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#179921 - 09/10/05 10:21 PM Re: BJJ reality check
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Anonymous,

Again....folk trying to pigeon hole other folk. Look, there is as much a chance for a grappler to do what he wants than not. Don't casually dismiss what a BJJ player might or might not know with respect to any other range of fighting.

Just as I don't like folk making blanket statements about other practioners and arts, its hard to fathom where some folk can't see the results of BJJ with respect to any type of fighting one can think of.

Sure, the fights in the player, but noting the background of BJJ and its use in a multitude of hard, sporting arenas, and the education it can give per ground fighting, statements and questions like this make absolutely no sense.

-B

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#179922 - 09/11/05 03:53 AM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: butterfly]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
The thing that so many people forget is that it's extremely unlikely you are going to encounter another trained martial artist in a fight out on the streets. What crack head is going to have enough MA experience to do anything to you? So it just turns into a pissing contest.

I've said it before, I don't think going to the ground on sidewalk or a street is a smart thing at all. I won't give the stupid excuse of needles and broken glass (come on) but for one thing hitting concrete hurts like hell and when you are pumped with adrenaline it is possible you will hurt yourself when you go to the ground. All it takes is a small thump of your head on the concrete and it's lights out for you.

I also don't think BJJ gives a good enough base for weapons disarming by itself to be considered really useful in situations where weapons are involved. Used in combination with disarming techniques from another art however, in the right circumstances BJJ would be as good as any other martial art for disabling an opponent.

In my view Brazillian Ju Jutsu was designed as a SPORT first and foremost. People who train in it should not forget that. Don't try to take a BMW and use it as a dump truck! BJJ works extremely well within certain rules and situations.

However it was not developed to deal with the realities you are most likely to face if someone tries to mug you, rob you at an ATM, steal your purse/wallet, or break into your house.

It was developed for a certain kind of competition and in recent years some people are trying to pawn it off as a pure self defense system. The way BJJ goes about combat is totally unsafe for dealing with armed opponents, as far as I know it teaches no weapons. Forget about it! It's not a purely self defense oriented system!

My opinion is that it's a good art for self defense if there is only one unarmed attacker, or you plan on performing the techniques standing (breaking their bones and dropping the person) or you are able to perform a technique extremely rapidly and stand back up again.

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#179923 - 09/11/05 07:28 AM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: butterfly]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
im mr anonymous,i dont know why it came up with that name.
anyhow...ill repeat,im just asking has anyone been on the floor and what happened .for real.its not dissing bjj or art bashing.
ill take it most havnt.
if its a no then how the hell can people comment.
im not going to listen to knife tactics ,strike tactics OR grappling tactics to people who havnt been there ...simple.
wheres reality...iv talked about reality before then people say there in it for the training....then these same people offer there say when it comes to reality talks....eh?
ill repeat, im not art bashing..
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#179924 - 09/11/05 12:43 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: paradoxbox]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Para and Matax,

While I agree with you on certain points, especially the idea that you will probably not confront a trained martial artist as an antagonist, you are never the less trying to place a structure around the education of all BJJ practioners. This is similar to what some grapplers do when they confront karate or aikido folk. I know one particular Aikidoka who had practiced with the Gracies and is a good grappler, who also trained in boxing, Tang Soo Do, and kickboxing. He currently teaches law enforcement and Aikido. He has dan ranks in several arts and has been training martial arts for over 50 years.

What I am trying to say is that just because he considers himself and Aikidoka doesn't take away from what he knows or has put into his practical experience using his art. One does a disservice to any martial artist when you try to limit his study from outside his personal experience. You just don't know how a particular individual trains all that he knows, despite primarily calling himself a particular stylist. There are variations in training, including within the BJJ ranks and their different schools.

The emphasis in BJJ is competition, much like Judo, for the reason that this is considered the primary form of reinforcing usable technique in a safe environment. It is a training paradigm that can be measured. And in this measurement, one can more accurately gauge performance compared with other arts that may have other criteria for advancement.

The other situation is that if a confrontation does go to the ground...isn't it better to be able to have knowledge and skill to remove one from that range. Don't think that if three guys come at a BJJer his immediate reaction is to go to the ground, but if taken there...my bet he would understand better how to get back up.

-B

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#179925 - 09/11/05 01:00 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: butterfly]
Anonymous
Unregistered


yea i agree...grappling has got to be done to round it all off.
i know that in the knife fighting art they start with knifes and only do open hand stuff alot later....strikers move to grappling and locks and takedowns later too.....maybe bjj goes to striking later on too,,at high grade level....?

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#179926 - 09/11/05 01:42 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: paradoxbox]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

The thing that so many people forget is that it's extremely unlikely you are going to encounter another trained martial artist in a fight out on the streets. What crack head is going to have enough MA experience to do anything to you? So it just turns into a pissing contest.



paradoxbox:

Its an assumption that you're going to encounter another martial artist on the street. It's also an assumption that you won't. It's still another assumption that the person you may encounter won't be able to fight. It's yet another assumption that the person won't be tough or will just quit and have no heart. Plus, there are a lot of former (and current) wrestlers out there as well. Just because someone isn't a "martial artist" doesn't mean that they can't be tough or formidable.

Quote:


I've said it before, I don't think going to the ground on sidewalk or a street is a smart thing at all. I won't give the stupid excuse of needles and broken glass (come on) but for one thing hitting concrete hurts like hell and when you are pumped with adrenaline it is possible you will hurt yourself when you go to the ground. All it takes is a small thump of your head on the concrete and it's lights out for you.




A skilled grappler isn't going to be the one with his back against the surface of the asphalt or concrete. It's going to be the guy who has no grappling skill.

Quote:

I also don't think BJJ gives a good enough base for weapons disarming by itself to be considered really useful in situations where weapons are involved.




I'm of the opinion that NO martial art addresses this subject. Please don't tell me that you think otherwise.


Quote:


Used in combination with disarming techniques from another art however, in the right circumstances BJJ would be as good as any other martial art for disabling an opponent.




I know of no martial art that is functional when addressing weapons disarms (when empty handed).

Quote:

In my view Brazillian Ju Jutsu was designed as a SPORT first and foremost. People who train in it should not forget that. Don't try to take a BMW and use it as a dump truck! BJJ works extremely well within certain rules and situations.




You're plain wrong. It's an "ART" first and foremost. It's obvious that you know NOTHING about BJJ. Come back when you have been "educated" (by a good BJJ guy as well).

People confuse an art/delivery system with a sport all the time. Thinking through it a little more will generally (if you're reasonably intelligent) show you what the differences are. It will show why functional delivery systems can be competed as a sport AND as a fighting art. Functional delivery systems aren't one diminsional - in the way so many traditional or "Combat" systems ARE.

And by the way, people who train in those arts should remember that!

Quote:


However it was not developed to deal with the realities you are most likely to face if someone tries to mug you, rob you at an ATM, steal your purse/wallet, or break into your house.




No, it was developed to deal with people who are fighting you for "real". Not pretend. Real resistance.


Quote:


It was developed for a certain kind of competition and in recent years some people are trying to pawn it off as a pure self defense system. The way BJJ goes about combat is totally unsafe for dealing with armed opponents, as far as I know it teaches no weapons. Forget about it! It's not a purely self defense oriented system!




Stop trolling. If you want to post something again, you'd better log in. You're just an another TMA guy with an agenda.

Quote:


My opinion is that it's a good art for self defense if there is only one unarmed attacker, or you plan on performing the techniques standing (breaking their bones and dropping the person) or you are able to perform a technique extremely rapidly and stand back up again.




You must believe in the myths that "traditional" martial arts can turn you into Superman or something. Let me guess, you're a white belt in a TMA McDojo???


-John

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#179927 - 09/11/05 01:48 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: paradoxbox]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by paradoxbox -

Quote:

In my view Brazillian Ju Jutsu was designed as a SPORT first and foremost




Your view is quite wrong, sir. If you knew anything about the history of BJJ, you would know that it started out as a street fighting art for challenge matches in Brazil. Let's not make assumptions about things we know little about.

I agree that modern BJJ is competition oriented, but the techniques and concepts (for the most part) work the same way in sport as they would on the street.

You say the chance of running into a trained fighter is small. I agree. However, most of the fights I have ever seen or been in have in fact been one-on-one with no weapons, so your worries are equally unfounded.

And yes, I have had fights that ended up on the ground - intentionally or by accident. It is much more common than you might think.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#179928 - 09/11/05 01:50 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: JKogas]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Surely whether are not you are going to meet a trained martial artist in a situation depends what kind of company you keep and where you choose to have a fight. Are we to believe it is only non-trained idiots who go looking for a fight? I've heard of plenty of incidents where MAists have tried their skill on a local doorman at a pub/club. Another question, could an American Football player or a Rugby player take somedown easily?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#179929 - 09/11/05 02:02 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: trevek]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Surely whether are not you are going to meet a trained martial artist in a situation depends what kind of company you keep and where you choose to have a fight.




I'm of the opinion that whether a person is a martial artist or not is irrelevent. There are plenty of martial artists that can't fight. There are also non-martial artists that can. It really all comes down to whether or not one's training is athletic in nature (read, "sportive"). The training a person does HAS to be sportive in nature - though this has NOTHING to do with "rules". It's more of a quality. BJJ has that alive quality. Thats why those guys are KNOWN to kick ass! No "theory" about that. It's proven.

Quote:


Are we to believe it is only non-trained idiots who go looking for a fight? I've heard of plenty of incidents where MAists have tried their skill on a local doorman at a pub/club.




PEOPLE start fights. Trained or NOT trained has no relevence.

Quote:


Another question, could an American Football player or a Rugby player take somedown easily?




You better believe it!


-John

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#179930 - 09/11/05 02:09 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: McSensei]
Gula Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 78
I mean with no offence but thease kinda "reality topics" are kinda the waste of time that will not lead to nowhere.
If you people want to know is bjj "realistic" just take some lessons and you will see what ever it is you will see.

For my self I have seen that solely the position gaming in bjj gives preparedness to destroy your opponent if he has less experience in ground fighting.

You will learn in bjj to
shift your weight and get a good base (this is not as easy as it sounds) in the gronund and once your in position you can launch a consentrated flurry of fists at the opponent.
_________________________
No Brain, No Pain!

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