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#182516 - 08/31/05 08:43 AM Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hi folks, glad everyone like the point of the week, last week...here's this weeks point as requested by Jango.....God I sound like a DJ, "And now on PP FM, Point of the Week, as requested by Jango..."

As usual, don't try this without a qualified instructor, don't run while holding pointy objects, and don't take the micky out of oldman - The pen is truely mighty than the sword!

Large Intestine 10/LI10 or Shousanli (Arm Tree Li)

This weeks point is Large Intestine 10, or LI10 for short. Its on a Metal meridian and is of a Yang polarity according to TCM theory. It is located slightly down from the elbow here..

LI10 is actually one of the 36 Vital points listed in the Bubushi. This should to serve as an example of the effectiveness of this point, and why was used so much in Kata.

Striking

I have found that there are two angles of attack for this point. If you strike in with a sharp hit in at a 90 degree angle straight into the muscle it will instantly numb the entire lower arm. The head will be jerked forward, but I find that the 90 degree angle is best for more limb destroying style attacks.

The other way of attacking this point is by using a cutting strike, and cutting in towards the wrist. This will jerk the head violently forwards in a whiplash style fashion.

As a set up technique, I prefer the second method. Although the arm isn't numbed as much as it is with the first, it just seems to open out the points of the neck better.

The first method I like to use to completely paralyze the lower arm. This sort of strike can easily be adapted for a standard parrying style of movement.

Which ever method you use, you must always be aware of the opponents head. With it jerking forward so quickly, it would easy to be caught by an unintended head butt. Although this jerking action can be used to your advantage by impaling them on a follow up strike!

This point can also be activated by pressing. Although I seriously doubt the combat effectiveness of this. It would require alot of hand strength and accuracy, which under the effects of Adrenaline, I don't think would be feasiable.

Applications

As with last week, applications are purely subjective. These will just serve as an example to prompt further discussion.

First off a parrying style motion. Lets say the opponent throws a big lunging straight punch, and you come down to meet it with your hand. Instead of meeting it with a nice friendly parry, use the heel of the palm to crash down into LI10. If you use pointy boney outter edge of the wrist, you can really hurt the arm. This causes the head to jerk forwards. A nice palm heel or punch to the face off your other hand can be very effective.

Off a single handed lapel grab, firstly get your hands up and protect against a head butt or punch from the other hand. As soon as that grab goes on, palm them to face twisting their head away from the grabbing hand. So if they grab with their right hand, smash their face round to the left, and vice versa for the left. This will take their attention away from the grabbing arm, and also straighten it out to expose the point more. Using the hand that you palmed their face with (securing the grabbing hand with your other), crash down into LI10 using your prefered weapon. This will jerk the head forwards and open out the points of the neck. Still using the arm you smashed LI10 with, smash up into the neck with a head block (Jodan Uke), Stomach 9 is a great target and will stun the living hell out of them!

-----------------------------

Well there's some food for thought, hope that was of interest!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#182517 - 08/31/05 11:39 AM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: Gavin]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Nice one Gavin,

Im relativly new to PPs and found that very interesting.

i dont really have anything to add, totally agree that 'striking' the point is the way forward and it is essentially a 'set up' point.

It does match an okinawna view of striking the nearest target ie if grabbed wreck the arm on your way in to wrecking the opponent, however in reality im not sure of its effectivness when cloths are in the equation. However it hurts like hell in the dojo with short sleeves.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#182518 - 08/31/05 11:50 AM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: shoshinkan]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Extreme power and shock are the name of the game. Rand Cardwell covers this brilliantly in the "The Western Bubushi", the excert the pertains to this is here. Basically the idea is that you deliver such a huge amount of shock into the target, that whether you hit it cleanly or not, the amount of shock being sent into the body is going to fire up the point anyway.
_________________________
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Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#182519 - 08/31/05 05:30 PM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: Gavin]
jamesd Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 145
Loc: Essex,England
Hi Gavin,

I find that Large Intestine 10 is a great target to strike especially when jamming an opponents hook punch eg: attacker throws a right hook,defender steps inside strikes LI10 with his left forearm he also simultaneously strikes with his right elbow to the attackers head or chest, by doing this a tremendous amount of pain and shock will be sent into the opponent, this application works extremely well when fighting close and the great thing is, the harder the opponent hits you the more pain and shock they receive back! regards,


James.

PS. I owe you for that Jaw lock!
_________________________
www.hardfasthandway.com

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#182520 - 08/31/05 09:16 PM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: jamesd]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Two huge blokes, must have been 50 stone between them, were crash testing this technique on me Tuesday night.
I was always sceptical of PP striking, but this one is fairly easy to hit. My arm has been a little tender all day from it so I can vouch for the efficacy of striking LI10. The reflex jerk of the head forward puts you neatly in range for all sorts of nasties.
Pretty effective overall.

BTW
I went to try the techniques on them, but they ran away crying. *something about going to get his Dad...*
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#182521 - 09/01/05 04:38 AM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: jamesd]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Its amazing what I forget, of course this is a superb method of defending against the 'haymaker'.

I train to block doublebone (if caught static) or if projecting energy forward to strke the opponents limb use ox jar strike, knifehand style.

I never really thought of this as activating points, but it does and when done properly totally sets up the finishing technique/s. I call it aggressive defense.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#182522 - 09/01/05 05:17 AM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: McSensei]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

I went to try the techniques on them, but they ran away crying. *something about going to get his Dad...*




Oooooooooooooooooooh McSensei you're gonna get it! Can't wait til you come down next! Bagsy I get you next time when we glove up for that drill you like so much!

James, atleast you didn't have to go to hospital after my handywork! May I draw your memory back to the state of my eye after your 3rd dan....

Anyway back on topic....LI10 can also be a great setup for a figure 4 lock. For example, off a big right cross step to the outside check the punch with your left hand. With your right come up under the punching arm and palm to the face, knocking the head up and away. This will stretch out the arm for a clean strike to LI10. If you strike it using either the radial bone or preferable the ridge of the hand using a cutting angle to the wrist it folds the arm and numbs it, leaving it nice and open for the lock!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#182523 - 09/01/05 08:23 AM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: Gavin]
Jango Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 28
Well done Gavin once again that was impressive. That is a very effective point I must say.

After doing this you can follow it up with GB20.


Edited by Jango (09/01/05 08:33 AM)

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#182524 - 09/01/05 09:25 AM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: Jango]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Cheers Jango, hopefully you got the information you wanted out of that one.

GB20 although possible to strike wouldn't be my first choice. If you attack LI18, you'll get a jerking motion from the head, the chin will stick out. The result of the chin sticking out is the back of the head dips into the neck, making GB20 alot harder to hit. However the flipside to that is that other points open up, ST9, LI18 and TW17 for example.

Hitting LI10 and following up TW17 is a lovely application for Uchi Uke!


Edited by Gavin (09/01/05 09:36 AM)
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#182525 - 09/03/05 10:36 AM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: Gavin]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
About striking LI10 when defending from a hook punch. I don`t see how this could be done? LI10 is more on the outside. Perhaps you are confusing LI10 with Lu5?

Good warning about the headbutt. If possible (I guess it depends on the technique) when striking LI10 (or Lu5) turn a bit to put your shoulder in the way. So his head hits your shoulder (if it gets that close).
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#182526 - 09/03/05 07:13 PM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: Kosh]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Kosh I think your right here. LU5 is an easier shot than LI10. James probably is confusing them, I have no doubts he'll try both out on me next session!

OK folks, we've got some good stuff on LI10. Requests for next weeks point?
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#182527 - 09/03/05 07:38 PM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: Gavin]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
yep and I followed the error, lU5 would be the spot.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#182528 - 09/04/05 02:01 PM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: Kosh]
jamesd Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 145
Loc: Essex,England
Hi Kosh,

Good point about hitting Lung 5 but i wouldn't rule out Large Intestine 10 as a valid target, there is a lot of factors that determine which target is the best option ie: where the punch is delivered from, it could be the attacker has thrown the punch from his waist, also what angle the fist is at on delivery, some people hook punch with the thumb of their fist pointing vertically others horizontally, i personally try to put as much shock into that area as possible and it's quite easy to activate both the large intestine and lung points together when striking that area, most importantly my main objective is to jam the attackers strike and send shock into them, just like Gavin mentioned in an earlier post this aspect of activating several points together is covered extremely well in Rand Cardwell's excellent book 'The Western Bubishi'. I hope this comes across clearly because i'm new to all this forum stuff! kind regards,

James
_________________________
www.hardfasthandway.com

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#182529 - 09/04/05 02:22 PM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: jamesd]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I got your gist James. Don't worry I'll do a "How to type forum posts" lesson tomorrow at the club! Dad's getting used to it too!

We're gonna play around with the LU5 and L10 strikes on tuesday night. We'll also experiment at see if we can activate both at the same time. James I'll let you whap, got an idea how we can test this out. I'll probably be typing one handed on tuesday though!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#182530 - 09/04/05 02:23 PM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: Gavin]
jamesd Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 145
Loc: Essex,England
hi Gavin,

Quote:

Hitting LI10 and following up TW17 is a lovely application for Uchi Uke!




I think you meant soto uke maybe you've got them confused! He! He! He! kind regards,

James.
_________________________
www.hardfasthandway.com

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#182531 - 09/04/05 04:36 PM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: jamesd]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
I've had many a confused conversation about soto and uchi uke with MAs of different styles.
Some say uchi uke is inside travelling out and others say the opposite.
I've never come across 2 instructors from the same club arguing about it though.

Gavin,
How about GV14?


Edited by McSensei (09/04/05 04:46 PM)
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#182532 - 09/05/05 04:12 AM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: McSensei]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
GV14? Well someones been reading their Bubushi, might do that one. We'll see, I think I'll suprise you all this week!

With regards to the Soto Uke, Uchi Uke..James is right, I did mean Soto Uke. And there isn't really much arguing in the club, he's really quite a bully when he wants to be!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#182533 - 09/06/05 05:24 AM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: Gavin]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

We're gonna play around with the LU5 and L10 strikes on tuesday night. We'll also experiment at see if we can activate both at the same time. James I'll let you whap, got an idea how we can test this out. I'll probably be typing one handed on tuesday though!




Me and James had a play around with this last night, he threw a copy of hard hooks and we just freeze framed the strike. Although I'm pretty confident I could activate both, LI10 was definately the point the I found easier to go for. James also had the same experience. FWIW.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#182534 - 09/07/05 04:23 PM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: Gavin]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
Could you please describe this if possible, because I don`t see why it would be easier. I tried this yesterday and LI10 was to far out to reach it, unless if I striked it downward which was a bit weird. Lu5 was much easier for me. I guess I could strike LI10 if the hand rotated (?) more.
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#182535 - 09/08/05 05:22 AM Re: Point of the Week - Large Intestine 10 [Re: Kosh]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
No probs mate. When we attack the arm we tend to come down on it slightly, keeping the hands held quite high in the fence. However to be honest even when jaming the point just seemed more accessible to us. We did find though that when attacking horizontally, with a punch for example then LU5 was a an easier target to hit. I feel this would be a little more risky on the street as you stand alot more chance of missing.

We did double check to make sure it was LI10 we were hitting, rather than LU5. Everytime we tried, with the hooking hand both vertical and horizontal, we naturally struck the outer edge of the arm. When jaming in hard, we covered both points, but LI10 was the one that was hurting.

Perhaps we've just got a strange way of doing things!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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