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#181962 - 09/06/05 07:27 PM Re: DKI = Ryukyu Kempo? [Re: Raul Perez]
Ice Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/26/04
Posts: 19
Loc: Slovenia, Europe
Raul,

What is tuite? Locks are locks, whether you call them tuite, china na, ... They are in any art, ju jutsu, judo, aikido, daito ryu, Silat, kali, Arnis, kuntao, ... Dillman never claimed he was teaching Oyata's Tuite. He only says with respect, that he was first taught tuite type applications from Oyata. He could have taught and sell the art under any name, but kept the name to show respect to where his knowledge originated. He writes that in his third book.

He went on from there by studying with prof. Remy Presas, Wally Jay and many others. Have you ever seen Filipino type joint locking or flow of the Kali – Silat empty hands? If you haven’t i highly recommend you to do so. You will find many similarities to your Tuite as well as many highly advanced drills and methods, including anti chinna, lock flow, locks using weapons, foot trapping, energy drills... Prof. Jay's detailed joint locks, chokes and throws are most impressive too.
Yes, Dillman did first learn the concept of understanding the tuite found within katas from Oyata. But he wasn’t a novice in kata bunkai before meeting him. He was a long time and very successful student of Harry Smith, who is one of the highest ranked and most senior Isshinryu practitioner in the world. Isshinryu founder, T. Shimabuku did know his bunkai, which maybe wasn't as detailed and complex as Oyata’s, but still very effective. They say, it was developed for ‘’jungle warfare’’ during the 2nd world war...

By studying with the above masters (Presas, Jay), he learned to understand tuite – chin-na even deeper, since those arts have way more detailed knowledge of joint locking, choking and throwing than any Okinawan art. He used Oyata’s concept to find kata explanations by studying Arnis and Jujitsu, creating a very effective system. Later he developed a theory on tuite , that allows anyone understanding it, implementing grappling concepts of any martial art into his system.

All the martial arts trace their roots in China. So to understand karate, we have to look there to really understand it. Some of the ''original'' arts, that have forms, which still maintained their combat applications would be Weng Chun and Wing Chun. There is also Kuntao (similar to silat and arnis empty hands), which is a different pronunciation of the same characters as Kempo(Bob Orlando:1996). Look at their quans, jurus and their applications. Moves are similar, but the combat applications are very different and way more effective then most ''traditional'' Okinawans. If they are better, we use them. They come from the same source. Even Chojun Miyagi and many other old Okinawan masters traveled to China to study there. So should we and Dillman highly supports that. This is why he works and invites masters from many different martial arts. This is how we learn and expand our understanding of martial arts, particularly Okinawan karate – Ryukyu Kempo. In many ways i see his views similar to Bruce Lee's Jeet kune do.


As far as katas go, GMD allows any advanced practitioner, joining DKI, to keep his original art while adding kyusho and tuite concepts to it. He sees no reason why someone should switch to ''original'' Ryukyu Kempo katas, since the concept of tuite can easily be adopted to any kata. Personally i believe its even better to use ancient Okinawan katas, since they contain way more ''original'' information then the Itosu made Pinans series, which were actually developed for kids. Most DKI's still learn these katas and teach them. I learned all the Ryukyu Kempo katas, but prefer to teach Isshinryu katas to adults and Pinans to kids. Isshinryu katas are some of the oldest Okinawan katas (as taught by Kyan) and contain much more detailed moves to use kyusho and tuite then Pinans.

So everyone in DKI has to do their katas, basics, sparring (bogu, full contact with no protection, point, weapons), weapons katas, yakusoku kumite, basic exercises or whatever their ''style'' requires...
Basic kyusho and Tuite requirements and applications are described in GMD books and videos and give more then enough basic knowledge and guidance to instructors and practitioners. Each member and instructor is then required to continue his studies within his system, based on the published knowledge and the continually developing knowledge and research guided by GMD.

So it’s a complete misunderstanding and malicious propaganda when people say that DKI practitioners only do stage KO's or NTKO. We do this at seminars to test new theories. We don’t need to go there for GMD to perfect our shuto block but rather to share and test our advanced research. Then its back to sweating at dojo!


Dillman is not trying to develop blind followers, but people, who seriously study their arts and martial arts per se. As Victor Smith wrote in his great article ''The Complete Tatsuo Shimabuku'', the complete organization of knowledge and progression in karate was imported to Okinawa from Japan. '' Thus the teaching template Shimabuku Sensei observed most likely was that of instructing your students so that they would go out on their own. There does not seem to be a regulating mechanism to pass along changes or control the 'correct form' of the system''.
IMHO Dillman is trying to do the same. This is why i respect his method so much! Some people have already gone on their own. Others will stay with him, to enjoy unlimited expressions of martial arts for many years to come.



Rather then having nonsense discussions of whose Tuite or art is better, lets rather discuss some serious bunkai and maybe compare different explanations, drills and fighting methods within different groups. Then these forums will finally be productive rather then a bunch of BS written by ignorant people.
I have my highest respect for Oyata and would love to study with him or his students some day. Politics is BS and only about the money! I am here for the ART!

Borut


Edited by Ice (09/06/05 07:46 PM)

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#181963 - 09/06/05 11:36 PM Re: DKI = Ryukyu Kempo? [Re: Ice]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Ice,

I have to be honest when I wrote my study on Shimabuku Tatsuo's instructors back in 1999 or so, the last thing on my mind was trying to draw a parallel that could apply to George.

I haven't revisited that piece in years. In general I think its ok, but my understanding has changed a great deal in the last 6 or so years too.

I think its more accurate to suggest today, where the Japanese really developed the karate organization, and perhaps that development was eventually paralled in Okinawa in the 50's onward, I think a stronger case could be made that Isshinryu's founder didn't follow that path.

He just taught, and a great many of his short term students spent the rest of their lives pursuing Isshinryu.

Not being in the DKI, and not sure what it really does, it's impossible for me to draw a link to how karate developed in Japan.

In large part, becuase they did not take outsiders (very often except perhaps in the early days of the 20's and 30's) So I doubt the analogy applies to George.

BTW I don't mean any instult, becuse I have known him personally and except for public politeness, I prefer not to accept anyone is a Master, Grand Master, Shihan or whatever. I consider those distinctions rather useless, when all that matters is being a real person. But that's my idiosyncrocy.

As I said this was the last analogy I ever expected.

Perhaps I should rewrite my findings.... perhaps not and just re-think them for myself.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#181964 - 09/07/05 02:59 PM Re: DKI = Ryukyu Kempo? [Re: Ice]
Ice Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/26/04
Posts: 19
Loc: Slovenia, Europe
Victor,

Do you think George Bernard Shaw was thinking about fighting when he wrote: ''Beware of false knowledge; it's more dangerous then ignoranc,'' yet, it can very well be applied to fighting too .

But correct me if i am wrong. Why i used the comparison to your article was because the way I understood it, was that master T. Shimabuku and master Kyan before him taught their students how to catch fish rather then only giving them the fish. Students were taught to understand karate and continue developing it by themselves without the constant supervision, thus ‘’going on their own’’. Students might have changed some techniques because of their individual understanding of the art and not because of sloppiness or ignorance. In the past the art was never fully organized, thus permitting the students to adopt what was useful for them, rather to blindly follow someone else’s path their whole life. Indonesian and Filipino systems followed the same path and were never fully organised in the past. Then people such as Remy Presas, Dan Inosanto, Leo Gaje, Victor de Thouars and other still loosely, to mentain its development, ''organised'' the knowledge in recent decades.

GMD method of teaching and in some way his path is similar to the one I understood from your article.
He is giving his students concepts rather then strict, ''only this is correct'' curriculum on how techniques can be taught and performed. People who study with GMD can then use, search and adopt the idea to any martial art. He lets anyone interpret his method to suit their purse in the martial arts as well as fit it within their individual style.
There are no secrets in DKI and anyone willing to participate is welcome which is different to Japanese gajin approach. You may say its only because of money but only trough exposure to so many martial artists, GMD is able to find new talent, some of whom has contributed vast amount of knowledge and pushed research and interest in a new direction. Though he is the head figure in the organization , he is always ready to listen to what other people have to say.
Principles that work are universal within all the martial arts. Kyusho, tuite, kiai, HAPV, centerline, biomechanical, triangle point and psychological (verbal attacks, body alarm reaction,…) theories are the same, no matter the art we study. Everyone should pay regard to them if they are interested into realistic self defense. I first learned this from GMD. Later from many others too. Interesting is that most of these people studied with GMD at some time of their life but later found their own path and interpretation…

So the more we know, the more the techniques and practice methods will change. The art that doesn’t change is a dead, useless art. Its only a folklore. The highly effective methods of Okinawan karate, can only be used to their devastating full potential if they are liberated from the rigid interpretations that have frozen the art in place. The art is not about specific combinations of movements but rather the concepts and methods behind the movements. This is why DKI Ryukyu Kempo, the way I understand it, is not ‘’traditional’’ nor is it intended to be. It is instead, a natural and significant evolution of technique, based on the original fighting spirit and combat focus of the Okinawan martial arts. Just my oppinion though.
Those people that are more interested into genealogies then real fighting methods will find this blasphemous, but i guess we study martial arts for different reasons. Some are trying to become scholars, others historians, others, including myself, fighters.


If, because of the language barrier, i misinterpreted the idea of your article, i apologize. Maybe it was a wrong example. I hope I made my intention clear this time.


Maybe, many of the DKI opposers should look beyond to what they see with their naked eye and the image they have created in their minds. They will find a great man and a great teacher, who wants his students to find interest in karate their whole life, no matter the age or physical abilities. I don’t necessary agree with everything he does or how he presents some things, but I find his passion for MA and to break the barriers of rigid minds very inspiring.



P.S. In person, i call GMD George. But when i write about someone in public, i believe its polite to address them by a title. I am not their peer and they deserve respect for the contribution they gave to martial arts.

Thank you,
Borut


Edited by Ice (09/07/05 05:11 PM)

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#181965 - 06/29/08 06:43 PM Re: DKI = Ryukyu Kempo? [Re: Raul Perez]
whitetigerschool Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 15
To begin with, no DKI does not equal Ryukyu Kempo, but it does fall under that heading quite nicely. I used to be VERY heavily involved in both and while George Dillman openly called what he teaches Ryukyu Kempo, he also acknowledges that the name is a generic one, almost like saying "I teach Jujitsu," or "I teach Karate." Like I said I was a long time Dilmmanite and left for reasons which I will keep to myself, since the purpose of this discussion is not to bash other martial artists. As a Dillmanite, none of my rank certificates, kyu or dan, ever said Ryukyu Kempo on them. They all said that I had received my rank in either "martial arts of Okinawan origin" or "karate of Okinawan origin." Now, to answer the question of the core curriculm, I know that all of the kata which Dillman teaches (or at least the ones I learned from him) are of Okinawan origin. However, he was always very open about the fact that he does not teach them in the same order as was traditionally done on Okinawa. We learned Taiyoka (I think I spelled that right) 1-3 (4 and five were saved for "extra kata"in higher ranks), then Seisan, Seieuchin, Naihanchi, Sanchin, Passai, Wansu and Kusanku to get to shodan. Then we learned the Pinnan forms (and usually Taiyoka 4-5) to get nidan. For sandan we got Naihanchi Nidan and Sandan and for Yondan we got to work out Tomari Seisan. From there it was pretty much whatever form he threw at you and that was interesting because you had people testing for the same ranks with diferent kata. I do not know if this is the sort of answer you were looking for. Let me know if I can be of any further assistance.

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#181966 - 06/30/08 08:34 AM Re: DKI = Ryukyu Kempo? [Re: whitetigerschool]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I thought it was a good answer! Learned a lot from your answer about what Grand Master Dillman does and how and when he labels what he teaches. It actually makes me feel better about him and the Ryukyu Kenpo connection. I suspected something along that line, but not with as much honesty as you explained it.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#181967 - 06/30/08 04:09 PM Re: DKI = Ryukyu Kempo? [Re: underdog]
whitetigerschool Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 15
No problem. As for the honesty of it, an old Karate teacher of mine gave me three pieces of advice that have forever impacted my life. One of them was "Honesty is always the best policy. Some people will tell you otherwise, but they are being very honest. If you ever find a situation in which honesty is not the best policy, then you need to take a different look at the situation."

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