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#179901 - 08/23/05 03:40 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: Neko456]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
For what Neko said, I agree entirely. The other observation this brings that it is the person who brings the game, not the other way around.


#179902 - 08/23/05 05:58 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: Neko456]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
As a weak fighter in any dicipline could get hurt bad.

Am I just paranoid or do I see that some of these comments as veiled attempts to "cut BJJ down to size" by putting it into a box. I am staying off this thread from now on because it is rather irritating. These questions have been asked and answered ad nauseum.

Edited by Fletch1 (08/23/05 05:59 PM)

#179903 - 08/23/05 06:20 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: Fletch1]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Perhaps Fletch is right. I hadn't considered the argument about generalities while caught up on the technical merits of what folk have been posting.

I did not/ do not like to be comparmentalized by the martial art(s) I practice, I neither wish to nor hope to participate in something that does that to others or their arts. Especially where hypotheticals are exploited...not as a point of evaluating techniques, but as a way to load the game to marginalize others or highlight statements by detractors.

In any case...there were some interesting posts. Kudos to John.


#179904 - 08/23/05 10:15 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: butterfly]
Bushi_no_ki Offline

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1669
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I also have some agreement with Fletch. Someone may have already stated that BJJ has shown us much of its potential in the MMA competition ring. This isn't the time to cut BJJ "down to size", although some of its practitioners need such. It is good to put BJJ through the same ringer that every other style has had to go through.

#179905 - 08/23/05 10:21 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
JKogas Offline

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
That "ringer" you speak of isn't mere "words" (debate and simple talk - of the sort that is currently happeing here). That RINGER is intense competition. Trial by fire.

And they (BJJ guys) go through that ringer CONSTANTLY, and that's exactly WHY they are so good and so tough. They are simply used to resistance and used to fighting. Their very technique is BORN out of that resistance and that fighting. It is NOT culled from lackadaisacal "demonstrations" against half-hearted slackeys.


#179906 - 08/23/05 10:27 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: JKogas]
Bushi_no_ki Offline

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1669
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
John, which is why BJJ practitioners have such a tenable position from which to defend their style against doubt. But there are people who use such arguments and debate to try and cut down other MA styles, so that ringer isn't used to cut down BJJ so much as to check those that cut down other styles.

Other than that, I do agree, the competitors who get into a ring for a full contact/NHB competition have my respect for showing just what they are capable of dealing with.

#179907 - 08/23/05 10:48 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
JKogas Offline

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Thanks for all the replies guys. Its also stayed (mostly) civil although I agree with Fletch as well, having seen shades of trying to (as he says) "put BJJ into a box". That is to completely dehumanize the entire art.

Please note that no disrespect was intended on my part (if anyone felt disrespected). Lets keep it on the right side here guys. I have NO problems with questioning martial arts.

It always helps to bear in mind that martial arts are often more about "strategies" than they are about "techniques".



#179908 - 08/24/05 11:20 AM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: Fletch1]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree but please keep my entire reply in context as I stated.

A skilled BJJ just like a skilled Kung-fu guy could handled himself well in a streetfight and could end the fight at long range and in the clinch without a take down or using a take down. I still would perfer strikes on a downed person rather then rolling on concrete. But if you gotta roll, knowing how will save your bacon until you can get up.

Are we upset that I mentioned another art being just as good as Bjj. I don't aplogize for that its just my oppinon, yours may be different I respect that.

And I agree that any weak practiontioner or strong begininger could get wasted if he fought in the street and didn't already know how to fight.

#179909 - 08/24/05 08:55 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: McSensei]
kickcatcher Offline

Registered: 12/30/04
Posts: 200
Loc: UK

It's a question that has been asked of nearly every other kind of MA, so now it's the turn of BJJ.
How effective is BJJ on the street?
I have my own views on this and will air them soon enough, but first, I would like to hear from others.

Let's at least try to keep this polite.

Taking SD training very seriously, I’ve come to the conclusion that BJJ is VERY relevant as part of a whole, with the Vale Tudo end being moreso than the ‘pure’ BJJ. Simply put, groundfighting skills are a necessary contingency as part of a balanced and credible SD syllabus.

All this rubbish about not taking a fight to the grounds is missing the point.

Like Judo and wrestling, BJJ needs adaption, or broader worldliness at the very least, to transfer it to the street –unless you choose to leave it to chance. But that hardly makes it invalid. I also think that there are alternatives to pick up grappling-orientated groundfighting than BJJ, such as MMA (which is afterall nearly always BJJ influenced).

Irrational evaluation:
I don’t like doing grappling and/or groundfighting so I’ll rationalize why it is flawed and use that as an excuse to avoid it.

Rational evaluation:
A person with 6 months of BJJ (/MMA etc) is more likely to avoid groundfighting and/or survive better if forced into groundfighting, than someone with 6 months of mainstream punch-kick MA. All those hypothetical arguments about blades, glass, lava etc, apply equally if not moreso to mainstream quasi-traditional stand-up arts. Therefore, BJJ, or rather credible groundfighting, is relevant to SD.

#179910 - 08/24/05 09:33 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: kickcatcher]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Excellent post, KC. Summed that up very well.
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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