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#182156 - 08/29/05 08:54 PM Gong-Fu in the streets
Stone Carver Offline
Thinker
Member

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 80
Loc: Dixie
Many people say that gong-fu is to flowery an ineffective. And, for the most part this is true. But, if one looks back far enought almost all gong-fu systems were developed for actual combat. I,ve theorized that if one could get back to basics and strip away all the changes that have occured over the years(such as the flashy moves added by the Pi King opera)the systems become drasticaly more effective. Just something to chew on, I'd love to hear other peoples success stories in the future.
_________________________
“I am the MOST modest person in the world. You hear that? ME!”

Stone Carver

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#182157 - 08/30/05 04:04 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia


Jingle, Jingle Little Star,
How I wonder what you are,
Up above the world so high,
Like a diamond in the sky.


Snakes are coiled upon the granite,
Horsemen ride into the West,
Moons are rising on the planet,
Where the worst must suffer like the rest.


If you were to teach early grade school children, which of the two verses will you choose? Why?

Traditionally, martial arts (like Kung Fu, karate etc) practice starts at a very young age. It is only when it came to the West did older or even elderly people took it up. It is therefore understandable that these older people finds it "flowery" and therefore thought that the combat-functional elements are missing. When I started at a young age like everybody else, I never thought about combat-efficiency or the lack of it; in fact we were not encouraged to think much; what opinions could a boy of 6 or 7 have about matters as complex as combat-efficiency? Just do what you are told and things will happen as a matter of course for the people who invented these things are a lot smarter than you.

The problem now of course is telling this to a 20 year old Westerner, who is not doing it to inherit or to perpetuate a great family cultural tradition, but to seek out in the shortest possible time the "secrets" of fighting. He is also 20 years old and cannot be spending the next 10 years weaving 'flowers' Please there are exceptions and these exceptional people have my admiration. If I had not started at a very young age, I too would have had the same complaint.

The study of TMA is like an inverted pyramid; lots of flowery stuff at the top and slowly, gradually wind down to a small sharp tip where all the so-called flowery stuff are condensed into a few moves, which are really the true combat-essence of that particular style; but to do these few moves with the required devastating accuracy and power, you need to have gone through the flowery stuff. Some people may not agree with this, but that at least was the theoretical bases.

So to get at the essence of the second poem above, you need to have understood the first.

For those who "got" the essence of the first poem and still couldn't get at the second.......ehhhhh.......seek out a qualified instructor in your area.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#182158 - 08/30/05 02:33 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
tookien1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Only a few styles of kung-fu are actually very effective and have not been modified for sport/competition fighting due to western influence. If you want a good style for real no rules fighting, then I suggest Pak Mei (white eyebrow), do some research on this style, you'll find nothing else like it. This style is rare and hard to find with a credible Master. Its incredible hard and takes patience and determination to get good at, no shorcuts on this one.

tookien1

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#182159 - 08/30/05 04:08 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
I don't know i think things are much easier then people make them. just like the socalled secrets of gung fu, wushu, whatever you like to call it. my point is i don't believe in such secrets, i don't really think there's is any secrets at all the only secret is is that there is no secrets and i think after a lifetime of martial arts someone might just figure that out. A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick that's all there is to it. that my friend is the secret of martial arts. it's simplicity. it's not hard to understand tai chi, bagua zhang or any art for that matter they all teach the samethings. almost all of them use the same ideas in one way or another. yin yang is not hard to understand, how the concept of yin yang applies in martial arts, well like this do not use force against force, just go with it do not try to change it accept it, do not worry about if you win or lose both are a natural part of life just let it happen and let it take it's course.
yin yang are never seperate that is impossiable. yin yang are two forces that work within each other, one action is a reaction to the other and so on forever. there is no hard or soft style. a person that believes a style can be pure hard or soft does not understand yin yang. people cannot live without the sun and the moon you must have both in order for the earth to be able to sastain life. you understand with pure sun everything would burn and die, and with pure moon or darkness if you will, then everything would die because earth needs the suns energy to survive and the earth needs the moon to control it's gravitiy and the oceans, without the moon the earth would slip into chaos. forgive my bad spelling but you get my point. yin yang are one in the same. all styles use the same concepts for the most part. so you see the only different thing is their body movements. after all how many ways are they to come in on somebody without leaving a opening for them to attack. not many.

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#182160 - 08/30/05 05:25 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Any art can be practiced and but if you know how to strip down a art to vital needs Gung-fu is very effective in a street fight. I know of several men who have built a reputation on the street handling street punks and gang memebers using Ch'uan-fa. One is so effective that even his golden glove boxing cousin is in awe of him. He has seen him in combat were as a boxer can handle 1 opponent pretty handily, he has seen Ken take out three at one time. This guy reknowed for his fighting ability.

He showed me a knee to elbow arm break technique, its disguised so U don't respond to it until its too late. He is a powerful technican. Though a medium size man he has in a nightclub confrontation knocked bigger stronger men out with a punch or punches.

If practiced correctly Gung-fu is very street effective.
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DBAckerson

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#182161 - 08/30/05 06:33 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: ButterflyPalm]
tookien1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
I also think that there are no secrets in MA. A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. Thats correct, but then punch someone with a pheonix eye in the solar plex, rib cage or throat would do ten times more damage than a normal punch. But not everyone can use pheonix eye unless it's conditioned properly and knowing where to hit. So obviously its not a secret because I'm addressing it on the forum, but go up against someone who's trained with it for 20 years, make one mistake, and your in for it.

tookien1

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#182162 - 08/30/05 07:30 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: tookien1]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
The secrets of gong fu, or any martial art, have nothing to do with the techniques themselves, but what you develop as, and derive from mentally, physically, and spiritually from your training. The secrets come naturally to you when training, or sometimes even just meditating or thinking. A good teacher can help you reach them, on your own.

Tookien, Pak Mei is definitely the #1 style of gung fu that I want to learn, but I can't find it. Is there any credible teachers around Dallas Texas? I might be moving to LA or San diego next year, any around there?
_________________________
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

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#182163 - 08/30/05 08:14 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
Stone Carver Offline
Thinker
Member

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 80
Loc: Dixie
I'm not talking about making gong-fu into some new super straight-forward system for street fighting.
I,m not talking about casting aside tradition.
I,m talking about making it more traditional, by decoding the system and reverting it back to what it once was.
Changes have occured over the past thousands of years.
If one takes the system back to it's origanal form(which I know isn't entirely possible) than it will inevidably be more practical in combat.
_________________________
“I am the MOST modest person in the world. You hear that? ME!”

Stone Carver

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#182164 - 08/31/05 02:55 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
Not necessarily. What we need is teachers first of all with enough experience, actual trianing time, and no commercial/political nonsense that plagues martial art schools now. And people who are willing to work hard, learn every day (not just twice a week)and dedicate alot of time. That is the only real way gong fu is as effective as it should be.
_________________________
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

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#182165 - 08/31/05 08:29 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
things should change with the times. that's the natural process of life things change. if things stop changging then it becomes stale and dies. anyone that believes the concept of yin yang should welcome change. things change to fit the needs of people today, that's how life works. people should stop looking to the past at traditions and such and look to the future. to me any traditional ma wouldn't have a problem with this because if they know the yin yang concept then they will understand that life is change and you should go with it and not against it.

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#182166 - 08/31/05 09:56 AM Baguamonk [Re: Stone Carver]
tookien1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Hey Baguamonk, I already e-mailed the head of the Pak Mei organization in NA to find out about the locations, they should tell me this week and I will e-mail you back

tookien1

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#182167 - 08/31/05 12:53 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: etaks86]
Jing Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 11
Loc: NY
Quote:

I don't know i think things are much easier then people make them. just like the socalled secrets of gung fu, wushu, whatever you like to call it. my point is i don't believe in such secrets, i don't really think there's is any secrets at all the only secret is is that there is no secrets and i think after a lifetime of martial arts someone might just figure that out. A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick that's all there is to it.




Look i think you misunderstand "seceret". To my understanding kung fu is taught with forms. Tjhose forms most people think are techniques annd practise or whatever. But the timming and subtlties that most begginner, intermediate and advanced students never see are the secerets. Its not like its hidden, its just people literally dont see it. I always get that, why dont my techniques work..i do them just liek you...but no one ever really does. They miss the "timming and subtleties" that only highly trained people see. My sigung once said disheartend that he didnt like to perform. My father asked why, and he responded no one will see what makes the form beautiful. As for flowery...my Kung Fu system is the exact opposite. There is nothing flowery about it. Which is a problem because it is sometimes very tough on newcomers, and we often loose people over it. As for the kick is a kick and a punch is a punch...i disagree. A kcik isnt just a kick. Ive seen masters kick very well, but miss stuff like positioning of the heel or timing between lifting the knee and releasing the kick. Example, in my system, we tell people never to do a roundhouse, or hook strikes for opening moves...and yet so many systems will say (ie boxing/kickboxing) hooks and roundhouses are key. IMO its fairly ignorant to say a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. Your missing the subtlties in things that take years of practice to understand.
_________________________
Always empty your cup when you walk into somehwere new...

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#182168 - 08/31/05 02:26 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Jing]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
well you can believe what you like but it doesn't make your opinion right in any way. as for me being ignorant as you put it that's just a matter of opinion which doesn't mean that your's is right. and futher more i got enough manners and respect not to call people such things but i guess your martial arts didn't teach you humbleness or manners. so you can believe what you want but it doesn't make my opinion wrong and it doesn't make yours right. so believe what you will it's your life. and also i mean no disrespect but it seems like you do. so have fun i wish you the best in life. but i do hope in the future that you can express yourself without calling people wrong or names such as ignorant.

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#182169 - 08/31/05 03:12 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: etaks86]
Jing Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 11
Loc: NY
Im not calling you an ignorant person, i guess im just saying your statement is very close minded. Im not saying i am right, just stateing a different view on the subject. I am just expressing my feelings towards the subject, i dont really care what people think of it, but at least its out there for people who do want to see something new or different. Dont think everyone will just agree with what you say in life. And how am i not being humble? I have said nothing about you personally, just my thoughts of the statement you have expressed. I may not agree with you, but at least i accept the fact that our views can be different.
_________________________
Always empty your cup when you walk into somehwere new...

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#182170 - 09/01/05 07:55 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Jing]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Let's play nice gentleman and remember to stay on topic. Even if you do not agree with an opinion, do not attack the person who has stated it. You may openly voice your disagreement with the statement but do not attack the speaker. Now, back to the topic at hand.
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#182171 - 09/01/05 08:56 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
goedikey Offline
Member

Registered: 06/27/04
Posts: 59
Loc: CANADA
What type of kung fu are you talking about ?

There is traditionnal, orthodox Kung Fu and then theres "Contemporary wushu".

Contemporary wushu is a performance art thats all.

Orthodox, traditionnal KF is for self defense.

If your art is from a traditional lineage, then every detail of your forms, as flowery as can be, probably has a meaning in terms of self defense.

I am ont talking about fighting in a ring but rather defeating someone in the streets.(Groins, eyes, throat strikes etc..., evasion and anti grappling)


Edited by goedikey (09/01/05 08:58 AM)

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#182172 - 09/01/05 09:01 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: RazorFoot]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
IMO - One of the reasons that you see big flowery movements, is that you need big movement to learn how the body works.
Taking your body to it's extreme ranges motions while trying to maintain it's balance and structure builds coordination which anybody practicing MA's knows is a vital component to becoming a good martial artist.
Only after you have learned how the body works and have coordinated your body to move in these 'flowery' ways can you start to make your movements smaller and more powerful.
Using big flowery movements in a fight can get you in trouble. They are telegraphed and easily predictable. You need to make the movement smaller so that they are more hidden, compact, and fast.
I guess that is one of the problems with how people interprit kungfu. They think that the forms are directly applicable, when in reality they are methods used for training the body and mind. Fighting and training are two VERY different things.
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#182173 - 09/01/05 10:37 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Fisherman]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Some of the big flowery moves are two moves in one like the overhead hooking punch that blocks and strikes in that one move. Or the hand wave like move that us really a parry and palm strike or tiger claw to the eyes and noses. Knowing what these moves are and how to use them make them work.

When I was shown the knee strike arm break, it started with an attack to my head as I raise a arm to block, he follwed the arm up and brough it down to my chest and jumping knee strike this was 1989, it reminds me of the Muya-Thai jump knee strikes that you see in Vale Tudo today, back in 1989.

Knowing what you are doing with and how/when to use them is what makes you effective. Ken's a Bad Man. He also trained in traditional Ch'uan fa not a moderen eceltic system. Both are good if you know what you are doing, really.
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DBAckerson

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#182174 - 09/01/05 09:39 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: goedikey]
Stone Carver Offline
Thinker
Member

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 80
Loc: Dixie
Quote:

What type of kung fu are you talking about ?




I myself study Long Fist, which is what I based my theory on. And the "Flowery Moves" I refeard to for the most part are unnessisary things like performance moves from when the martial arts in China were limited to opera houses.
Also there are symbloic moves such as "Kwan Strokes His Beard" that serve no real purpose.
_________________________
“I am the MOST modest person in the world. You hear that? ME!”

Stone Carver

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#182175 - 09/02/05 08:28 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
I agree that this is a symbolic movement, but couldn't it be applied as bbrushing someone's hand away from you?
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Chris Haynes

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#182176 - 09/04/05 07:18 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
Thanks alot tookien!

Everyone brings up good points. But what someone said is very true, the reason kung fu movements (not contemp. wushu) look strange, pretty, or flashy, is for different purposes. Alot of the MMA community will say "Forms are useless" or just for "performing," but that is mostly an observation made from wushuu atheletes, or people who seem to just perform and not teach fighting aspects. But the main reason for forms are many.

First of all, each form is a "style" in its own. Each technique well hidden (remember when gong fu was outlawed) but also ingeniously designed to condition the correct muscles, teach your body to move the correct way, and develop a sense of distance and timing (usually Shaolin forms start and end at same spot). The transition from one technique to the next is highly important. They can be done fast, slow, or at the default rhythim for different purposes. IMO they should be done with as much effort as possible, otherwise there is no point (as much effort doesn't mean change speed, it only means you do it the way your taught, the best you can). You also learn how to breathe, and conserve energy the best. With all these things in mind, you should be able to generate some good power. Of course forms/techniques are only one aspect, without application, or experience, they are nothing but past times.

Arts like Taiji and bagua, look the most flowery sometimes. Because the techniques are well hidden/vague, and have pretty interesting names. The techniques are amazing, but they are used for the same purpose as forms, to develop the specific mindset and harmonize the body with the mind and spirit. From the "Zen" or "wushin" (no minded-ness), accleration is greatly increased, and using the techniques is not only easier, but almost unecessary with such heightened awareness.

While some go too far in stripping gong fu down to its basics for fighting. Others seem to go too deep into teaching how to fight with it, directly how its used in forms (deep stances etc.) Of course, in sparring and what not, the best kind of practice is the way it is taught and practiced, since it is much harder for instance, to hit somebody very fast from a med-low gong bu stancee, than from a standard standing position. Or learning how to use all the various blocks/punches successfully, without having to learn on just beginners instinct. Since eventually that will lead to a different type of more refined instinct.

You are training yourself to use things that seem different, or not as easy. So as to develop so much skill, mental, physical, and spiritual congruity, so that you won't ever have to use the advandced techniques (unlses we were in ancient china, where gong fu adepts were more common), just the direct simple ones.
_________________________
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

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#182177 - 09/09/05 05:34 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: BaguaMonk]
-orangesiscool- Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/05
Posts: 58
Loc: marysville, CA, USA
kung fu and gong fu mean different things. (please note the angry smilie) Gong fu literally means something that trancends esthetic purposes. A performance form has no "gong fu."
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I Swear By My Life And My Love Of It That I Will Never Live For The Sake Of Another Man, Nor Ask Another Man To Live For Mine.

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#182178 - 09/11/05 01:15 PM BaguaMonk [Re: Stone Carver]
tookien1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 299
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Hey BaguaMonk

I could'nt get any info on those locations about any good Pak Mei schools. I believe there are some Pak Mei schools, but if they advertise it like there is no tommorow, than don't bother. Find out from others in the MA community, or visit various Kung-fu studios, they might know.

Check out this link. If you DO find a school of Pak Mei than use this as a key reference to finding a good credible teacher. They must have found their knoweldge from some place, if it is not by any of the given names listed, then find someplace else, or just don't join at all.

http://www.pakmei.ca/genealogy.htm

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#182179 - 09/12/05 08:38 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: -orangesiscool-]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Quote:

kung fu and gong fu mean different things. (please note the angry smilie) Gong fu literally means something that trancends esthetic purposes. A performance form has no "gong fu."




Aren't you going to tell us what kung fu means then?

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#182180 - 09/12/05 01:15 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: tookien1]
7starstudent Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 2
I am actually having a hard time thinking of many kung fu styles that have been modified for sport/competition fighting (other than flashy modern "wushu"). All of the styles that I have been exposed to don’t compete in sparring or point sparring competitions because the rules would tend to inhibit many of the techniques traditionally used in the style (not that there isn’t a time or place for competitions).

Of course, I am only a beginner, and I have only had experience with Hung Gar, Tai Chi, and 7 Star Praying Mantis kung fu. So let it be duly noted that my experiences are limited. It should also be duly noted that I’m probably a little bit biased...

I've been taught (and have experienced) that some of the "flowery" movements in kung fu are rather practical in a real world situation. For instance, the basic low horse stance incorporated could be viewed as "too slow" and "impractical for fighting" by some. But the same low stance is really amazing at closing distance and destroying your opponent's base, or for throwing your opponent, or simply for stepping in and under his/her high kick or punch and attacking low (groin, knees, etc)... Also, that same low, flowery stance provides the most powerful punches. What’s interesting (to me anyway) is that these same applications of the basic low horse stance are not permitted in most point sparring competitions. So, in that context, the deep stance could be seen as a slow and pointless technique.

After previous training in Hung Gar and Tai Chi, I have been training in Praying Mantis kung fu for about a year now. I have found this style of kung fu to be anything but flowery in its application. It is vicious and fast (and, for that matter, extremely low…). I am extremely pleased the practical nature of the fight training I am receiving, which covers everything from striking to grappling and joint locking. My training is almost exclusively centered on reality based fighting. I do have to admit that I thought some of the forms seemed incredibly impractical when I watched from the sidelines, until Sifu showed me the applications. When I say he “showed me”, I mean he knocked me around a bit before dumping my ass on the floor – in a very practical and straightforward manner.

Like some of the other posters here, I believe that the "flowery" movements have a great deal of practicality; but they take time and dedication to learn to use effectively. This, of course, is discounting the stuff used in modern wushu, the stunts used in the movies, and the flashiness developed in the Peking Opera.

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#182181 - 09/22/05 09:29 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: 7starstudent]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
Of course flowery movements have great amount of practicality. Only flaw I seen in low deep stances is when people pose in them, or use them in the wrong ways.

In fact, in every altercation I've been in, low deep stances are perhaps the most useful thing I've ever come across. For rooting purposes, and each one has its strengths (and weaknesses), therefore shifting from one to the other, or simply learning how to use it to retreat or press on your opponent has amazing qualities. Stances are used transitionally, and for the most part very useful. I had someone much bigger trying to push and tackle me, and because of both a low horse, and gong bu sance, he could not even get one foot off the ground, not even with two arms. I could also not be tripped ju-jitsu style/Judo style because of the horse stance. Add a little bit of Taiji sensitivity/redirecting to it, and its quite easy to use it to your advantage.

If you manage to get to the point where low stances are easy, then you have MUCH greater advantage over anything, in a high stance, you have amazing mobility and springiniess/strength, and in low stances you still have that, but are able to make yourself smaller and create leverage and technical advantages.They also give you devastating kicks, greater agility, mobility, strength, endurance.

All "flowery" movements have very practical, and sometimes quite deadly applications. Are they necessary? Nowdays..not always.But nevertheless, amazing to learn from.
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#182182 - 10/20/05 06:38 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: BaguaMonk]
NottaMaster Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 2
I would still agree that some of the portions of the forms will never be directly used for "practical" fighting purposes.... But so much of our training is essential for proper physical conditioning. And isn't physical conditioning one of the most practical aspects of the art?

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#182183 - 10/20/05 09:02 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: NottaMaster]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
yes it is.
But all parts of the forms have an application.
Does it have to be a direct application?

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#182184 - 10/20/05 09:11 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: NottaMaster]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
In Kung Fu forms should be used to build the body first and fighting is secondary. When you do a "flowery movement" in a form that helps stretch the muscles and tendons throughout the entire body. Look at some of the most common injuries in sports like a torn ACL. Todays athletes build so much muscle but neglect all the torque and tension it put's on their tendons which are unable to handle the muscle's new strength and give out.

Doing forms develop the gung fu body. It cannot be achieved by lifting weights and running instead. Forms have a very special purpose for the body ,mind and spirit and to conentrate on the "fighting movements" in forms one is never able to see their true value.

Kevin

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#182185 - 10/20/05 09:25 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: pathfinder7195]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I agree with that but I would even take it a step further and say that the movements also aid in muscle memory. The fact that you coordinate your limbs to do the form in the most balanced way possible then you are training your self to achieve that balance in your fighting. Like a lot of people have said, a real fight does not look like there is much 'form' involved, but that is one of the advantages that studying the patterns gives to your fighting and your training. It Makes your muscles be more coordinated draw more accurate paths to the target. IMO

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#182186 - 10/23/05 09:23 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: MAGr]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Very correct MAGr. I was always told you do forms to become formless. It is impressive to watch people do movements that are in the forms but have no set sequence and it looks like they had been working on that "form" for years but in reality they just made it up.

Kevin

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#182187 - 10/26/05 03:08 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: pathfinder7195]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
well i don't think you do forms to be formless at all in fact i think is has the opposite effect but of course it's my opinion and i'm not trying to change anyone just voice it. but i'm really agaisnt what forms do to people they confine people, and seperate people, retrict the body's natural movement. they inprint a certain way of thinking and moving and says that this is the way but it's just not right to me. and plz read all of what i say before you start shooting spiteful remarks at me. see i am not against forms completely i'm just against how their tought. they teach forms as a stale and unchangging law not making or improving their forms or the way they practice them things can always be improved no matter how old they are. and also because many teach forms as if that's how you should fight but i don't think that's how they was intended to be used at all. i think forms were created basicly to be a simple way to pass down a martial art but many people use their applications like the forms them selves and i just don't think that's how their surpose to be used. you cannot be formless if your bound by a set of rules and set movements and retrictions but i say this all in good meaning. i don't say this to change you or make you upset i am just offering my opinion and hope that everyone will at least consider what i say because if you don't even consider what i say that to me proves that you have become a product of a stale and retricted way of combat that even now has disturbed your reasoning and logic. so i mean no offence plz believe me when i say this i really don't i am simply offering my own personal thought on martial arts. if you take this the wrong way it proves that your form has confined your thought process and seperated people also. and btw even tho it should go without saying i'll say it anyway that this post only applies to where it is true not to people that try to improve what they learn so i do not mean everyone.

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#182188 - 10/26/05 08:23 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: etaks86]
pathfinder7195 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
I have to diasgree. Forms are for health not fighting if you are studying forms to become a fighter you are on the wrong path. What I meant by being "formless" is that you are not "restricted" in any manner. You also become "formless" so you gung fu does not become stale. Again, I do not take a movement from a form and teach it the excact same way for a SD situation. Why is that so many people assume that if you do forms than it must mean you teach SD dircetly from them?
I teach forms for health and to help build the "gung fu body". I do not take movement for movement from a form and apply it to SD. You must break away from pre-arranged movements(forms) so you do not become stale.

Kevin

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#182189 - 11/05/05 10:35 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: pathfinder7195]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
The form done by two people should not look the same, as long as they have advanced enough. Obviously it depends on the structure and mobility of the individual about what exact path the tan sau carves when extended, but tha does not mean that you can just throw your hand out there without thought to the centre line and elbow alignement. If you do that then there is a very good chance (as I found out recently) that the tan sau wont work.

I saw recently a technique that stemmed from a form, which was a way of controlling someone. Its not important which one it was. When I saw the teacher do it he was holding/controlling the individual without much effort. When the student rtried to do it to another student, he failed, even though he did the exact same thing. Why did it fail? Because the elbow was 3 centimeters of position, and so the lock didnt work. Now how do you expect to learn the exact position and remind your muscles constantly about the positioning of the basic movements? through the form.

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#182190 - 11/05/05 02:20 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: MAGr]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
If you want to learn to fight.. then you must fight allot.

Forms are nice .. but they can't teach you to fight. NOT EVEN 2,3,4,5,6 person forms

I heard that Ip man would say the only way to learn to swim is to get in the water..

Forms are GREAT, most people do not know what they mean.
forms are a way of passing information on to new generations, and for remmbering ideas.

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#182191 - 11/13/05 09:05 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: monji112000]
jack187 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 4
Loc: Charleston, SC Only the great...
You cannot simply say form will not make you a better fighter. Forms train the body. However, if you think your gunna beat some ass just because you know forms your mistaken.
The only way to become a great fighter is to spar, full contact.
As for gong fu in the streets, most the people you would be defending yourself against in a real life situation are not martial artitists.

from practicing kung fu for a while i am confident that i could defend myself. If your questioning whether or not your kung fu is street applicable, then you need a new instructor because there are many principles that are just nasty moves.

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#182192 - 11/14/05 06:23 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
It must also be noted, that in forms, even in internal arts, the techniques/applications (beyond physical conditioning, mind frame, mindset,timing,footwork etc.)that they are to teach an "idea" or principle. Nowdays, we never need to use gong fu in the way we use it in forms, or even sparring routines, because no one fights like we do. So the co-ordination, mindset, intention, speed/power, and the "idea" is more than enough to end a confrontation.

Also in various martial arts Breath is the most important aspect in forms. In Shaolin, the chi gung in forms is localized in the limbs and what not, while in the internal (taiji, bagua xingyi, liuehebafa, etc.) is awareness of chi in the whole body in a completely relaxed state.
_________________________
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

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#182193 - 11/18/05 11:09 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
darkfist Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 9
Loc: OHIO USA
To begin with many people never learn how to trulu fight in all styles. In fact you probably know a good amount of students from every school that might last 30 seconds in a real fight. This is not a style separation.It is a separation of fighters to non fighters of alpha to betas. Please do not fall into the gap of foolish enough to beleive that Chinesemartial arts is flowery. At least fight a mantis first. Maybe watch one would be better. at least safer.
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#182194 - 11/21/05 11:30 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: monji112000]
Snakeineaglesnes Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/21/05
Posts: 14
I have to agree with monji. I myself study Eagleclaw Kung fu. now for the forms discussion, In my style every form builds u for the next. For instance the first form is Power Fist, which is kind of flowery, is ment to help build sholder strength. Sholder strenth is very nessesary for strong effective catch and holds. Next form would be quickfist which teaches how to coordinate punches and kicks Simutaneously etc. So u see they do have a perpose. (in my style at least.) Now, what all u have to realize is that u can learn all the forms in the world and still not be able to fight. there are hidden teachniques in all forms but the novice I wont see them. just think of this. Has anyone ever bought a car and after buying noticed a billion of your same car in your city. but before hand u never really saw them? Same principles with techniques. My Style is known for its famous 108 locking techniques, basically 108 ways to break bones, rip tendons, tear ligaments etc. So we practice endless amounts of techniques in class during the week. When fight night arrives, we have alot of new techniques to try out with our opponent. It is important for variety. another thing I noticed is the way people train techniques and Spar, its not practical for actual combat. when you practice teachniques do them with your opponent fast strong and on point & have ur opponent try to counter. Then both of u learn, one learns how to counter the other learns what to do when countered. THE MORE U SPAR THE CLOSER THE DANGER ZONE GETS TO UR BODY.(the closer u let an attack get before countering) This allows u to make ur opponent fully extend and dedicate to there technique so u can do ur damage. So u see it does work for street combat. What street fighter u know never throws that hard fully dedicated one hitter quitter! A person is at there weakest point when fully extended. Sorry guys got carried away. Try Fighting an Eagle Claw Practitioner .

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#182195 - 11/27/05 02:39 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: BaguaMonk]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I think part of the problem is that many people don't actually know what they are looking at when they see KF and just suppose it is flowery cos it aint boxing.

A sifu in London once showed me a hand position where the fingers are together and the wrist bent (a bit like a swan-neck). He asked, "Can you think of over a dozen uses for this position, cos there are..." (trap, strike, block et al)
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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#182196 - 11/27/05 03:55 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: trevek]
Immortal_Highlander Offline
Member Banned

Registered: 01/30/05
Posts: 81
Loc: Boston, Ma
I know all of you chinese stylists will be mad... but kung fu in it's modern state is mostly innefective and too diluted to be of any reliability. It looks great in movies, where fights last ten minutes, but is utter nonsense in this brutal world of our lord.
The only effective cast of gung-fu that I have encountered is wu-shu... perhaps ancient shaolin as well. Even Bruce
Lee understood just how much nonsense has pervaded the chinese schools.
There is simply too much fluff and not enough substance in most modern kung fu. So stylists beware... your Japamerican counterparts along with S. Americans, have continued in the original kung fu tradition...we take what works and scrap everything else. That should be the goal of all martial artists.

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#182197 - 11/27/05 07:21 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Immortal_Highlander]
1neikoot Offline
Member

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Candy Land
Quote:

I know all of you chinese stylists will be mad... but kung fu in it's modern state is mostly innefective and too diluted to be of any reliability. It looks great in movies, where fights last ten minutes, but is utter nonsense in this brutal world of our lord.
The only effective cast of gung-fu that I have encountered is wu-shu... perhaps ancient shaolin as well. Even Bruce
Lee understood just how much nonsense has pervaded the chinese schools.
There is simply too much fluff and not enough substance in most modern kung fu. So stylists beware... your Japamerican counterparts along with S. Americans, have continued in the original kung fu tradition...we take what works and scrap everything else. That should be the goal of all martial artists.




Immortal_Highlander

I can see you are a banned member, if your not, you should be. The reason behind your ignorance is because you yourself watch too many movies where fights last "ten" minutes.

You have proven yourself to be more deluded then every anti-TMA'st I have ever witnessed. You claim Wushu is the most effective kung-fu style you witnessed, when in fact it is more of a performing art. Obviously you know nothing about Chinese kung-fu and your not qualified to give any statements whatsoever due to your limited knowledge and experience.

Secondly, you state "Even Bruce Lee understood just how much nonsense has pervaded the chinese schools". What about the fact he avoided confrontations with other Masters in the Chinese arts? Read a detailed book about him and maybe you'll actually know something. By the way, Bruce Lee was actually referring to ALL MA'ts in general, not just Chinese Kung-fu you idiot.
In conclusion, you know nothing about real Kung-fu, you take it as what it is in hollywood movies, I don't blame you, because most people are like that. Granted there are many McDojo's that are unqualified, but judging all kung-fu to be innecfective is a big mistake.

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#182198 - 11/27/05 09:46 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: 1neikoot]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
1neikoot,

Immortal_Highlander has been banned. Some steps are best not followed.

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#182199 - 12/07/05 07:19 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: eyrie]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
Well Bruce Lee did make alot of good points, and that is that alot of TMA'ists, and even so called "masters" are disillusioned.They either rely too much on their structure, or don't rely on it enough. You must find a balance in everything you do, and when you train, train for REAL. Don't just go through the movements, and think your style will save you when the day comes.

If you want to get the most out of your style, train with the right mindset and intensity. But in order to do so, you must be familiar with what human agression is, and what fighting is actually like outside the classroom, where people probably aren't trying to seriously hurt you.

An old teacher of mine once tried something, we were doing tumbling and falling drills with a sword. He got out a cheap wushu sword and swiped it at our legs, head, body etc. and we had to either jump, duck, get in push up position, and get back up etc. But most of us got hit because it just wasn't "dangerous" He then got out a real sword, with real weight, but perhaps not sharpened.All of a sudden our performance improved, everyone was jumping and dodging as if their life depended on it.

Sometimes, even in internal styles. People "relax" so much that they don't sense or know how to acknowledge danger and when to strike. Some just see fighting as a passive thing. But the truth is that it is too much "yin," you have to balance that with Yang and know when to attack/counter. And not just in the "im going to push you away" sense, like many teachers demonstrate, but in actual strikes, throws, kicks, or joint locks/limb breaks.Taiji is a fighting art, not a pushing art. There are plenty of punches and kicks, even leaps in the art (at least in Chen). And yet all teachers do is demonstrate their incredible push hands skill. A real punch is very hard to stick and adhere to unless you made contact with it before the attack was initiated.

Even in gong fu classes nowdays, I see people able to do some amazing athletic feats, and even hit targets hard. But they have no clue as to what fighting really is. When they do forms they go through the motions, with no understanding of what the form is either for, or putting themselves in the right mindset. Some do the form perfectly, but there is no "heart" or no real power.
_________________________
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

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#182200 - 12/14/05 08:47 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: BaguaMonk]
Guy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana USA
I wonder if those who doubt themselves in a real combat situation are the same that find weight training an act of condescension?

Guy

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#182201 - 12/16/05 02:47 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Guy]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
I study at a long fist Mcdojo - I study there because it is close to my house, and they have classes two days a week in MMA, which I am intersted in. I have stopped going to the long fist classes.


I have seen my schools sifu in action, and he is very very impressive. he is about 130 pounds, but he has huge power and speed, and he has a vast arsinal of weapons. although he can do all sorts of "flowery" stuff, in most situations he just uses a few simple moves.

at any given time, there may be 50 or more students in the school, who are doing nothing more than basic forms. you can get to a black sash in two years, without ever sparing or actually hitting a person.

this was what threw me off, and why I stopped going to the long fist classes. but now I see, that there are also about 5 students at any time, black sash students, who are the schools real students - they have gotten to the point where they ca really study well and move forward.

I guess what I am trying to say is that in a lot of martial arts, you can get to a pretty good point quickly. in kung fu is seems that you can get farther, but it will take you years and years.

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#182202 - 01/28/06 08:16 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: globetrotter]
Guy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana USA
One street fighting combination I like is to telegraph a wide right hand roundhouse punch, and then when they try to block it, quickly pull it back transfering the momentom to the left hand and hit them with a left jab, they don’t even see it coming. :-)

I can also do another version of it using kicking techniques by starting out with a right roundhouse kick, then just before making contact with their block, I yank it back transfering the momentum of the right foot into the left foot and kick them with a left front snap kick.

You have to be very careful doing this because you have so much power in the front snap kick that you can seriously injure someone with it. You also have to careful landing back on the right foot when you yank it back because if you hit the floor with it too hard, you could injure your Achilles tendon. Been there, done that.

Guy

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#182203 - 02/05/06 07:53 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Guy]
Guy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Indiana USA
You guys might not believe this but I kid you not, there are people out there that can beat me. One time I met such a person. He was bigger then me by about 50 pounds. I seen how he fights, he was a grabbling ground fighter. I don't have much experience ground fighting like that and he was really good but he kept wanting to spar me and I didn't really want to do it. Well one day he really irritated me and I finally said I would spar him but I don’t have time to do it today so I will do it tomorrow. We was in a park when all this took place so I said I’ll be here tomorrow.

Will I don’t know about how it is in your part of the world but around here where I live in the woods there is a plant called poison oak. If you just brush against it even the slightest bit, about four or five days later your skin will break out in blisters and it will drive you crazy with the itching. So first I put some poison ivy cream on my skin to help protect me from it then I fasten my undershirt to my pants with safety pins and put on heavy clothing, then I went out into the woods and spent about an hour rubbing poison oak against all the parts of my body that I know he would grab. I made sure I got a lot of poison oak on my shirt on the forearm area. Then I was ready.

Well at first we sat around talking and then he said, ok are you ready to spar me. I didn’t want to look eager so I said, I don’t know, I know you will beat me because I’m not good in your style. He knew that since we were just playing around I wouldn’t use a felony technique against him. (Felony techniques are what I call the techniques that will land you in jail for a long time, like ripping a person’s arm out of their shoulder socket.) So when we sparred. Sure enough he kept getting me on the ground and made me tap out. I kept saying, well let me try something else. And we did it again and again. I tried as best I could to defend myself when I was on the ground but I was working more on getting poison oak on him then trying to beat him at his own game by doing things like trying to get him off me by pushing against his face with my forearms dragging my forearms across his bare belly and wherever I could see some bare skin. I finally said, ok, I had enough. You beat me fair and square. So we sat back down on the picnic table and he was laughing about how easy it was to beat me. I told him, yeah, you got the last laugh all right. Then I went home and soaked myself in the bathtub for about an hour scrubbing my skin with comet.

Poison oak doesn’t take affect for about four or five days but from what I heard he had to go to the hospital. Also apparently he didn’t wash his hands before he went to the bathroom. And he also got it on his girlfriend. He didn’t know what was going on with him. I was planning on telling him I did it but when I heard how bad he got it I decided maybe I better not. I think he kind of figured it out though because he kept looking at me funny like he was thinking maybe it was me, or maybe it was someone else he was wrestling around with.

There is an old saying that oh is so true, “He who laughs last laughs best.”

Guy

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#182204 - 02/05/06 12:04 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Guy]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Maybe there should be a special section of the forum dedicated to poorly written fiction.
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#182205 - 02/05/06 12:35 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
Dudley32 Offline
master of disaster

Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 482
Loc: Indiana
Quote:

Many people say that gong-fu is to flowery an ineffective. And, for the most part this is true. But, if one looks back far enought almost all gong-fu systems were developed for actual combat. I,ve theorized that if one could get back to basics and strip away all the changes that have occured over the years(such as the flashy moves added by the Pi King opera)the systems become drasticaly more effective. Just something to chew on, I'd love to hear other peoples success stories in the future.




Wouldnt that basically be what Jeet Kune Do is? thats exactly what Bruce lee did to gong fu.

Matt
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Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect Practice makes perfect.

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#182206 - 03/03/06 11:51 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
OneInchPunchMaster Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 101
Loc: England
I dont see anything wrong with Gung fu. What flashy moves? Whats wrong with doing a Si Lum Tao(hope i said it right) in Wing Chun to Block? Its probably one of the most effective blocks. People say Gung fu is flashy because they only see the forms, sure, the forms are flashy, but the techniques are not.


Edited by OneInchPunchMaster (03/03/06 11:52 PM)

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