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#182186 - 10/23/05 09:23 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: MAGr]
pathfinder7195 Offline

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
Very correct MAGr. I was always told you do forms to become formless. It is impressive to watch people do movements that are in the forms but have no set sequence and it looks like they had been working on that "form" for years but in reality they just made it up.


#182187 - 10/26/05 03:08 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: pathfinder7195]
etaks86 Offline

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
well i don't think you do forms to be formless at all in fact i think is has the opposite effect but of course it's my opinion and i'm not trying to change anyone just voice it. but i'm really agaisnt what forms do to people they confine people, and seperate people, retrict the body's natural movement. they inprint a certain way of thinking and moving and says that this is the way but it's just not right to me. and plz read all of what i say before you start shooting spiteful remarks at me. see i am not against forms completely i'm just against how their tought. they teach forms as a stale and unchangging law not making or improving their forms or the way they practice them things can always be improved no matter how old they are. and also because many teach forms as if that's how you should fight but i don't think that's how they was intended to be used at all. i think forms were created basicly to be a simple way to pass down a martial art but many people use their applications like the forms them selves and i just don't think that's how their surpose to be used. you cannot be formless if your bound by a set of rules and set movements and retrictions but i say this all in good meaning. i don't say this to change you or make you upset i am just offering my opinion and hope that everyone will at least consider what i say because if you don't even consider what i say that to me proves that you have become a product of a stale and retricted way of combat that even now has disturbed your reasoning and logic. so i mean no offence plz believe me when i say this i really don't i am simply offering my own personal thought on martial arts. if you take this the wrong way it proves that your form has confined your thought process and seperated people also. and btw even tho it should go without saying i'll say it anyway that this post only applies to where it is true not to people that try to improve what they learn so i do not mean everyone.

#182188 - 10/26/05 08:23 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: etaks86]
pathfinder7195 Offline

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 336
Loc: T.C Michigan, U.S
I have to diasgree. Forms are for health not fighting if you are studying forms to become a fighter you are on the wrong path. What I meant by being "formless" is that you are not "restricted" in any manner. You also become "formless" so you gung fu does not become stale. Again, I do not take a movement from a form and teach it the excact same way for a SD situation. Why is that so many people assume that if you do forms than it must mean you teach SD dircetly from them?
I teach forms for health and to help build the "gung fu body". I do not take movement for movement from a form and apply it to SD. You must break away from pre-arranged movements(forms) so you do not become stale.


#182189 - 11/05/05 10:35 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: pathfinder7195]
MAGr Offline

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
The form done by two people should not look the same, as long as they have advanced enough. Obviously it depends on the structure and mobility of the individual about what exact path the tan sau carves when extended, but tha does not mean that you can just throw your hand out there without thought to the centre line and elbow alignement. If you do that then there is a very good chance (as I found out recently) that the tan sau wont work.

I saw recently a technique that stemmed from a form, which was a way of controlling someone. Its not important which one it was. When I saw the teacher do it he was holding/controlling the individual without much effort. When the student rtried to do it to another student, he failed, even though he did the exact same thing. Why did it fail? Because the elbow was 3 centimeters of position, and so the lock didnt work. Now how do you expect to learn the exact position and remind your muscles constantly about the positioning of the basic movements? through the form.

#182190 - 11/05/05 02:20 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: MAGr]
monji112000 Offline

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
If you want to learn to fight.. then you must fight allot.

Forms are nice .. but they can't teach you to fight. NOT EVEN 2,3,4,5,6 person forms

I heard that Ip man would say the only way to learn to swim is to get in the water..

Forms are GREAT, most people do not know what they mean.
forms are a way of passing information on to new generations, and for remmbering ideas.

#182191 - 11/13/05 09:05 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: monji112000]
jack187 Offline

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 4
Loc: Charleston, SC Only the great...
You cannot simply say form will not make you a better fighter. Forms train the body. However, if you think your gunna beat some ass just because you know forms your mistaken.
The only way to become a great fighter is to spar, full contact.
As for gong fu in the streets, most the people you would be defending yourself against in a real life situation are not martial artitists.

from practicing kung fu for a while i am confident that i could defend myself. If your questioning whether or not your kung fu is street applicable, then you need a new instructor because there are many principles that are just nasty moves.

#182192 - 11/14/05 06:23 AM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
BaguaMonk Offline

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
It must also be noted, that in forms, even in internal arts, the techniques/applications (beyond physical conditioning, mind frame, mindset,timing,footwork etc.)that they are to teach an "idea" or principle. Nowdays, we never need to use gong fu in the way we use it in forms, or even sparring routines, because no one fights like we do. So the co-ordination, mindset, intention, speed/power, and the "idea" is more than enough to end a confrontation.

Also in various martial arts Breath is the most important aspect in forms. In Shaolin, the chi gung in forms is localized in the limbs and what not, while in the internal (taiji, bagua xingyi, liuehebafa, etc.) is awareness of chi in the whole body in a completely relaxed state.
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

#182193 - 11/18/05 11:09 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: Stone Carver]
darkfist Offline

Registered: 10/10/05
Posts: 9
To begin with many people never learn how to trulu fight in all styles. In fact you probably know a good amount of students from every school that might last 30 seconds in a real fight. This is not a style separation.It is a separation of fighters to non fighters of alpha to betas. Please do not fall into the gap of foolish enough to beleive that Chinesemartial arts is flowery. At least fight a mantis first. Maybe watch one would be better. at least safer.

#182194 - 11/21/05 11:30 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: monji112000]
Snakeineaglesnes Offline

Registered: 11/21/05
Posts: 14
I have to agree with monji. I myself study Eagleclaw Kung fu. now for the forms discussion, In my style every form builds u for the next. For instance the first form is Power Fist, which is kind of flowery, is ment to help build sholder strength. Sholder strenth is very nessesary for strong effective catch and holds. Next form would be quickfist which teaches how to coordinate punches and kicks Simutaneously etc. So u see they do have a perpose. (in my style at least.) Now, what all u have to realize is that u can learn all the forms in the world and still not be able to fight. there are hidden teachniques in all forms but the novice I wont see them. just think of this. Has anyone ever bought a car and after buying noticed a billion of your same car in your city. but before hand u never really saw them? Same principles with techniques. My Style is known for its famous 108 locking techniques, basically 108 ways to break bones, rip tendons, tear ligaments etc. So we practice endless amounts of techniques in class during the week. When fight night arrives, we have alot of new techniques to try out with our opponent. It is important for variety. another thing I noticed is the way people train techniques and Spar, its not practical for actual combat. when you practice teachniques do them with your opponent fast strong and on point & have ur opponent try to counter. Then both of u learn, one learns how to counter the other learns what to do when countered. THE MORE U SPAR THE CLOSER THE DANGER ZONE GETS TO UR BODY.(the closer u let an attack get before countering) This allows u to make ur opponent fully extend and dedicate to there technique so u can do ur damage. So u see it does work for street combat. What street fighter u know never throws that hard fully dedicated one hitter quitter! A person is at there weakest point when fully extended. Sorry guys got carried away. Try Fighting an Eagle Claw Practitioner .

#182195 - 11/27/05 02:39 PM Re: Gong-Fu in the streets [Re: BaguaMonk]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I think part of the problem is that many people don't actually know what they are looking at when they see KF and just suppose it is flowery cos it aint boxing.

A sifu in London once showed me a hand position where the fingers are together and the wrist bent (a bit like a swan-neck). He asked, "Can you think of over a dozen uses for this position, cos there are..." (trap, strike, block et al)
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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