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#180513 - 08/26/05 07:12 AM Re: Nunchaku Kata???? [Re: Kintama]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

I'm still looking into that, progress is slow. but if karate was reserved for upper-class, how do you explain the formation of naha-te? was it simply money that gave dock workers interest in learning the art enough to stowaway on a ship to China to seek additional training?





This approach is to simplistic regarding development of Naha-te. What bugs me are contradictions and seeming coincidences that make me suspicious of the simplistic approach on Naha-te's history. Kanryo Higashiaonna was of lower gentry class. There is the tradition of bu bun ryu do (academic study and martial arts are one path). Most of his students became succesfull in art/bussines/education.
The Kojo family studied the same style as was his nephew Kanyo Higaonna as was Norisato. (and these were welthy family with high connections). The dock worker theory just doesn't fit. I 'll start a new thread on the karate forum this weekend regarding the contradictions I've encountered and we can share some views regarding.

Regarding nunchaku, I have been told that it was devloped as a weapon for woman. Now as there is not much talk about woman in Okinawa's MA tradition, it maybe was not persued like tonfa to create kata however it's history is from late 1600. It was only with people like Matayoshi that the art is preserved mid 20th century so they created kata and hojo-undo to preserve the techniques but orginally it was a womans weapon.

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#180514 - 08/26/05 08:43 AM Re: Nunchaku Kata???? [Re: Victor Smith]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear Victor:

I had been rereading OKINAWA- STORY OF AN ISLAND PEOPLE and was repeatedly stunned at the history as compared to the MA oral tradition.

For instance, prior to the 14th century the bood suggests that the Okinawan people were just plain primitive. It seems that the first real boost to the culture came with the families sent to Okinawa by the Ming Dyn to enhance Okinawa as a Ming outpost.(BTW: I think the same thing can be said about the former island of Formosa-- now Taiwan.) The mixing of the Chinese boxing and the indigenous To-De produced what would later be called Okinawa-te.

Now the reason I mentioned all of that is to say this. One theme that seems to get little discussion is the role of Okinawa as a base for Wa-Ko predations on the coast of Ming China. In fact the kata "Cinto" is apparently named for a "sailor" ("pirate") who was taking a momentary respite. My guess is that contributing factor to the development of Karate in Okinawa may have been as a kind of local "street-fighting" art that folks engaged in Wa-ko-type activities would have found it good to know. I think this would go a long way towards explaining why so many of the Kobudo weapons are effectively implements one might find in daily living instead of actual weapons in the military sense. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce


Edited by glad2bhere (08/26/05 10:35 AM)

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#180515 - 08/26/05 08:48 AM Re: Nunchaku Kata???? [Re: Victor Smith]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
This thread is fascinating...thank you all for redeeming (derailing!) what might have been another less than useful thread.

Mr. Smith, may a newbie ask a question? It would seem from what I read that the history/development of kata and nunchaku might be two different topics. Focusing on nunchaku alone, the moment I learned the basics I started to think about Surachin (sp?)...or flexible/rope type of weapons. In your opinion, could it be possible that nunchaku were simply tools...and beyond teaching the basic movements/techniques/physics they were still viewed as 'primitive' by the more educated/semi-elites that were knowledgable in the Chinese traditions? That would account for no grand katas.

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#180516 - 08/26/05 09:25 AM Re: Nunchaku Kata???? [Re: harlan]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
Yes most sources point to the nunchaku having been part of a rice flail or a horse bridal. There are some books on okinwan karate that show both versions. They dont look anything at all like the modern nunchaku , but could still be used as such.
The other orgin theory of this weapon is that a chinese general was a master of the staff. It broke in half during training so he attached the two pieces with horse hair. His name was something close to Nunchaku so that was how it got its name.
Of course these are just theories. However if you want to see te nunchaku being used as a rice flail(however the stick is a bit longer), watch the movie the Seven Samurai. There is a scene where some peasants are farming and using this tool.
_________________________
There is always someone who knows more, and noone who knows it all....

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#180517 - 08/26/05 09:51 AM Re: Nunchaku Kata???? [Re: Victor Smith]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Thank-you all for the corrections, clarifications.
my head hurts. I had an easier time learning differential equations - history was never my strength, I need to read more...one thing that is reminded from this exercise is why there are so many overly-simplistic romantic tales of the origins of kobudo and karate out there...the info is so scattered and painfully incomplete, that it's just easier for a person not willing/able to do the research to just select the source/opinion which best suits the image of their particular spin on an art. versions of history can only be proven unlikely and is rarely definitive...thats what is making my head feel like it got tagged

on topic: someone was asking about a good/cool nunchaku kata?
not sure about the 'cool' or 'good' but here you go:
http://karate.dhs.org/kata/nunchaku.htm

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#180518 - 08/26/05 11:08 AM Re: Nunchaku Kata???? [Re: Kintama]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Unfortunately there are too many books and too many theories, to simply know which are real. In time one begins to question most simple answers and replace the question with the answer, this cannot be proven, for it can there would be no question.

The only value to trying to understand the past is not to explain it, but rather can we use it to guide our future, or learn how not knowing the answer is an answer too.

Okinwawa, because of its location was a shipping hub across the entire Orient.

The nunchaku was not an Okinawan invention, it was and is found in many cultures. Perhaps they got it from Okinwawa. Perhaps Okinawa got it from elsewhere. With no answer, we just look at its existence. And with a tradition stating there were no old time nunchaku kata, that seems to just be the way it was.

The past 100 years many things changed, Perhaps for better, perhaps just for neutral change, perhaps for worse. Hard to know. But we can accurately state development of things like nunchaku kata were new, and not the true past. And that's all that means. New does not mena bad, just that it wasn't the old way.

On the whole I don't see much serious Okinawan Nunchaku tradition, just there was something. Of course I've seen people who spent literally years making it something else, and are very good at that they do. The issue is whether that skill enahnces true karate, and of course the answer can only be personal.

All we can do is look as clearly as possible and wonder.

Being accurate is a novelty in itself, IMO.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#180519 - 08/26/05 11:43 PM Re: Nunchaku Kata???? [Re: glad2bhere]
b_d_41501 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 67
Loc: US
I have nothing against books. I have nothing against any sort of information, all I'm wanting is everyone's opinions of which information to use. I'm a beginner with the weapons and kung fu altogether. How about some titles for some of those books??

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#180520 - 08/27/05 12:49 AM Re: Nunchaku Kata???? [Re: b_d_41501]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
it was like magic...I went to www.google.com and typed in "nunchaku books" and it returned some 47,700 links to...imagine this: nunchaku books!

http://www.martialartsgear.com/Books/Nunchauku_Books/Nunchauku_Books.shtml
http://www.gungfu.com/cart-htm/media_books_weapons.htm
.
.
.
hundreds of more links. but which books are 'good'? The logical thing would be to research which artist you'd want to learn from, and then look at the reviews for his books.

what you'll find out (and the reason why people are not answering your question directly) is that even after buying a library of do-it-yourself-kobudo books and trying to mimic the frames - you'll never be able to learn what is between those frames (even in video). It is a one-dimensional leaning tool. Many of books/videos are marketed as complete learning systems, because guess why...anyone...anyone...thats right Bueller, because they want your ca$h. Some of the more honest authors mention the info provided is for reference only - meaning they assume the reader already has in-person training from a qualified instructor.

people aren't ignoring you, they just don't want to necessarally condone something that they don't believe in (ie: instruction thru media) and do not wish to stray people wrong, so the best thing to do is be silent or change the subject when someone naively asks a topic question such as yours, which by the way was originally asking for links, not books.

hope that clears some things up for you.

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#180521 - 08/27/05 05:11 PM Re: Nunchaku Kata???? [Re: Kintama]
b_d_41501 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 67
Loc: US
Hope this clears some things up for you, I don't particularly enjoy all the smart-@$$ remarks from people on here. People who, get this, happen to not be as skilled as some of you tend to ask for help from time to time. I asked a simple question and, yet again, the millions of philosophy posts come flying my way and then I get a post from someone who "clears it up for me" by telling me to use Google. Guess what genius, just using Google doesn't tell me how good a book is, does it? That's supposed to be the purpose of this forum, people to direct me to the proper information. Throw me a frickin' bone here.........dumb@$$

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#180522 - 08/27/05 05:36 PM Re: Nunchaku Kata???? [Re: b_d_41501]
glad2bhere Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 663
Loc: Lindenhurst, Illinois USA
Dear B-D:

Thank you for putting this in perspective from your point of view. Perhaps some Class A information is due you.

You may not realize it, but in asking your question, you inquiry comes under the eyes of people who have quite a bit of time in the MA. I am familiar with, for instance, Mr. Victor Smith from other discussion Nets and the fact that he would take any time at all from an exceptionally busy schedule tells me you are one lucky person.

Something else to consider is that not everyone here responds just to address your particular issue. Some people develop sub-dialogues and ask/answer questions that are peripheral to the major question you pose. Consider this an additional un-requested blessing.

Lastly, whatever your particular value-system regarding the MA, you will find that in the future, discussion of some aspect of MA devoid of philosophical and historic context is not unlike purchasing a fast-food sandwich only to find that it is only bread and condiments. Unfortunately, that portion which you originally inquired about is only a small (very small) part of a much bigger picture. Just some thoughts.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

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