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#179881 - 08/21/05 05:42 AM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: McSensei]
otobeawanker Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 192
Loc: CANADA
I train MMA. One of the arts I've trained in is BJJ.

A have to agree with Cord on this one. Esentially BJJ is about taking the fight to the ground. The streets just arn't a safe place to be rolling around on the ground. Glass, needles, people stomping in, quick escape is gonna be tough if you have to stand up before you run, the view of your surroundings is not as good when your on the ground.

It's not that BJJ's not effective at beating an opponent. It's the fact that BJJ on the street can be just as dangerous to the one who uses it there.

Theres a flipside to that though. You can use your BJJ to avoid being taken to the ground by your opponent and keeping him out of the clinch range.

For the streets standup grappeling arts such as Russian Sambo may be more effective.
_________________________
To have all style is to have no style.

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#179882 - 08/21/05 09:54 AM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: otobeawanker]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I train MMA. One of the arts I've trained in is BJJ.

A have to agree with Cord on this one. Esentially BJJ is about taking the fight to the ground. The streets just arn't a safe place to be rolling around on the ground. Glass, needles, people stomping in, quick escape is gonna be tough if you have to stand up before you run, the view of your surroundings is not as good when your on the ground.




This is always the SAME argument that you hear, time and time again. First of all, fighting (for us BJJ guys) is and should be avoided. However, If I take someone to the ground, THEY'RE the one's who's back is agaginst the glass, needles, etc - not mine.

I've been around a while. I've seen a lot of miles of street. You'd think after hearing some guys talk, that you wouldn't be able to SEE asphalt because of all the needles lying around. Hell, most of the streets in my neck of the woods are fairly clean. You wouldn't want to EAT off of them but, I think you get my point. One thing to be sure of, you CAN'T dictate "where" you are going to be attacked. If you're attacked and taken down on the street, you're going to be fighting there and you'd BETTER have the ability to do so. Pluck the needles and glass out of your skin after you've survived the encounter.

Most fights don't happen on the "street" anyway. They happen in the HOME! Many times they happen in the kitchen (from what I've heard from a police officer somewhere before). They happen on front lawns, etc. Fights also happen in pool halls and OBVIOUS places where trouble can brew. That CAN mean that it's important to know where "trouble" is and avoid it.


Question for all of you: How often do you see people randomly fighting as you drive down the street? I mean, you're just out and about and as you drive, do you see people just randomly engaged in fighting -- on the STREET?

Quote:


It's not that BJJ's not effective at beating an opponent. It's the fact that BJJ on the street can be just as dangerous to the one who uses it there.




Getting your ASS kicked would be even MORE dangerous in my opinion.

Quote:


Theres a flipside to that though. You can use your BJJ to avoid being taken to the ground by your opponent and keeping him out of the clinch range.




Why keep him out of the clinch range?

Quote:


For the streets standup grappeling arts such as Russian Sambo may be more effective.




Isn't that the clinch?


-John

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#179883 - 08/21/05 10:59 AM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: McSensei]
malanr116 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 11
Loc: Indiana
Quote:

How effective is BJJ on the street?


I would say that BJJ is very effective on the street, in perfect conditions.

I will elaborate.

1. Strictly one-on-one fight.
2. If you are trained in BJJ
3. Even if your attacker is trained in BJJ
4. Your attacker is trained in another STANDING MA

IMO:

If i'm walking down the street, and somebody jumps me and takes me to the ground, the first thing on my mind is getting back up, NOT trying to "wrestle" or submit my attacker. On the street, i'm gonna get back up (if i'm on the ground) then i'm gonna procede to nutralize my attacker as quickly as i can. I'm not gonna put him in a choke and wait for him to submit. If there is one attacker on me, then the rest of his gang is right around the corner, and i do not want to be on the ground.

But i won't say that nobody should train in BJJ. I train so that i can get off the ground, not stay there.
_________________________
There are two sides to every story, choose your side. Annon

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#179884 - 08/21/05 01:10 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: malanr116]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

How effective is BJJ on the street?

I would say that BJJ is very effective on the street, in perfect conditions.




Any street fight is going to be a very IMPERFECT condition.

Quote:


I will elaborate.

1. Strictly one-on-one fight.
2. If you are trained in BJJ
3. Even if your attacker is trained in BJJ
4. Your attacker is trained in another STANDING MA




NO martial art evens the odds in multiple attacker situation. Running away can save your hide. That simply means making the decision to avoid conflict. Anyone can do this -- even BJJ guys.

Quote:

IMO:

If i'm walking down the street, and somebody jumps me and takes me to the ground, the first thing on my mind is getting back up, NOT trying to "wrestle" or submit my attacker.




Is that always the case, even when the opportunity for a joint lock is staring you in the face? IMO, if I have a golden opportunity for a joint lock or choke, I'm going for it.

Naturally, getting back up is always what you're trying to do. It is DURING that fight that potential submissions become available. Plus, it isn't always possible to "just get up".

And ALL of that IS "wrestling".

Quote:


On the street, i'm gonna get back up (if i'm on the ground) then i'm gonna procede to nutralize my attacker as quickly as i can.




That's assuming you CAN just get back up. That isn't always possible. I mean, SURE it is in a perfect world, but life isn't always perfect. That's why you train ground fighting.

Quote:


I'm not gonna put him in a choke and wait for him to submit.




Why NOT put a choke on him? Chokes render people unconscious and pretty quickly as well (if it's applied right). That IS one of the few near guaranteed fight stoppers. You're going to pass up an opportunity to choke in favor of something less guaranteed??

And what is this "waiting for him to submit"? Who would do THAT? Do you mean, you would just hold him at the edge of pain and wait for him to say "Okay.....I'll quit, I'll quit!!!".

Do you mean, you wouldn't just break his arm or dislocate his shoulder joint??? I know I would. Maybe that's just me.

Quote:


If there is one attacker on me, then the rest of his gang is right around the corner, and i do not want to be on the ground.




So, his gang is hiding around the corner eh? Where is YOUR gang then? Mine is usually with me.

Quote:

But i won't say that nobody should train in BJJ. I train so that i can get off the ground, not stay there.




Not a bad idea (getting off the ground). Sometime it CAN be the better strategy however (to stay ON the ground).

-John

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#179885 - 08/21/05 02:50 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: JKogas]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Question for all of you: How often do you see people randomly fighting as you drive down the street? I mean, you're just out and about and as you drive, do you see people just randomly engaged in fighting -- on the STREET?




i have to say I see alterctions like this on average once per 3 night shifts (thats as many as we do in one block).

British town centres are rife with this behaviour, between 11.30 pm and 2.30 am in any given town/city centre is a pretty grim scene.

i should say that my list was designed, not to diminish the value of good grappling skills, but to offer a sense of balance in the face of what often becomes 'BJJ is the daddy of all real MA' comments from its fans/practitioners. Your defense of an attack should be appropriate for the circumstances and environment, this means knowledge of both striking and grappling is vital to have a hope of success in any and all circumstances.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#179886 - 08/21/05 04:03 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: McSensei]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I suppose you may find violence such as this in some of the worse parts of the worse cities during such times of the evening.

You'd have to look hard to find it however. I've personally NEVER seen it (outside of bars....I'm talking about right out on the streets that I drive) throughout all of the cities I've lived in and have visited.

I'm not saying it doesn't or can't happen. I'm saying it's a RARITY for most of the population, if your job isn't that of a police officer. Even then, violence is found more often within dwellings.

-John

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#179887 - 08/21/05 04:36 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: JKogas]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
But as far as I can tell, the states does not have the same extent of heavy drinking culture that we have in Britain- you are lucky. I can honestly tell you that if you spent anytime around taxi ranks/late night food vendors in britain during the hours I stated, you would either be witness to, or victim of literal street violence.
My job has me driving through the centre of town post 'closing time' to reach properties under our protection, Drunken fights and violent arguments are a regular and unpleasant part of the scenery on this journey.

Different culture, different frequency.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#179888 - 08/21/05 04:49 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: Cord]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

But as far as I can tell, the states does not have the same extent of heavy drinking culture that we have in Britain- you are lucky.




No, we have the heavy CRACK and Methamphetamine culture.

Quote:


I can honestly tell you that if you spent anytime around taxi ranks/late night food vendors in britain during the hours I stated, you would either be witness to, or victim of literal street violence.




You could probably find that anywhere. However as I stated, you'd have to go LOOKING to find it. That would mean, going looking where you obviously shouldn't be. Naturally, the self preservation instinct would tell you to avoid places like that. If it's within your job description, well then you have a problem don't you?

What is it you normally see? Gunfire? In the same situations here, that's a normal part of the nighttime in the more crime-ridden areas where "street violence" is likely to occur.

-John

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#179889 - 08/21/05 04:56 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: Cord]
funstick5000 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 759
Loc: West Yorkshire, England
its true, we have a very large binge drinking promlem in the uk, last time i was out at i got started on by someone who followed me half way up a street before his friends got bored. he thought (and said repeatedly with various profanitys) i'd tried to set him on fire with a lighter i'd rigged and was messing about with. i just apologised and walked on, he still postured at mein an oh so threatening way half way up a hill.


i just realised, when people try to look 'hard' they take on the posture of male pigeons!! *cue to oldman with pic*
_________________________
Go seek the advise of a qualified instructor.

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#179890 - 08/21/05 07:05 PM Re: BJJ reality check [Re: funstick5000]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Yep, it's out there if you go looking hard enough to find it - particularly where alcohol flows freely. But that's still a sort of "out of the ordinary" thing in parts.

I drive quite a bit. I've been on the road for YEARS. During the last 8 years, I have driven approximately 350 THOUSAND miles (566 thousand kilometers). During those years on the road (all different roads), I've not seen YET, two guys out fighting randomly. Again, this isn't to say that it doesn't happen, only that you have to go into violent places to find it. If self defense is avoidance (and avoiding places like that is always the first step), then the issue of STREET fighting will rarely become a factor in one's life.

That said, if a fight happens, and it literally IS "on the asphalt of a street" (I have no numbers to tell me how often this actually happens), you're STILL likely to go to in a clinch and onto the ground. Your best option would be to RUN don't you think?

Good thread! I like where it's going so far.


-John

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