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#179931 - 09/11/05 02:49 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: Gula]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Hello, please don't call me a troll. I stated my honest opinion. I don't know why you asked me to sign in, I was signed in and my name is displayed clearly in the box to the top left of my post.

Please do name one technique from the BJJ curiculum that deals with disarming a knife or stick weilding an attacker.

While it's obviously extremely dangerous to do so while unarmed, as far as I know there is NO techniques that deal with this in BJJ. There are many other arts out there that do contain disarming techniques.

There is always danger, sometimes you simply do not have anything you can use as a weapon on you. So having knowledge and experience in those types of techniques is a hell of a lot better than nothing if you have no other options left.

There are more than 30 Japanese martial arts that I can think of that have muto dori techniques (disarming attacker while unarmed). And I'm sure there are hundreds of other styles of martial arts that include similar techniques.
If knife/sword/gun/stick disarms were so useless they would never have been developed and certainly wouldn't still be taught today.

Please do not turn this into a BJJ versus Traditional arts pissing match. That horse is dead and beaten to glue. I am not interested.

>A skilled grappler isn't going to be the one with his back against the surface of the asphalt or concrete. It's going to be the guy who has no grappling skill. <

This is an assumption you've made, one paragraph after criticizing me for making a more realistic assumption. There is no way you expect me to believe anyone can fully control what an attacker is or is not going to do. Especially an armed attacker. In my mind an ATM robbery is probably one of the most likely scenarios a martial artist will face should they have an armed opponent encounter.

Please tell me how in the world anyone with no disarming experience whatsoever is going to get an attacker with a knife against the wall in such a situation. That's just rediculous. You cannot expect to wing it with no previous muto dori experience and survive. You're going to get stabbed!

The real issue I have with BJJ is the attitudes of so many practicioners. The style of training encourages strong competition, which is ok. But it encourages ARROGANCE, confidence in ones abilities even if they do not have such abilities. I posted earlier, BJJ works GREAT in certain situations. It works GREAT in sport matches where there are rules on what can and cannot be done. It also works GREAT when you are dealing with one unarmed attacker, or where you have the ability to regain your footing quickly in the case of multiple opponents.

It does NOT work great outside of these situations. You cannot convince me or anyone else that it does. Don't be overconfident.

By the way, I did not mean BJJ is not an art, but it feel it's more of a sport art than a self defense art. If this weren't the case we wouldn't see it so often in sporting art events.

BJJ is NOT the end-all be-all martial art. To treat it as such is EXTREMELY dangerous, and I don't understand why you defend it like it is.

>The training a person does HAS to be sportive in nature - though this has NOTHING to do with "rules".<

The 'real resistance' argument is so old and tiresome. I don't know what arts you are comparing to, but every art I've studied has 'real resistance' as part of the training, in the form of randori. I'm sorry if you think the resistance is fake. I can suggest you find a better dojo or train harder.

You have with this statement, re-written several thousand years of documented warriorship history. I was never aware that real fighters were only good solely based on their sporting, athletic natures, throughout all history and even today. I am sure someone like Unsui Manaka would be interested in hearing why you think so.

I am not another TMA guy with an agenda. But judging from posts I've seen from you over the years I'd say you have an unhealthy beef with non-bjj arts. And with the statement I quoted from you above, it looks like you're taking it way too far. Knock it off and get back to reality. There is more to the martial arts world than brazilian jujutsu.

I find it unfortunate you resulted to personal attacks by the end of your post, are you not familiar with the rules of this forum? Please learn to check your temper.

By the way, I don't know all -that- much about bjj, but I was under the impression that it was developed primarily from kodokan judo. Does that not automatically put it into the sport art category?

Some instructors may teach it differently, in a more self defense oriented way, I don't know.

That's all for now..

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#179932 - 09/11/05 02:59 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: paradoxbox]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Just to sumarize for those people who don't like reading my encyclopaedia length post,

I think that BJJ is a great art for your average run of the mill 1 on 1 fight with no weapons and friends involved.

I don't think it's a great art when there is a weapon involved (even if you are armed too, BJJ doesn't teach how to use it properly, so you won't be much better off than the bad guy). I don't think it's great if there is a chance more people could attack you.

I also stick to my belief that it's somewhat unsafe to physically hit hard ground while taking someone down. It's easy to pawn this off but take downs don't always go perfect and the possibility to hurt yourself is amplified if you hit something on concrete. Land on your knee the wrong way and your kneecap is shattered. It doesn't take much for that to happen. Land on your shoulder and your AC could tear.

For some situations it's a great solution. For others, it clearly is not, and I find it silly that people try to defend it as the ultimate solution to almost all violent encounters.

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#179933 - 09/11/05 03:24 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: paradoxbox]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Paradoxbox -

Quote:

Please do name one technique from the BJJ curiculum that deals with disarming a knife or stick weilding an attacker.




Check the Gracie Jujitsu basics DVD. They do a (short) section on dealing with club attacks from different ranges.

Quote:

While it's obviously extremely dangerous to do so while unarmed, as far as I know there is NO techniques that deal with this in BJJ. There are many other arts out there that do contain disarming techniques.




Again, you are WRONG. See above. Please do not make assumptions about an art that you know NOTHING about.

Quote:

There is always danger, sometimes you simply do not have anything you can use as a weapon on you. So having knowledge and experience in those types of techniques is a hell of a lot better than nothing if you have no other options left.




Sounds like a good reason in favor of learning BJJ.

Quote:

There are more than 30 Japanese martial arts that I can think of that have muto dori techniques (disarming attacker while unarmed). And I'm sure there are hundreds of other styles of martial arts that include similar techniques.
If knife/sword/gun/stick disarms were so useless they would never have been developed and certainly wouldn't still be taught today.




You have got to be kidding me. Sword disarms? You question the need for groundfighting (which happens all the time), but emphasize the need for SWORD disarms?

??????????????????????



>A skilled grappler isn't going to be the one with his back against the surface of the asphalt or concrete. It's going to be the guy who has no grappling skill. <

Quote:

his is an assumption you've made, one paragraph after criticizing me for making a more realistic assumption. There is no way you expect me to believe anyone can fully control what an attacker is or is not going to do. Especially an armed attacker. In my mind an ATM robbery is probably one of the most likely scenarios a martial artist will face should they have an armed opponent encounter.




Now YOU are making assumptions. Again, your argument is actually in favor of groundfighting training. The more you know, the better chance you have of "fully controlling an attacker".

Quote:

Please tell me how in the world anyone with no disarming experience whatsoever is going to get an attacker with a knife against the wall in such a situation. That's just rediculous. You cannot expect to wing it with no previous muto dori experience and survive. You're going to get stabbed!




I hate to break it to you....but even with all your disarm training, it is VERY likely you WILL GET STABBED ANYWAY. Most long term MA are aware of this.

Quote:

The real issue I have with BJJ is the attitudes of so many practicioners. The style of training encourages strong competition, which is ok. But it encourages ARROGANCE, confidence in ones abilities even if they do not have such abilities. I posted earlier, BJJ works GREAT in certain situations. It works GREAT in sport matches where there are rules on what can and cannot be done. It also works GREAT when you are dealing with one unarmed attacker, or where you have the ability to regain your footing quickly in the case of multiple opponents.




Ahhh....the truth finally comes out. You have a personal dislike for BJJ people, and you are allowing that to cloud your judgement about the effectiveness of the art. Why don't you actually LEARN some BJJ and let us know what you think of it then?

Quote:

It does NOT work great outside of these situations. You cannot convince me or anyone else that it does. Don't be overconfident.




Wow! Who is assuming or being over-confident now? You have how much training in BJJ to say it does or does not work?

Quote:

By the way, I did not mean BJJ is not an art, but it feel it's more of a sport art than a self defense art. If this weren't the case we wouldn't see it so often in sporting art events.




You are not getting that the delivery system of BJJ is the SAME either way. An armbar on the street will be just as efective in the ring - and vice versa.

Quote:

BJJ is NOT the end-all be-all martial art. To treat it as such is EXTREMELY dangerous, and I don't understand why you defend it like it is.




Who are you refering to? No one has said BJJ is the ultimate anything. All we have said is that it is a very efective art - which it is.


Quote:

By the way, I don't know all -that- much about bjj,




Truest thing you have said yet so far in this thread.

Quote:

but I was under the impression that it was developed primarily from kodokan judo. Does that not automatically put it into the sport art category?




Another veiled attempt to equate "sport" with "ineffective for SD". Equally tired argument.

Quote:

Some instructors may teach it differently, in a more self defense oriented way, I don't know.




Why don't you find out instead of blathering on about it when you don't know?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#179934 - 09/11/05 03:48 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: MattJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Sorry, but if kodokan ju-jitsu/judo, whatever you call it was being used by the Japanese police force in the early half of 20th century then how could it be called a 'sport art'? Therefore if BJJ developed from it (developed into what? A harder form, perhaps?) why does this automatically categorise it as a sport?
Incidentally, if I study sport swimming, does this mean I won't be able to swim in a real-life situation?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#179935 - 09/11/05 03:53 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: trevek]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Yawn. Mud slinging.

Anyways, I'm done with this thread, you are not capable of having thought out discussion without bringing it to personal attacks.

For an example of why sword disarms are still useful take a look in some newspaper archives. In the last few years there have been dozens of sword attacks, most of them fatal. Swords can also include machetes, and the movements of a sword can be likened to the movements of a baseball bat and crowbar.

Since personal attacks seem to be the way of this thread, I guess you guys just couldn't figure it out because your narrow track minds are unopen to anything other than BJJ.

Have fun fellas.

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#179936 - 09/11/05 03:59 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: MattJ]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Ditto what Matt and John said. What I don't get is that both Matt and I are more karate trained than anything else, but instead of making these silly statements...we actually joined grappling schools.

I mean honestly, if someone is going to make a comment about another art, at least try it..explore it...and then come back with your appreciation or lack there of for your experience.

When comments like this get batted about, you kind of think of a movie critic bashing a film he has never seen.

-B

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#179937 - 09/11/05 04:13 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: paradoxbox]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Hello, please don't call me a troll. I stated my honest opinion. I don't know why you asked me to sign in, I was signed in and my name is displayed clearly in the box to the top left of my post.




I was stating my opinion as well.

Quote:


Please do name one technique from the BJJ curiculum that deals with disarming a knife or stick weilding an attacker.




The Russian two-on-one that I have integrated (from wrestling) into the curriculum that I have. From the two on one, you can hyperextend the arm (pain, damage, etc.). That's one.

Quote:

While it's obviously extremely dangerous to do so while unarmed, as far as I know there is NO techniques that deal with this in BJJ. There are many other arts out there that do contain disarming techniques.




I'm betting that they're none that actually work.

Quote:

There is always danger, sometimes you simply do not have anything you can use as a weapon on you. So having knowledge and experience in those types of techniques is a hell of a lot better than nothing if you have no other options left.




You're wanting to believe in those techniques. Those techniques are usually trained with complete compliance on the part of the training partners and will NEVER work against a real attacker with a weapon. You're delusional if you believe otherwise.

Quote:


There are more than 30 Japanese martial arts that I can think of that have muto dori techniques (disarming attacker while unarmed). And I'm sure there are hundreds of other styles of martial arts that include similar techniques.




And those techniques are all practiced in the way I previously described. They won't work when the pressure is on. Plain and simple.

Quote:


If knife/sword/gun/stick disarms were so useless they would never have been developed and certainly wouldn't still be taught today.




Sure they would. They're taught because they're passing on some 'art'. Doesn't mean they work! There's a difference between demo martial arts and functional martial arts. Don't confuse the two.

Quote:


Please do not turn this into a BJJ versus Traditional arts pissing match. That horse is dead and beaten to glue. I am not interested.




You're MORE than interested. That's what you're doing by coming here and bashing BJJ. Er....I meant "giving your 'opinion'".

Quote:


>A skilled grappler isn't going to be the one with his back against the surface of the asphalt or concrete. It's going to be the guy who has no grappling skill. <

This is an assumption you've made, one paragraph after criticizing me for making a more realistic assumption. There is no way you expect me to believe anyone can fully control what an attacker is or is not going to do. Especially an armed attacker. In my mind an ATM robbery is probably one of the most likely scenarios a martial artist will face should they have an armed opponent encounter.




First: A person without grappling skill is (99% of the time) going to be outclassed by a competent grappler when a fight goes into a grapple. Believe whatever the hell you want. It's no skin off MY ass.

Second, I'm not going to be FIGHTING ANYONE WITH A WEAPON - I'm going to be RUNNING! There is NO martial art (unless you're delusional and believe otherwise) that effectively deals with weapons. Life isn't Remo Williams.

Quote:


Please tell me how in the world anyone with no disarming experience whatsoever is going to get an attacker with a knife against the wall in such a situation. That's just rediculous. You cannot expect to wing it with no previous muto dori experience and survive. You're going to get stabbed!




First of all, disarms aren't anything I personally believe in. They're not realistic. The correct choice is to escape, run away, or whatever. Fighting someone with a knife (who uses knives these days when guns are available??) is suicide.

Quote:


The real issue I have with BJJ is the attitudes of so many practicioners.




Like YOUR attitude?

Most BJJ guys I know are cool as hell. I don't see ANY attitude from the majority of them that I know and have trained with. They're only interested in reality training over theoretical, compliant training from compliant training partners. They're interested in pursuing the truth in combat - not what someone THINKS is the truth or SAYS is the truth.

I really don't see how your attitude is any different. The way you come across is nothing but hateful (read, FEARFUL) of Brazilian jiu-jitsu. Maybe if you'd own up to the fact that you're pushing an agenda, we could get somewhere. Right now the only thing you're trying to do is place ALL BJJ practitioners into a box. That won't cut it around here pal.

It might be helpful for you to understand the differences between an "sport" and a "delivery system" -- and the human beings that practice them.

Quote:


The style of training encourages strong competition, which is ok. But it encourages ARROGANCE, confidence in ones abilities even if they do not have such abilities.




I disagree. Arrogance does NOT come from any art where you get your ass handed to you on a daily basis - as is the case within BJJ. Within that art, you get beat CONSTANTLY by the higher skilled practitioners. How does that create arrogance? You're still trying to lump all BJJ practitioners into a "group". What about the arrogant TMA practitioners?? Are you suggesting here that there are none?

Quote:


I posted earlier, BJJ works GREAT in certain situations. It works GREAT in sport matches where there are rules on what can and cannot be done. It also works GREAT when you are dealing with one unarmed attacker, or where you have the ability to regain your footing quickly in the case of multiple opponents.




BJJ works as the individual works and decides to work. You are saying, "BJJ works when......"

That is implying that a "style" does the fighting for the individual. Free thinking individuals are the one's who are doing the fighting. They make decisions based on circumstances just like everyone else. I'm a BJJ guy who would never be stupid enough to fight an armed attacker or a gang. Who in their "right minds" WOULD be stupid enough? You?

Quote:


It does NOT work great outside of these situations. You cannot convince me or anyone else that it does. Don't be overconfident.




I think that YOU are the one overconfident! YOU are the one believing the "mystical powers" of martial arts enabling you to defeat armed attackers and gangs. You're not really that delusional are you? Tell me you aren't so I won't feel I'm wasting my time debating with an idiot.

Quote:


By the way, I did not mean BJJ is not an art, but it feel it's more of a sport art than a self defense art. If this weren't the case we wouldn't see it so often in sporting art events.




Well, you're wrong. An art is an art. I train the art outside of a rules parameter. Please tell me how that is sport oriented?

And the reason you SEE it in sporting events is because it is FUNCTIONAL! Make no mistake about it. It's used because it............................................works.

Quote:


BJJ is NOT the end-all be-all martial art. To treat it as such is EXTREMELY dangerous, and I don't understand why you defend it like it is.




I defend my art against ridiculous statements and ill-informed opinions - such are your's are.

Quote:


>The training a person does HAS to be sportive in nature - though this has NOTHING to do with "rules".<

The 'real resistance' argument is so old and tiresome. I don't know what arts you are comparing to, but every art I've studied has 'real resistance' as part of the training, in the form of randori. I'm sorry if you think the resistance is fake. I can suggest you find a better dojo or train harder.








I'm not saying the resistance is fake at every school. It is at many. However, the resistance at ALL BJJ schools is completely for real and there are no exceptions.

Quote:


You have with this statement, re-written several thousand years of documented warriorship history. I was never aware that real fighters were only good solely based on their sporting, athletic natures, throughout all history and even today. I am sure someone like Unsui Manaka would be interested in hearing why you think so.




Tell ya what....if your demi god (small g) "Unsui Manaka" didn't train athletically, he wouldn't be functional and a WHITE belt in BJJ could kick his ass and tap him out like a baby.

Quote:


I am not another TMA guy with an agenda. But judging from posts I've seen from you over the years I'd say you have an unhealthy beef with non-bjj arts. And with the statement I quoted from you above, it looks like you're taking it way too far. Knock it off and get back to reality. There is more to the martial arts world than brazilian jujutsu.




I have a "beef" with any art that isn't trained alive. WHY? Because I'm tired of seeing people sold bullshit. I'm tired of people being told something is effective training and it IS not. Alive martial art, I have NO beef with. Sounds to me like you're defending a dead martial art or an art that isn't trained in an alive manner. If that isn't the case, then I have no beef with that.

But you DO have an agenda. That much is obvious.

Quote:


I find it unfortunate you resulted to personal attacks by the end of your post, are you not familiar with the rules of this forum? Please learn to check your temper.




Pal, at the end of my post, I asked a question. Here is that question again:

Quote:

Let me guess, you're a white belt in a TMA McDojo???




So....you take that as a personal attack? Whatever.


Quote:


By the way, I don't know all -that- much about bjj




You didn't have to tell me that -- it's obvious.

Quote:

...but I was under the impression that it was developed primarily from kodokan judo. Does that not automatically put it into the sport art category?




There you go again proving my point. Obviously you aren't aware at how JUDO has changed over the years. You also can't (for some reason) understand the differences between a "sport" and a "delivery system". BJJ isn't really a great deal like judo, anymore than one striking art is different from another striking art. Techniques are all the same. We only have two arms and two legs. There are only so many ways you can hit, kick and grapple another human being.


Quote:

Some instructors may teach it differently, in a more self defense oriented way, I don't know.

That's all for now..




Good. Come on back.....I'll be eagerly waiting for you.


-John

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#179938 - 09/11/05 04:57 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: JKogas]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
I won't comment. JKogas and others have addressed this as comprehensively as I could have hoped to. I really think this thread has come to it's ultimate conclusion. I am locking it down. The myopic tendency of some people to conveniently place BJJ in a box when it suits them, is simply annoying at this point.

If someone has a good reason to open it back up, PM me.
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