain them together (ie kata) in combination ?

Look forward to your views,
Jeff


Quote:






More clarity please......
_________________________
http://www.hotforwords.com

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#182726 - 09/19/05 09:55 AM "Good Mechanics" [Re: Isshinryukid4life]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Good Morning:

My apologies. Let me try and add better context... ok, looking at a few movements chained together within a kata (ie a sequence) how do you go backward and figure out the assorted principles, concepts which that sequence demonstrates?

Lets assume further we're not being spoon fed the answer(s), and its not written down someplace. How do you analyze a simple kata sequence and determine, extract, isolate the ideas whether its screaming/whispering in them?

Better ?
Jeff

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#182727 - 09/19/05 01:28 PM Re: "Good Mechanics" [Re: Ronin1966]
RaginRhino Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 9
We had a guest instructor at our club once and he had a huge interest in kata application and had studied it for many years. His biggest thing was to simply get together with a training buddy (or group) and simply experiment with the different things you could do with a given movement or combination of movements.

Example (that he showed us): very first move in Heian Nidan could be a
1) double strike to the armpit and face coming in from a 45
2) simultaneous block to an incomin haymaker and a punch to the face
3) double block
4) a setup for an armbar/jointlock
and the list goes on...

He had several techniques that branched off of each the previously listed ones and were very interesting to see.

The point is that you can get many viable uses from many of the single movements and combos. It may not have been the original intent of the kata's creator, but guess what... he's probably not stopping by your training session, and most people (even those who claim to) don't know the true meaning and techniques hidden in Kata. Kata application is what you make it, so be imaginative and have fun with it.

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#182728 - 09/19/05 06:36 PM "Good Mechanics" [Re: RaginRhino]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello:

How can one not have an interest in how the kata function I wonder (rhetorical question)???

<<and the list goes on...
Ok, now here's the thing... the movements themselves can be used in many ways, PROVIDED they adhear <sp.?> to the principles of those movements, and concepts of a particular sequence.

My question at any rate is how you determine what the principles of a given sequence to be!?!?! If the movement shows high techniques (in a certain area of the body) you cannot simply substitute some random lower body technique, or block (whatever the case) without causing all kinds of problems, in that given sequence of the kata.

Can we substitute sure, can we substitute at random, haphazardly... I hypothesize the answer clearly to be no... certain principles & concepts of movement, etc. are fundamental within a sequence... how do "we" dig these out to figure them out???

Kata is quite enjoyable... always.
Jeff

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#182729 - 09/20/05 12:06 PM Re: "Good Mechanics" [Re: Ronin1966]
RaginRhino Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 9
To clarify my perspective, I'll tell you something I've never really liked about the association that my club belongs to. It seems every couple of years there are certain techniques that are changed slightly in our kata and the way they are "supposed to be performed"... Both ways of doing it make sense in different situations, so which one is right? Beats me... That's where I've come to believe that kata application and interpretation are a pretty "gray area" type subject. The application that you or your club choose to train will change the body mechanics required to perform the technique correctly.

I personally like the idea of using very similar movements to do different things. For one, it can fake out an opponent who thinks they see the same thing coming and react to a technique you used previously.

As I previously mentioned, creative experimentation was the key to our guest instructors study of kata application.

If you are having issues figuring out the proper body mechanics for an application that you think of, you should probably just ask your instructor after class.

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#182730 - 09/22/05 01:26 PM "Good Mechanics" [Re: RaginRhino]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Thank you for your response!!!

Ahhh the paradox of demonstration, ie the "right" way. The usage, the explaination is restricted by the principles of the movement/sequence. If the body uses the same positioning, the same beginning, the same end place... does its usage matter; conditioned upon the "rules"-principles of that sequence?

As for altering, "THE" way it was shown you at some earlier point, can new understanding lead to new expression? Trade-up so to speak? I did it one way 1, 5, 10, 20 years back (take your pick), it possible we learn some subtlety between then and now?

<<you should probably just ask your instructor

You misunderstand. Im searching how others do this interesting process...

Jeff

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#182731 - 11/21/05 07:02 PM Re: "Good Mechanics" [Re: RaginRhino]
steelwater Offline
On the Ansatsuken installment-plan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 222
Quote:


Example (that he showed us): very first move in Heian Nidan could be a
1) double strike to the armpit and face coming in from a 45
2) simultaneous block to an incomin haymaker and a punch to the face
3) double block
4) a setup for an armbar/jointlock





That is very interesting. Our instructor taught us that the first three movements in Heian Nidan was:
1. A "double block" with an emphasis on punching the bronchial muscle/nerve (I believe that's the technical name)
2. An "outside block" a particular point on the neck.
3. A hammerfist to the nose.

I never thought about any other applications. I'm starting to realize just how fluid and adaptable kata actually is.

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