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#179891 - 08/21/05 07:09 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: JKogas]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
This again?

JKogas has infinitely more patience with this argument than I.

My only point is that, as much as you try to jam BJJ into your "box", it just won't fit. Enjoy your debate but don't bring it over to the BJJ forum. It's been done to death.
_________________________
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#179892 - 08/21/05 08:21 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: Fletch1]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Fletch -

It never goes away. Have you ever noticed that the argument always seems to come from those who do NOT train grappling?



-John

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#179893 - 08/21/05 09:10 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: JKogas]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
I have come to the reasoned opinion that every MA faces this question. The reason is because essentially the fighting arts are just that, FIGHTING arts.
At least by asking these questions of each others art we all have the opportunity to glimpse a little of what it's like on the other side of the fence. The more mature among us will take those glimpses and act upon them, to round off their own skills.

As for what Cord was saying, I agree entirely about the kind of stuff that goes on in the places mentioned. I live in a town called Dartford just on the outside of London. It's would be described as a suburb, but it's full of Londoner wanabees all out to prove something. If you want to eat after about 10.30pm in my town, you order a delivery or face the consequences. If you want a cab, you have to phone one or face the consequences. Sometimes though, it is unavoidable and to get in a fight in these places, especially a drawn out ground fight, wouldn't be pleasant. The number of times I've seen a crowd gather round 2 guys on the floor and just start taking swipes at both guys you wouldn't believe. There are some real cowards out there.
Having said that, if I'm in a fight on the ground and other people are taking potshots at me, I'd still rather be winning against the other guy on the floor, than losing to him as well.
_________________________
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#179894 - 08/21/05 10:02 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: McSensei]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


As for what Cord was saying, I agree entirely about the kind of stuff that goes on in the places mentioned. I live in a town called Dartford just on the outside of London. It's would be described as a suburb, but it's full of Londoner wanabees all out to prove something. If you want to eat after about 10.30pm in my town, you order a delivery or face the consequences. If you want a cab, you have to phone one or face the consequences.




Yep. I understand. Those places are everywhere. Go to ANY major city ANYWHERE and you'll find pretty much the same thing.

Most of us just move. It's a little easier.

Quote:


Sometimes though, it is unavoidable and to get in a fight in these places, especially a drawn out ground fight, wouldn't be pleasant.




Any fight would be unpleasant don't you think? I personally don't think a ground fight is all that unpleasant - but then again, that is a big part of what I train - wrestling and jiu-jitsu. The beautiful part of all of that is the complete and total dominance you can bring to bear against an opponent rather than just "going for it" toe to toe, and trading - particularly against someone bigger, with a longer reach who can get just as lucky as you and land that one shot that puts you away. That's the way that I look at it.

Quote:


The number of times I've seen a crowd gather round 2 guys on the floor and just start taking swipes at both guys you wouldn't believe.





I've seen the exact opposite happen. I've seen them MAKE ROOM for the guys and stand around watch, drinking beer. Just my views.


-John

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#179895 - 08/21/05 10:17 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: JKogas]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Its always funny how so many people see the best "counter" for Brazilian jiu-jitsu is having an army of "friends" to jump out of the bushes or from around the corner as soon as the fight hits the ground. (Or, the hope that a LOT OF NEEDLES are going to be scattered around all over the place. Ridiculous).

What martial art style is THAT, lol? The style of "A Hundred Friends".

With a horde of friends travelling around with you, you don't really NEED martial arts training do you?



-John

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#179896 - 08/21/05 11:09 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: JKogas]
Meanstreak Offline
Member

Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 236
Loc: Australia
JKogas,

Just wanted to say you've put forward some of the best points on this argument that ive read (and this must be one of the most overdone threads on the net) youve made some great points that ive not fully considered before.


Take care
Meanstreak
_________________________
Beware my flying no hands cartwheel kick of doom

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#179897 - 08/22/05 01:17 AM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: JKogas]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
JK,

Again let me re-iterate that we are not in disagreement over the value of ground skills, however your points on the simplicity of avoiding dangerous 'areas' in the UK are sadly not possible. 'Just moving' does not solve the problem as the problem will be present where you move to. Avoiding town centres late at night is by far the best answer, but then sometimes you do want to go out socialising and have a life outside your home, and when you choose to do this, the problems attached can often come and find you no matter how carefull you try and be. Like I said, different country, different culture, different set of problems.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#179898 - 08/22/05 02:47 AM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: Cord]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
The types of problems associated with the "bad" parts of town are found in any city, anywhere. Redding is something that doesn't even register on most peoples maps, yet we have over 100,000 people living in the "I5 Corridor", and there are areas that are known for trouble. If you like living, you avoid these areas at all costs. Of course, as stated, if you want to go out for a few drinks or something, that can't always be avoided. I've taken to spending more time at the bars on the west side of town, as there are fewer problems involving violence on the street, but there are still trouble spots scattered throughout the area. We also have a fairly high rate of crack and meth use here, as the outer parts of the county are completely rural, with the central corridor being more urbanized, creating the perfect breeding groung for hardcore drug culture.

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#179899 - 08/22/05 03:15 AM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
JamesLightningBolton Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 77
Loc: Victoria Australia
Back to Topic...on the street you get an armbar you snap it plain and simple...you get a choke you knock them out..once again plain and simple...you get a figure four you dislocate the shoulder.....need i say anymore, your not going to see someone come back at your who has just had their arm snapped are you, and also police look alot higher upon someone using grappling to apprehend an attacker rather than pounding them. One more point id like to make, if you cant control the situation how will you throw strikes with any power, truth is you try punch someone in control on the ground ur only going to get them angry...and alot more punches with alot more power coming down at you!

FWIW - maybe a lil off topic though...catch guys

jim

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#179900 - 08/23/05 12:28 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: McSensei]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I'd say it depends on the skill of the practictioner. BJJ works at all ranges but 1 of the ideas they teach is its safer in close, and like to work from the clinch in is sorta a basic concept IMO. A weak BJJ guy can get his lunch brought because of this close range fighting mind set, if the guys raining accurate short strikes and pushing out of the clinch making hard contact, or jumping back upper cutting on the shoots. A person not very skilled will take a beaten. Just like I've seen some high school wrestlers take trying and missing a take down, getting stomped out or punched out. Working inside has its advantages and disadvantages one is thats its not much room for mistakes or escape. And there are alot weapons to look out for, headbutts, knees, elbows, short punches, throws, takedowns gouging and spitting.

A skilled BJJ just like a skilled Kung-fu guy could handled himself well in a streetfight and could end the fight at long range and in the clinch without a take down or using a take down. I still would perfer strikes on a downed person rather then rolling on concrete. But if you gotta roll, knowing how will save your bacon until you can get up.

I'd advise always get up quickly if you can or do your damage without rolling!!!

Good Question McSensei, a weak BJJ guy could get hurt bad.
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DBAckerson

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